is ethanol ok?
08-10-2005, 03:43 PM
#1
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is ethanol ok? Hello!! I have a ws6-02 with bolt ons that i´m thinking of giving some ethanol (e85).... I´m just wondering, is this safe, will it hurt anything or affect hp?
I´m from sweden and gas prices here are horrible, but e85 is like half price....
thanx!! 
I´m from sweden and gas prices here are horrible, but e85 is like half price....
thanx!!
08-10-2005, 03:59 PM
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I think e85 is too much for the stock system, you might damage the fuel lines and pump if you use the e85. gm recommends no more the 10% ethanol with the stock fuel system... only a few models will take the e85 "85%"
08-10-2005, 04:07 PM
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To run it straight you would have to "as was said" change fuel lines, fuel pump, tank ect, or eventually it would do damage. And tune for it at a dyno. Its a good idea if you address all the problems first and tune as it will run lean. I might eventually do this with an entirely diff fuel system. Alcohol will corrode things.
08-10-2005, 05:11 PM
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I would love to mod my car to be able to do that. Ethanol sounds like a promising alternative fuel source in the future and the E85 cars out now have tested slightly faster than normal models I believe.
08-10-2005, 05:22 PM
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I wouldn't say that. Ethanol has almost the same energy per unit volume as gas.
Ethanol is corrosive to certain types of plastics and aluminum, so yes you will need to revamp some of the fuel system components. The pump in our truck needed to be changed along with the fuel rails and we also changed the fuel injectors.
Ethanol also has a higher octane rating, some power to be had from that.
^^^^Participant in the 99-00 GM Ethanol Vehicle Challenge
Ethanol is corrosive to certain types of plastics and aluminum, so yes you will need to revamp some of the fuel system components. The pump in our truck needed to be changed along with the fuel rails and we also changed the fuel injectors.
Ethanol also has a higher octane rating, some power to be had from that.
^^^^Participant in the 99-00 GM Ethanol Vehicle Challenge
08-10-2005, 06:12 PM
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You should need bigger injectors and a different program in your PCM to be able to effectively run off it. Stoich for ethanol is about 9.6:1 where stoich for gasoline is about 14.64:1 (trying to remember off the top of my head; my deepest apologies if not entirely correct). If the engine tried to command an AFR of 14.64:1 for ethanol, it would run very very lean.
That in addition to the corrosiveness of ethanol and other factors already mentioned.
That in addition to the corrosiveness of ethanol and other factors already mentioned.
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08-11-2005, 08:01 PM
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Originally Posted by Doski
i was thinking like 50/50!!!
Maybe somebody can clear that up.
08-13-2005, 04:23 PM
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You will lose fuel MPG not fuel economy.
Compare the price per mile of E85 to 93octane and up... I save alot of money..
As for the conversion read this.
http://www.westbioenergy.org/reports...5019_final.htm
Look at fig 13 and fig 15.. They were able to run 6 degrees more advance at PEAK loads. They also were able to run a maximum advance of 9 more degrees...
I finally got around to swaping the filler neck..
I needed bigger injectors, pump, standalone EMS and more parts allready... many of the systems I changed would have been changed for any fuel.. In fact the 160lb bosch alcohol injectors cost much less than large traditional DSM injectors.
In short a low dollar near stock conversion on any car to just save money at near stock power is'nt worth it but.....
It's not easy to do but if you already are maxing out what you have now and are in there anyway then it is easy.. Different 0-rings, filler neck from a FFV in a yard etc.. Ethanol if it had'nt been mixed with gas it could be consumed it can also be found in some ppls shot glasses.. It is'nt that hard on components... There are only a handfull of o-rings in a fuel system esp when it has been replaced with AN lines and fittings. Coat the fuel rails... AL anodize them.. etc.. Nothing that needs to be done is that hard.
At a certain level even on gas the PCM needs to be swapped out with something you can work with EMS . Also get a WB02.. Then consider E85 and PM me and I'll help you set it up to run closed loop and haul ***..
Done right on a high CR or forced induction engine it is wicked.
Compare the price per mile of E85 to 93octane and up... I save alot of money..
As for the conversion read this.
http://www.westbioenergy.org/reports...5019_final.htm
Look at fig 13 and fig 15.. They were able to run 6 degrees more advance at PEAK loads. They also were able to run a maximum advance of 9 more degrees...
I finally got around to swaping the filler neck..
I needed bigger injectors, pump, standalone EMS and more parts allready... many of the systems I changed would have been changed for any fuel.. In fact the 160lb bosch alcohol injectors cost much less than large traditional DSM injectors.
In short a low dollar near stock conversion on any car to just save money at near stock power is'nt worth it but.....
It's not easy to do but if you already are maxing out what you have now and are in there anyway then it is easy.. Different 0-rings, filler neck from a FFV in a yard etc.. Ethanol if it had'nt been mixed with gas it could be consumed it can also be found in some ppls shot glasses.. It is'nt that hard on components... There are only a handfull of o-rings in a fuel system esp when it has been replaced with AN lines and fittings. Coat the fuel rails... AL anodize them.. etc.. Nothing that needs to be done is that hard.
At a certain level even on gas the PCM needs to be swapped out with something you can work with EMS . Also get a WB02.. Then consider E85 and PM me and I'll help you set it up to run closed loop and haul ***..
Done right on a high CR or forced induction engine it is wicked.
Last edited by V8_DSM_V8again; 08-13-2005 at 06:14 PM.
