Speed

iTrader: (33)

Hey all, been a while since I've built a turbo kit so I thought I would try something a bit different. I know some don't believe it's worth it on an LS1 but I think it could add some value. Plus I want to see if I can do it!

I've looked around and there are 10000 cool turbo control products but I wanted to build something to integrate some functions I think are important and add some functionality that I think would be neat.

So far, I've built an electronic controller unit that can monitor a number of different parameters and control different peripheral devices. At least it works on the test bench so far.

I've got the device far enough along to simulate control the sequential operation of the turbocharger system, electronically control wastegate operation, control methanol and nitrous injection, control a qtec (work in progress), monitor knock and a wide band, and a bunch of other little odds and ends. I'm pretty confident in what's working so far because I've got the actual devices I'm going to control hooked up and they are operating as expected. My hope is I will be able to integrate the operation of all these inputs and functions to control how the turbo responds to various conditions.

Anyway, I've got a long way to go from a bunch of components stuck in a breadboard to something that actually works. I hope you guys enjoy the build up!

trigger1

iTrader: (28)

Good luck with the setup. I'll be subscribing to this thread looking for updates as you go!

lewish

Glad to hear that you are working on this. I have been waiting for a product like this, as are many other C5 STS TT owners, to cut down on the lag from the inherit system design. If you can pull this off, there will be $$$ in your future. Good luck! I am looking forward to your progress.

Lewis

DMH Fabrication

iTrader: (126)

Sounds like what Mazda used on the RX7s kinda. They had sequential turbos so it would spool fast and not lag. They were pretty unreliable through due to all the check valves and solenoids.

chuntington101

also the BMW 335 and 535 deisel engines are sequential as was the toyota supras. they work relly well on the diesels but i haven't heard anyhting great on gas cars.

there are lots of ways to reduce lag/spool up time on a turbo car. anti-lag, n2o, compound charging, caoting the exhaust, ball bearing cores, well matched turbos (VERY IMPORTANT), and the list goes on and on!

if you have a manual car then try looking for a WOT shift kit. they work by cutting the spark then you press the clutch. this keeps the turbos spooled inbetween shifts.

then again you you can come up with a great kit that works, i will be the first to say well done

thanks Chris.

Hype

interesting idea. I'm more interested in the electronics you talked about. I think a WOT switch to an electric cutout would be a whole lot of fun. But then again, slap a micro controller in there and do it with finesse... hahaha... but knowing me, if I did that I'd have to make it control LEDs too.. and this and that and and and.... it never ends.

chuntington101

alot of motorsport based ECU's over here give you WOT shifts and Anti-lag! have have seen/heard/felt rally cars with it and its amazing! imagine coming off the gas as having what sounds like an automatic shotgun for an exhaust! lol. then again it doesn't do your turbo(s) much good! lol

im not saying these turbo systems dont work, just saying that to design one from scratch in your own time is going to be tricky.

and if you really want a stock feel but with instand boost then fit a maggy to your turbo engine. thats the ultimate solution to combat lag! lol

Chris.

30thTA0525

iTrader: (2)

interesting.. i was reading this thinking it was a cool idea then i looked up and saw that it was my ole buddy speed.. you need too get it working so we can put one on an old white car im saving for a rainy day

Speed

iTrader: (33)

*Disclaimer - a lot of what I type in these threads is my own brainstorming. Some things might make more sense than others.

Well that is exactly it. I'm testing with several different microcontrollers right now to control various functions of the turbo system as well as monitor various aspects of the car and performance. As of right now, I can read knock and compensate. I've got three different modes of operation depending on how the user wants the system to respond.

Street - slow spool, low boost
Drag - Fast spool, high boost
Touring - Fast spool and staged respool for cornering, high boost

All of these modes are user tunable. It's got an internal electronic boost controller. The meth injection is pretty cool because it actually sprays on a curve rather than just being on or off so you can tune it. The same goes with the nitrous controller (whose operation is so similar to the wastegate controller, I figured what the hell).

Another feature I think will be helpful is the rpm based boost. It's based on the fact that at higher RPM, the cylinders have less time to fill. Basically, you are reducing the weight of your hammer and hitting the nail more times as RPM increases. The net result is more horsepower (torque over time) and less actual torque (power extracted per stroke). This is also why engines are more prone to knock at low RPM than high RPM and is what is often called load. The idea is to give a slight bell curve to the boost level through out the RPM range. It could only be a variance of a tenth of a psi but that could be 30 horsepower at the high end. As with all things development, this sounds good in theory and needs to be tested. I think this will be safe and the neat thing is that even at very high RPM, it can sample critical conditions at 10s to 100s of times per revolution and compensate.

The really cool thing I got working on a test bench this weekend was gear compensated boost control. Something I always loved about some of the import systems is they can control boost based on gear. The problem is, there is no easy way I know of for a computer to tell what gear you are in on these cars. I've come up with an algorithm that guess the gear based on speed, rpm, and throttle position. It will be dead on in an M6 car I expect but autos will be a little different so I've got some come up with a way to compensate for converters, etc.

The core code is working in test now I just have to build a damn turbocharger system for it to run! I'll drop some more details as the build progresses. I don't want to give it all up front.

The really trick part I'm trying to work is driving an VFD or LCD with menus and driver input which would make it laptop programmable or you can make high level changes on the fly and have a slick looking display for various information. I've never done more than say "Hello World" on a little 2x16 LCD so there is a little bit of a learning curve there too.

