Go Back   LS1TECH > LS1-LS2-LS3-LS6-LS7 PERFORMANCE > Fueling & Injection
Sign in using an external account
Register Forgot Password?
Search

Fueling & Injection
Fuel Pumps | Injectors | Rails | Regulators | Tanks

60lb injector idle quality

Reply
 
Thread Tools Search this Thread
Old 04-01-2012, 06:38 AM   #1
TECH Resident
 
69-chvl's Avatar
 
Trader Rating: 9
Join Date: Nov 2009
Location: THORNTON, PA (NEAR PHILLY)
Posts: 833
Default 60lb injector idle quality

I have a totally stock LQ4 and a s475. With a Holley HP system, best idle I can get with the Siemens injector is 650 rpm, about 19" of vac. The injec PW is 1.5 ms. I stuck the stock inj back in, and I can get the idle down to 500-550, which is probably stock. Their PW was around 2.5 ms.

Sort of a newby here with LS motors, and I havent done a bunch of tuning yet, but I changed the idle AFR to 14.0 from 14.7 and it idled slightly better. Taking the idle timing to 30* from a base of 22* also helped.

I saw some tech specs on the Siemens injectors, and I think I read that the min PW is about 1.5, which is were mine were operating at.

Is this about it as far as idle quality?
__________________
96 Stang stock LQ9/s475-t4-83 wheel/LS6 cam/Holley HP/TH400/PTC/3.27 11.0/132mph 11psi 1st outting

http://ls1tech.com/forums/forced-ind...-134-86-a.html
69-chvl is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 04-01-2012, 09:46 AM   #2
Teching In
 
Trader Rating: 3
Join Date: Apr 2010
Posts: 15
Default

I'm also running these injectors and have the same issues. I'm waiting to see if anyone has any tricks to remedy the semi-poor idle quality. I'm running Banish's data.
ajseburg is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 04-01-2012, 12:53 PM   #3
12 Second Club
 
stangtrader's Avatar
 
Trader Rating: 2
Join Date: Apr 2009
Location: PNW
Posts: 895
Default

My idle is nice and clean. I think maybe your trying to set the idle too low? My lq4 in my fbody I have idling around 800 rpms. 14.7 at idle and iirc 1.8ms pulse.
stangtrader is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 04-01-2012, 01:00 PM   #4
TECH Fanatic
 
Trader Rating: 12
Join Date: Jun 2007
Location: earth
Posts: 1,433
Default

i cant get my idle afr any higher then 11 at idle with mine on a 5.3. think i need an adjustable regulator. even if i command 18:1 it wont change... lol think the pulsewidths are around 1.5. wont go lower no matter what i try for the injector min pulse width and whatever. gonna try to mess with the offsets some more. dont know why offsets for these injectors so such a highly guarded secret unless you buy a 250 dollar banish dvd.
__________________

2000 ws6 - was stock 5.3 pt7675 making 700+rwhp. currently building turbo kit again.... haha
2001 camaro 408, afr 225s, pt88, 4l80e. 880rwhp on 19-20psi 91 pump gas.
got-a-ls1 is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 04-01-2012, 02:10 PM   #5
TECH Resident
 
69-chvl's Avatar
 
Trader Rating: 9
Join Date: Nov 2009
Location: THORNTON, PA (NEAR PHILLY)
Posts: 833
Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by stangtrader View Post
My idle is nice and clean. I think maybe your trying to set the idle too low? My lq4 in my fbody I have idling around 800 rpms. 14.7 at idle and iirc 1.8ms pulse.

Possible.

I assumed the idle speed should be around 550, as my 01 Tahoe idles there with the same cam I believe. And again, I could get it to idle at 550 with the 28lb'ers.

