ATI F1A and No Intercooler on Pump Gas??
04-12-2007, 05:07 PM
#1
ATI F1A and No Intercooler on Pump Gas?? Curious if anyone has ran this type of set-up with success. I am at a crossroads as to which way to go. This is a street car, street driven, weekend warrior type, dragstrip on ocassions......
Wondering if running a methonal injection kit in place of the twin 4.5" intercoolers would work effectively on a 9.3:1 403" LS2 (good heads and exhaust 1 7/8" tubes) generating 12-13 lbs of boost. This would be the variable controlled Stage 2 Snow kit with safe control.
Front mount seems to be the way to go at bigger boost levels, but are the twin 4.5" intercoolers really worth running at all on this application. Appears they were designed for a smaller CID engine running stock type internals and a smaller head unit.
Has anyone tested this (only methanol injection) against the twin 4.5" intercoolers in similar applications. Seen plenty of threads about positive gains from the twin 4.5" to a FMIC but what about eliminating them on a pump gas driven street car at 13lbs or so.
Wondering if running a methonal injection kit in place of the twin 4.5" intercoolers would work effectively on a 9.3:1 403" LS2 (good heads and exhaust 1 7/8" tubes) generating 12-13 lbs of boost. This would be the variable controlled Stage 2 Snow kit with safe control.
Front mount seems to be the way to go at bigger boost levels, but are the twin 4.5" intercoolers really worth running at all on this application. Appears they were designed for a smaller CID engine running stock type internals and a smaller head unit.
Has anyone tested this (only methanol injection) against the twin 4.5" intercoolers in similar applications. Seen plenty of threads about positive gains from the twin 4.5" to a FMIC but what about eliminating them on a pump gas driven street car at 13lbs or so.
04-12-2007, 06:01 PM
#2
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Originally Posted by helicoil
Curious if anyone has ran this type of set-up with success. I am at a crossroads as to which way to go. This is a street car, street driven, weekend warrior type, dragstrip on ocassions......
Wondering if running a methonal injection kit in place of the twin 4.5" intercoolers would work effectively on a 9.3:1 403" LS2 (good heads and exhaust 1 7/8" tubes) generating 12-13 lbs of boost. This would be the variable controlled Stage 2 Snow kit with safe control.
Front mount seems to be the way to go at bigger boost levels, but are the twin 4.5" intercoolers really worth running at all on this application. Appears they were designed for a smaller CID engine running stock type internals and a smaller head unit.
Has anyone tested this (only methanol injection) against the twin 4.5" intercoolers in similar applications. Seen plenty of threads about positive gains from the twin 4.5" to a FMIC but what about eliminating them on a pump gas driven street car at 13lbs or so.
Wondering if running a methonal injection kit in place of the twin 4.5" intercoolers would work effectively on a 9.3:1 403" LS2 (good heads and exhaust 1 7/8" tubes) generating 12-13 lbs of boost. This would be the variable controlled Stage 2 Snow kit with safe control.
Front mount seems to be the way to go at bigger boost levels, but are the twin 4.5" intercoolers really worth running at all on this application. Appears they were designed for a smaller CID engine running stock type internals and a smaller head unit.
Has anyone tested this (only methanol injection) against the twin 4.5" intercoolers in similar applications. Seen plenty of threads about positive gains from the twin 4.5" to a FMIC but what about eliminating them on a pump gas driven street car at 13lbs or so.
04-12-2007, 06:29 PM
#3
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Originally Posted by 383backinblack
a good friend of mine drove a hot-air (no IC) car with an f-2 on a 540ci BBC in a malibu for a couple years on 93 octane......its obviously not ideal, but people do it......keep in mind boost levels matter, the higher the boost the hotter the air, and therefore the more difference it'll make.
The little testing I've been privy to on methanol shows only a 40-50 degree IAT drop with a couple of largish nozzles @ 160 psi. Nozzel placement does matter and the farther away from the throtte body you can place the nozzels the more positive effect you should see.
For a variety of reasons I don't see methanol injection as a replacement for a charge cooler on ag asoline engine, but mine is just a single opinion.
04-12-2007, 07:18 PM
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Originally Posted by andereck
My guess is that the 540 car was carbureted and in that case it can be done with success. Fuel vaporization through a carburetor can knock 100 degrees or more of air temp out.
The little testing I've been privy to on methanol shows only a 40-50 degree IAT drop with a couple of largish nozzles @ 160 psi. Nozzel placement does matter and the farther away from the throtte body you can place the nozzels the more positive effect you should see.
For a variety of reasons I don't see methanol injection as a replacement for a charge cooler on ag asoline engine, but mine is just a single opinion.
The little testing I've been privy to on methanol shows only a 40-50 degree IAT drop with a couple of largish nozzles @ 160 psi. Nozzel placement does matter and the farther away from the throtte body you can place the nozzels the more positive effect you should see.