Ultimately, there are stand alone devices that can do a lot of what I want to do here. But I think there is a great advantage to integrating these functions and having them feed each other and respond directly to driver input. Guess we'll have to see how it shakes out over the coming months!

Speed

iTrader: (33)

You got the hookup brotha!

Tiago

iTrader: (27)

gET R dun

LS2Camaro

iTrader: (5)

Damn good stuff man I will be following this.

mcmillion

iTrader: (5)

Good Luck. I can't wait to see what you come up with.

brad8266

iTrader: (23)

02BlackOnBlackSS

iTrader: (11)

This sounds like a cool project. What microcontrollers are you using? I am very familiar with PICs and I have done some cool stuff like this before. I would like to talk to you about this on aim or something because it sounds like something I had wanted to do, but never had the time to. I will pm you my contact info so we can talk about this.

chuntington101

MAN! are you sure you dont work for motec or someone?!?!?!?!?!? what you have descirded is basically what top flight standalone ECUs do! but they cost thousands.

i read a report on an engine tuner over here that set a turbo engine up to give diffrent levels of boost at diffrent throttle positions. it worked amazing! the car would only boost to say 5psi at 50% throtle and say 10 at 75% then 24psi at 100% throttle! made the car VERY drivable on the curcit.

also the diffrent boost at diffrent RPM is what the like of VW/A, GM on the Ecotec, volvo, etc, etc do. they do it os the trabnsmitions hold up better and so the cars dont feel like they have a turbo, but they do the same thing! plus you can pick up the bits cheaply form the cars listed above! infact i was looking at a mates GM 2.0ltr turbo last night and they use an elctronic actuator to controle boost! not sure if these things have a boost limit but if not that would be great! you cna basically map the engine to be just under the point of dept. throught the whole rev range!

just thought, the Skyline had elctronic actuators to!

i also like your idea of haveing one unit controle everything! makes life eaiser if you can link the whole lot together so the water/meth injection kicks in at the same time as the boost does!

VERY VERY good work mate, and i hope it all works out for you! if you could sell a kit at a better price and the BIG names do then you could be on a with a real winner!

thanks Chirs.

PS dont forget to build an anti-lag function in there to!

Speed

iTrader: (33)

No I don't work for motec, I just get bored easy. Giving different boost for throttle position above the wastegate minimum would be easy if someone wanted it. If you guys think that functionality would be cool, I'll be more than happy to build it in. The Touring mode does that to some degree but it's primary focus is to respool as quickly as possible yet maintain the programmed boost.

As far as antilag, the sequential operation should take care of that. This first system will be using twin T61s with T4 internals but a .48 A/R T3 turbine housing. With the system directing all exhaust flow to that little turbine housing, the whistles should go wooo at any rpm, in any gear, any time on command. I've had a lot of good luck with that configuration on several other kits I've built. My ultimate goal is roots supercharger boost response, with all the tunability and efficiency of a turbo system with no belt drag. It's a noble cause so we'll have to see if it works .

Anyway, all the control in the world does nothing without a turbo system to control so let's get started on that critical piece! I have some time over the holiday weekend so I started planning out the particulars. I've never been a big fan of FMICs mounted parallel to the radiator because I don't like opening up the front of the facia. Nothing wrong with it but it's just not my taste. On my old LT1 system, I mounted the IC parallel to the ground with a single 12in fan. It was a 27x12x3 core iirc. That worked very very well for me. So I picked up this Intercooler which is a 24x12x4. It's a beast of an A/A ic! This time I am building a crossmember for the frame horns which will clearance for the large IC. I'm also running two 10in fans on it this time so it should have no problem keeping things cool. Here are a couple pictures of the stuff that is going in place. Sorry the pics suck. Taken with a camera phone since my digital is packed away in somewhere unknown...


Just some of the components. I don't have the second turbo. Note the gray box is the system controller. I found these really cool heatsinked aluminum project boxes on line but they aren't cheap.





I've seen a bunch of IC mounting threads recently so I'll try to capture some detail for the DIYers if anyone is interested in doing something similar.

Speed

iTrader: (33)

Also, I need a little help from you guys on a decision. Obviously the stock clutch is going to give me the finger once this thing starts kicking off. I absolutely LOVED my McLeod in my LT1 car so I'll pick up another one. BUT, and there is always a but...

I found a really nice plasma cutter on sale for about the same price I am going to spend on the clutch. I really really really want the plasma cutter for other projects including a tube frame custom I am planning. So should I:

Buy the clutch knowing I'm going to need to at some point in the near future
Buy the plasma cutter and save a chunk of change on something I can always use and will need in the slightly more distant future
Be responsible and invest the damn money so it grows until I absolutely need it

I need peer pressure here people!

Grr

iTrader: (2)

i would say do the clutch when your car doesnt move anymore. trust me, once you get that plasma cutter youll probably use it on this build as much as you would use that clutch! also i think your stocker will hold the 3-4psi initially while you work out some of the basic gremlins and have time to save up for it.
Gary

30thTA0525

iTrader: (2)

buy the cutter and keep an eye out for the good score for a slightly used twin disk

BTW im curious too see this intercooler idea you have and the front end xmember.. i was gonna mount mine the same way it was mounted on the car i got it from but mine is a TA (it was a Z) and i want it too get good flow withough cutting out the center of the nose.. im gonna loose the foglight obviously but thats alone isnt gonna cut it... that intercooler you got there is sexy no doubt i thought mine was pretty sweet