I tried fattening it up, leaning it out, more/less timing. Best idle I could get was 650 with an AFR of about 13.7, and 30* of timing. Gives me a kpa of 31 = around 19-20" of vacuum.
__________________
96 Stang stock LQ9/s475-t4-83 wheel/LS6 cam/Holley HP/TH400/PTC/3.27 11.0/132mph 11psi 1st outting

http://ls1tech.com/forums/forced-ind...-134-86-a.html
69-chvl is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 04-01-2012, 05:24 PM   #6
9 Second Club
 
Trader Rating: 0
Join Date: Nov 2003
Location: Norn Iron
Posts: 6,942
Default

You guys need to take it a tuner who knows what they are doing. There should be no difficulty whatsoever with those 60lb injectors.
__________________
9.85 @ 144.75mph, got blown
202mph standing mile
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=XgWRCDtiTQ0

Never trust or buy from AES Racing.
stevieturbo is online now   Reply With Quote
Old 04-01-2012, 05:40 PM   #7
TECH Resident
 
69-chvl's Avatar
 
Trader Rating: 9
Join Date: Nov 2009
Location: THORNTON, PA (NEAR PHILLY)
Posts: 833
Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by stevieturbo View Post
You guys need to take it a tuner who knows what they are doing. There should be no difficulty whatsoever with those 60lb injectors.
I can get it to idle pretty good, just not as good at the OE's.

Do you feel the 60's should be able to idle just as well as the OE 28 lbs'ers?
__________________
96 Stang stock LQ9/s475-t4-83 wheel/LS6 cam/Holley HP/TH400/PTC/3.27 11.0/132mph 11psi 1st outting

http://ls1tech.com/forums/forced-ind...-134-86-a.html
69-chvl is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 04-01-2012, 05:59 PM   #8
9 Second Club
 
Trader Rating: 0
Join Date: Nov 2003
Location: Norn Iron
Posts: 6,942
Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by 69-chvl View Post
I can get it to idle pretty good, just not as good at the OE's.

Do you feel the 60's should be able to idle just as well as the OE 28 lbs'ers?
Yes, and thousands do.
__________________
9.85 @ 144.75mph, got blown
202mph standing mile
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=XgWRCDtiTQ0

Never trust or buy from AES Racing.
stevieturbo is online now   Reply With Quote
Old 04-01-2012, 08:42 PM   #9
LS1Tech Sponsor
 
Trader Rating: 12
Join Date: Nov 2001
Location: Bridgewater,Ma
Posts: 14,843
Default

Tuning Motron 60's is easy. We only go as low as 850rpm but never a problem to get 14-1 or even 16-1 A/F if wanted. That is with stock 60psi fuel pressure at the rail.
__________________


www.slowhawkperformance.com
Slowhawk is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 04-01-2012, 10:25 PM   #10
Teching In
 
Trader Rating: 3
Join Date: Apr 2010
Posts: 15
Default

After some research, I found that there is a table that sets a minimum transient pulsewidth (B9021- hidden until I added the .cax file) that will override the minimum pulsewidth defined in B4003. I am using EFI Live on a 0202003 OS. If you're using HP Tuners, I'm not sure what the equivalent table would be. My default value in this table was 1.27xxxx, and the new value has to be lower than that set in B4003 to force the computer to use B4003 instead of B9021. I set mine at .75. I plan on loading the new calibration tomorrow and taking the car for a drive. I'll report back with the results. I'm hoping this helps with lean tip-in and rich decel.
ajseburg is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 04-02-2012, 01:19 PM   #11
11 Second Club
 
white01ss's Avatar
 
Trader Rating: 28
Join Date: Nov 2003
Location: Dallas, TX
Posts: 452
Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by ajseburg View Post
After some research, I found that there is a table that sets a minimum transient pulsewidth (B9021- hidden until I added the .cax file) that will override the minimum pulsewidth defined in B4003. I am using EFI Live on a 0202003 OS.
Had this same problem where the pulse width wouldn't go lower and the minimum transient pulse width solved that problem. Don't set it too low or some of the injectors won't open at all and the idle will be lean, but rough and a little erratic. I think minimum pulse width for this injector is around 1.2 ms.

You may also need to visit the B4005 Small Pulse Adjust and B3701 Injector Pulse Width Voltage Adjustment as they will have an big impact at idle as well. I had mine set at 0.4103 ms @ 14V which is around stock.
__________________
2001 Camaro SS, Arctic White, Forged 370 LQ9, Ported 243s, D-1SC, AlkyControl, MGW, FAST 92, 1 7/8" Kooks, Mufflex 4in, Polished OEM Z06s, GW SFC, MWC FAB9 3 Ch, D&D Viper M6, RAM Dual Disk, GC Adj Susp 450/150, Strano 35/22 Hollow Bars
D-1SC 14 psi 4.5" twins - 690 rwhp
/648 rwtq
white01ss is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 04-02-2012, 03:22 PM   #12
Moderator
 