For a variety of reasons I don't see methanol injection as a replacement for a charge cooler on ag asoline engine, but mine is just a single opinion.
i've seen ice form on boosters and venturis before from the temp drop in carbs......awesome stuff.I wish there was a better place to mount my nozzles.....they're in the hat right over my carb.
04-13-2007, 05:20 AM
#5
Originally Posted by andereck
My guess is that the 540 car was carbureted and in that case it can be done with success. Fuel vaporization through a carburetor can knock 100 degrees or more of air temp out.
The little testing I've been privy to on methanol shows only a 40-50 degree IAT drop with a couple of largish nozzles @ 160 psi. Nozzel placement does matter and the farther away from the throtte body you can place the nozzels the more positive effect you should see.
For a variety of reasons I don't see methanol injection as a replacement for a charge cooler on ag asoline engine, but mine is just a single opinion.
The little testing I've been privy to on methanol shows only a 40-50 degree IAT drop with a couple of largish nozzles @ 160 psi. Nozzel placement does matter and the farther away from the throtte body you can place the nozzels the more positive effect you should see.
For a variety of reasons I don't see methanol injection as a replacement for a charge cooler on ag asoline engine, but mine is just a single opinion.
04-13-2007, 11:06 AM
#6
F1A/403/Twin 4.5" intercoolers Just looking for some facts, on the fence as to whether or not I need to use a FMIC, I know you can't go wrong with one from the performance standpoint, but initial costs and car mods are not real appealing for a 'true' driver/streetcar.
Questioning my selection, looking for feedback.
Will the twin 4.5" intercoolers effectively handle the cfm of air the 403" engine and F1A head unit will move without causing restriction, thus increasing inlet temperatures beyond what the kit was engineered for. Some I have talked to seem to believe and have verified through measuring psi and temperature at the head unit discharge, in front of the intercoolers and after the intercooler, and in the plenum that there are significant restrictions with these applications (strokers/bigger head units).
I have also been told that the ATI F-body package was designed around a stock LS1 application (efficient up to 500 RWHP), in which it worked as designed, but in a stroker application with a bigger head unit that there will be some issues ultimately leading to detonation or a tuning situation where timing has to be pulled so far out to avoid detonation that the performance of the bigger head unit and the added cubic from a stroker are not being utilized.
Essentially, the same results could be achieved on a 346" engine with a smaller head unit (D1SC) where there is not the situation of undersized intercooler surface area for cfm of air pumped through the engine based on cubic inch and supercharger size. More or less the 'kit' is best suited to these stock applications. Is this basically a true statement?
Have many used the twin set-up on the bigger strokers and/or the bigger head unit and had success with no tuning issues (crazy IAT's or significant pumping losses) and/or performance issues?
Just looking for some help. Thanks!
Questioning my selection, looking for feedback.
Will the twin 4.5" intercoolers effectively handle the cfm of air the 403" engine and F1A head unit will move without causing restriction, thus increasing inlet temperatures beyond what the kit was engineered for. Some I have talked to seem to believe and have verified through measuring psi and temperature at the head unit discharge, in front of the intercoolers and after the intercooler, and in the plenum that there are significant restrictions with these applications (strokers/bigger head units).
I have also been told that the ATI F-body package was designed around a stock LS1 application (efficient up to 500 RWHP), in which it worked as designed, but in a stroker application with a bigger head unit that there will be some issues ultimately leading to detonation or a tuning situation where timing has to be pulled so far out to avoid detonation that the performance of the bigger head unit and the added cubic from a stroker are not being utilized.
Essentially, the same results could be achieved on a 346" engine with a smaller head unit (D1SC) where there is not the situation of undersized intercooler surface area for cfm of air pumped through the engine based on cubic inch and supercharger size. More or less the 'kit' is best suited to these stock applications. Is this basically a true statement?
Have many used the twin set-up on the bigger strokers and/or the bigger head unit and had success with no tuning issues (crazy IAT's or significant pumping losses) and/or performance issues?
Just looking for some help. Thanks!
Last edited by helicoil; 04-13-2007 at 01:54 PM.
04-13-2007, 11:26 AM
#7
4.5" intercoolers
Originally Posted by Exotic Performance Plus
I agree, plus it would take a lot of methanol to replace the effectiveness of the intercooler(s). Bob
Some have mentioned success with this on the LS1's (10.8:1 and moderate boost) and some other applications outside of LS1, early SBC, BBC and SBF at relatively mild boost applications - 10lbs or so with lower static compression ratios 9:1.
Just wanting some feedback from some who have maybe done this with success or done this without success
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04-13-2007, 01:13 PM
#8
Originally Posted by helicoil
Just looking for some facts, on the fence as to whether or not I need to use a FMIC, I know you can't go wrong with one from the performance standpoint, but initial costs and car mods are not real appealing for a 'true' driver/streetcar.