Trader Rating: 2
Join Date: Aug 2008
Posts: 4,488
Default

i run 80lb injectors @ 58psi fuel pressure on a stock cam/heads/intake turbo 4.8l

siemens decka USCAR 80lb injectors from lethal performance,

with a MS1 Ecu and i can make it start and idle beautifully.
the injectors are linear and have no problem flowing super low pulse widths, i am using about 1.2 % duty cycle at idle.
denmah is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 04-02-2012, 04:32 PM   #13
TECH Resident
 
69-chvl's Avatar
 
Trader Rating: 9
Join Date: Nov 2009
Location: THORNTON, PA (NEAR PHILLY)
Posts: 833
Default

This is the default specs in the Holley software. Does this look pretty good to you guys?

Again, motor idles good at 650, I just cant idle it at 550 like the stock injectors did.



Siemens Deka IV High Impedance "60 lb/hr"
Offtime curve at 60 psi

8.0 V 1.64
8.8 V 1.38
9.6 V 1.18
10.4 V 1.03
11.2 V .91
12.0 V .81
12.8 V .74
13.6 V .68
14.4 V .62
15.2 V .55
16.0 V .49
16.8 V .45
17.6 V .42
18.4 V .37
19.2 V .33
20.0 V .29
__________________
96 Stang stock LQ9/s475-t4-83 wheel/LS6 cam/Holley HP/TH400/PTC/3.27 11.0/132mph 11psi 1st outting

http://ls1tech.com/forums/forced-ind...-134-86-a.html
69-chvl is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 04-02-2012, 05:13 PM   #14
9 Second Club
 
Trader Rating: 0
Join Date: Nov 2003
Location: Norn Iron
Posts: 6,942
Default

Never used Holley before, so cant comment there.

On my own ecu I calculated injector dead time at around 0.65ms at 14v so the numbers above seem ok in that respect. Cannot comment at other voltages as I dont have that info.

As to how the Holley is wired or configured I have no idea though and could affect how the system performs.
I'll at least assume the injectors are wired and fired sequentially ? And they are firing in the correct order and not at some ridiculous time ?
__________________
9.85 @ 144.75mph, got blown
202mph standing mile
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=XgWRCDtiTQ0

Never trust or buy from AES Racing.
stevieturbo is online now   Reply With Quote
Old 04-02-2012, 07:19 PM   #15
TECH Resident
 
69-chvl's Avatar
 
Trader Rating: 9
Join Date: Nov 2009
Location: THORNTON, PA (NEAR PHILLY)
Posts: 833
Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by stevieturbo View Post
Never used Holley before, so cant comment there.

On my own ecu I calculated injector dead time at around 0.65ms at 14v so the numbers above seem ok in that respect. Cannot comment at other voltages as I dont have that info.

As to how the Holley is wired or configured I have no idea though and could affect how the system performs.
I'll at least assume the injectors are wired and fired sequentially ? And they are firing in the correct order and not at some ridiculous time ?
Yes sequential, yes firing order is correct. "Some ridiculos time" - meaning regular engine timing?
__________________
96 Stang stock LQ9/s475-t4-83 wheel/LS6 cam/Holley HP/TH400/PTC/3.27 11.0/132mph 11psi 1st outting

http://ls1tech.com/forums/forced-ind...-134-86-a.html
69-chvl is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 04-02-2012, 10:47 PM   #16
TECH Fanatic
 
Trader Rating: 12
Join Date: Jun 2007
Location: earth
Posts: 1,433
Default

ha i knew there had to be a hidden table keeping my pulse widths high.. the transient fuel fixed all my idle problems. idles fine at 14.7 now. i missed it because of the label...
__________________

2000 ws6 - was stock 5.3 pt7675 making 700+rwhp. currently building turbo kit again.... haha
2001 camaro 408, afr 225s, pt88, 4l80e. 880rwhp on 19-20psi 91 pump gas.
got-a-ls1 is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 04-03-2012, 01:18 AM   #17
9 Second Club
 
Trader Rating: 0
Join Date: Nov 2003
Location: Norn Iron
Posts: 6,942
Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by 69-chvl View Post
Yes sequential, yes firing order is correct. "Some ridiculos time" - meaning regular engine timing?
No, I mean injection timing.
__________________
9.85 @ 144.75mph, got blown
202mph standing mile
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=XgWRCDtiTQ0

Never trust or buy from AES Racing.
stevieturbo is online now   Reply With Quote
Old 04-03-2012, 07:49 PM   #18
Teching In
 
Trader Rating: 3
Join Date: Apr 2010
Posts: 15
Default

Sorry for taking so long for the update. I've driven around for the last 2 days with the B9021 table set at .75 and my minimum pulsewidth is dropping to 1.2 at times. I'm using Siemens Deka 60# with Banish's data. Street driving has improved 100%. I no longer have rich decel or lean tip in. It appears that my car is abiding by the b3647 table much better, but I have some more fine tuning to do. I can finally creep through a parking lot in 2nd gear off the gas without bucking. Also, my car has the hot cam, known for its awful... everything. This is the most driveable my car has been since I bought it. I also adjusted my impact factor table by +30%. I did pull some timing in the "in gear" cells that pertain to idle/off throttle creeping at 800-1200 rpm range (its a m6 car). As I continue to play around with the tune, I'll continue to report my findings.
ajseburg is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 04-03-2012, 09:02 PM   #19
TECH Resident
 
69-chvl's Avatar
 
Trader Rating: 9
Join Date: Nov 2009
Location: THORNTON, PA (NEAR PHILLY)
Posts: 833
Default

I guess I'm sorta on my own with the Holley ECU huh? Although, I have the ability to adjust all that stuff. Can you guys post whatever details/specs regarding these injectors? There really isnt any tuners around here that I would feel comfortable with.
__________________
96 Stang stock LQ9/s475-t4-83 wheel/LS6 cam/Holley HP/TH400/PTC/3.27 11.0/132mph 11psi 1st outting

http://ls1tech.com/forums/forced-ind...-134-86-a.html
69-chvl is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 04-04-2012, 01:42 AM   #20
9 Second Club
 
Trader Rating: 0
Join Date: Nov 2003
Location: Norn Iron
Posts: 6,942
Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by 69-chvl View Post
I guess I'm sorta on my own with the Holley ECU huh? Although, I have the ability to adjust all that stuff. Can you guys post whatever details/specs regarding these injectors? There really isnt any tuners around here that I would feel comfortable with.
Just because the OEM table has multiple tables and menu's doesnt mean yours will.

Certainly any aftermarket ecu Ive ever tuned this should be very easy. Although Ive never used Holley or seen their software.
__________________
9.85 @ 144.75mph, got blown
202mph standing mile
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=XgWRCDtiTQ0

Never trust or buy from AES Racing.
stevieturbo is online now   Reply With Quote
Old 04-04-2012, 01:42 AM
LS1Tech
Pontiac Firebird




Paid Advertisement
Reply

Similar Threads
Thread Thread Starter Forum Replies Last Post
how to determine how much injector im using? 80_bu Fueling & Injection 3 05-03-2014 10:40 AM
Siemens Deka 60lb 69ChBuLQ4 Fueling & Injection 1 10-15-2012 09:53 PM
TSP 224 CAM VE values at idle strange DAVECS1 PCM Diagnostics & Tuning 10 08-25-2012 01:06 AM
anyone have 80lb siemens dekas? IKnowtheFuture Fueling & Injection 4 02-18-2012 10:47 PM
Injector Offset Adjustment jimmyblue PCM Diagnostics & Tuning 32 07-03-2007 09:02 PM


Tags
60lb, affect, file, idle, injector, jobs, minimum, powered, pulse, secret, service, siemens, tuning, vbulletin, width


Thread Tools Search this Thread
Search this Thread:

Advanced Search

Posting Rules
You may not post new threads
You may not post replies
You may not post attachments
You may not edit your posts

BB code is On
Smilies are On
[IMG] code is On
HTML code is Off
Trackbacks are Off
Pingbacks are On
Refbacks are Off



Join Ls1Tech

All times are GMT -5. The time now is 05:35 PM.


Powered by vBulletin® Version 3.8.7 AC1
Copyright ©2000 - 2015, Jelsoft Enterprises Ltd.
Advertising - Terms of Service - Privacy Statement - Terms of Service - JOBS
Emails & Contact Details