Questioning my selection, looking for feedback.
Will the twin 4.5" intercoolers effectively handle the cfm of air the 403" engine and F1A head unit will move without causing restriction, thus increasing inlet temperatures beyond what the kit was engineered for. Some I have talked to seem to believe and have verified through measuring psi and temperature at the head unit discharge, in front of the intercoolers and after the intercooler, and in the plenum that there are significant restrictions with these applications (strokers/bigger head units).
I have also have been told that the ATI F-body package was designed around a stock LS1 application (efficient up to 500 RWHP), in which it worked as designed, but in a stroker application with a bigger head unit that there will be some issues ultimately leading to detonation or a tuning situation where timing has to be pulled so far out to avoid detonation that the performance of the bigger head unit and the added cubic from a stroker are not being utilized.
Essentially, the same results could be achieved on a 346" engine with a smaller head unit (D1SC) where there is not the situation of undersized intercooler surface area for cfm of air pumped through the engine based on cubic inch and supercharger size. More or less the 'kit' is best suited to these stock applications. Is this basically a true statement?
Have many used the twin set-up on the bigger strokers and/or the bigger head unit and had success with no tuning issues (crazy IAT's or significant pumping losses) and/or performance issues?
Just looking for some help. Thanks!
Questioning my selection, looking for feedback.
Will the twin 4.5" intercoolers effectively handle the cfm of air the 403" engine and F1A head unit will move without causing restriction, thus increasing inlet temperatures beyond what the kit was engineered for. Some I have talked to seem to believe and have verified through measuring psi and temperature at the head unit discharge, in front of the intercoolers and after the intercooler, and in the plenum that there are significant restrictions with these applications (strokers/bigger head units).
I have also have been told that the ATI F-body package was designed around a stock LS1 application (efficient up to 500 RWHP), in which it worked as designed, but in a stroker application with a bigger head unit that there will be some issues ultimately leading to detonation or a tuning situation where timing has to be pulled so far out to avoid detonation that the performance of the bigger head unit and the added cubic from a stroker are not being utilized.
Essentially, the same results could be achieved on a 346" engine with a smaller head unit (D1SC) where there is not the situation of undersized intercooler surface area for cfm of air pumped through the engine based on cubic inch and supercharger size. More or less the 'kit' is best suited to these stock applications. Is this basically a true statement?
Have many used the twin set-up on the bigger strokers and/or the bigger head unit and had success with no tuning issues (crazy IAT's or significant pumping losses) and/or performance issues?
Just looking for some help. Thanks!
http://www.exoticperformanceplus.com...Car.php?car=40 Bob
04-13-2007, 01:53 PM
#9
F1A/403/twin 4.5" intercoolers Hey Bob! Nice numbers. You seem to be the Procharger guru.
I don't know if that is going to be an apples to apples comparison since it was a 346 LS1. Wouldn't the size of the air pump (engine) have a bearing on the amount of air that would pull through the system/coolers.
I know there is positive pressure in the outlet side of the supercharger, but would the differential be greater on a bigger engine thus wanting to increasing cfm. And if the intercooler can't move the cfm, what would the result be?
Have you done any of the F-body cars with a 403 and twin 4.5" and the F1A head unit that you have data on?
I don't know if that is going to be an apples to apples comparison since it was a 346 LS1. Wouldn't the size of the air pump (engine) have a bearing on the amount of air that would pull through the system/coolers.
I know there is positive pressure in the outlet side of the supercharger, but would the differential be greater on a bigger engine thus wanting to increasing cfm. And if the intercooler can't move the cfm, what would the result be?
Have you done any of the F-body cars with a 403 and twin 4.5" and the F1A head unit that you have data on?
Last edited by helicoil; 04-13-2007 at 02:02 PM.
04-13-2007, 04:26 PM
#10
Originally Posted by helicoil
Hey Bob! Nice numbers. You seem to be the Procharger guru.
I don't know if that is going to be an apples to apples comparison since it was a 346 LS1. Wouldn't the size of the air pump (engine) have a bearing on the amount of air that would pull through the system/coolers.
I know there is positive pressure in the outlet side of the supercharger, but would the differential be greater on a bigger engine thus wanting to increasing cfm. And if the intercooler can't move the cfm, what would the result be?
Have you done any of the F-body cars with a 403 and twin 4.5" and the F1A head unit that you have data on?
I don't know if that is going to be an apples to apples comparison since it was a 346 LS1. Wouldn't the size of the air pump (engine) have a bearing on the amount of air that would pull through the system/coolers.
I know there is positive pressure in the outlet side of the supercharger, but would the differential be greater on a bigger engine thus wanting to increasing cfm. And if the intercooler can't move the cfm, what would the result be?
Have you done any of the F-body cars with a 403 and twin 4.5" and the F1A head unit that you have data on?