08-13-2005, 09:59 PM
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http://www.e85fuel.com/index.php
E85 is 105 octane fuel and it will destroy your fuel system if used for extended periods UNLESS it's designed as a Flex Fuel Vehicle.
FFV Vehicle List: http://www.e85fuel.com/e85101/flexfuelvehicles.php
http://www.e85fuel.com/e85101/faqs/e85.php?src=faq
http://www.e85fuel.com/e85101/faqs/conversion.php
http://www.e85fuel.com/e85101/faqs/anycar.php
E85 is 105 octane fuel and it will destroy your fuel system if used for extended periods UNLESS it's designed as a Flex Fuel Vehicle.
FFV Vehicle List: http://www.e85fuel.com/e85101/flexfuelvehicles.php
http://www.e85fuel.com/e85101/faqs/e85.php?src=faq
http://www.e85fuel.com/e85101/faqs/conversion.php
http://www.e85fuel.com/e85101/faqs/anycar.php
Can ethanol fuel be used in any vehicle?
Response:
Gasoline-ethanol blends containing up to 10% volume ethanol may be used in any vehicle. The addition of ethanol boosts octane and, because it is an oxygenate, ethanol contributes to a more complete fuel combustion resulting in reduced emissions of carbon monoxide and other ozone-forming emissions. All major auto manufacturers approve the use of up to 10% volume ethanol.
In fact, some manufacturers, such as General Motors, Chrysler, Ford, Nissan, Range Rover, and Suzuki recommend the use of oxygenated fuels and/or reformulated gasoline for their clean burning characteristics. Blends above 10% volume are not approved by the auto manufacturers or the EPA for use in standard gasoline engine vehicles.
The Energy Policy Act of 1992 also recognizes E85 (a blend of 85% ethanol and 15% unleaded gasoline) as an alternative fuel. In order to operate on E85, vehicles need to be compatible with alcohol use. The conversion cost to make FFVs compatible with E85 typically includes upgrades to the fuel system components, the addition of a fuel sensor, and reprogramming the EPOM (computer chip) in the ECM/PCM (electronic control module/power train control module).
Response:
Gasoline-ethanol blends containing up to 10% volume ethanol may be used in any vehicle. The addition of ethanol boosts octane and, because it is an oxygenate, ethanol contributes to a more complete fuel combustion resulting in reduced emissions of carbon monoxide and other ozone-forming emissions. All major auto manufacturers approve the use of up to 10% volume ethanol.
In fact, some manufacturers, such as General Motors, Chrysler, Ford, Nissan, Range Rover, and Suzuki recommend the use of oxygenated fuels and/or reformulated gasoline for their clean burning characteristics. Blends above 10% volume are not approved by the auto manufacturers or the EPA for use in standard gasoline engine vehicles.
The Energy Policy Act of 1992 also recognizes E85 (a blend of 85% ethanol and 15% unleaded gasoline) as an alternative fuel. In order to operate on E85, vehicles need to be compatible with alcohol use. The conversion cost to make FFVs compatible with E85 typically includes upgrades to the fuel system components, the addition of a fuel sensor, and reprogramming the EPOM (computer chip) in the ECM/PCM (electronic control module/power train control module).
What happens if I accidentally fuel my gasoline-only powered vehicle with E85?
Response:
Although your vehicle was not manufactured to run on E85, no problems should occur if you mistakenly fuel once with the alternative fuel. The largest difference between an E85 powered vehicle and a gasoline powered vehicle is that their computer modules are meant to read different amounts of oxygen within the fuel. E85 contains a higher amount of oxygen than gasoline and E85 compatible vehicles are made to read that higher amount. When a higher amount of oxygen is read by a gasoline powered vehicle, your "check engine light" may appear. However, the vehicle will run just as it will with gasoline.
Response:
Although your vehicle was not manufactured to run on E85, no problems should occur if you mistakenly fuel once with the alternative fuel. The largest difference between an E85 powered vehicle and a gasoline powered vehicle is that their computer modules are meant to read different amounts of oxygen within the fuel. E85 contains a higher amount of oxygen than gasoline and E85 compatible vehicles are made to read that higher amount. When a higher amount of oxygen is read by a gasoline powered vehicle, your "check engine light" may appear. However, the vehicle will run just as it will with gasoline.
08-13-2005, 10:15 PM
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Originally Posted by gillbot
http://www.e85fuel.com/index.php
E85 is 105 octane fuel and it will destroy your fuel system if used for extended periods UNLESS it's designed as a Flex Fuel Vehicle.
E85 is 105 octane fuel and it will destroy your fuel system if used for extended periods UNLESS it's designed as a Flex Fuel Vehicle.
Legally you are not supposed to change a cat converter unless it fails... That has'nt hurt the sale of high flow 3" converters...
Guess what I designed it as a E85 or higher% ethanol only vehicle.
From the fuel lines to the injectors I have the proper o-ring material and BOSCH designed my injectors to be alcohol injectors. Formula 1 uses the same BOSCH injectors for METHANOL.. So I know that the less corossive ethanol will not phase them.. I have been running it for over 2 years... The ETs keep going down and my fuel system never has gone down. IT CAN be done right if you do what the engineers do to the letter.
The article I posted shows how to make all the changes the same kinds of changes that GM makes in order to make a for exampla a 4.8 liter LSx a FFV 4.8 liter Lsx..
O-rings, injectors, pumps, regulators etc...
http://www.westbioenergy.org/report...55019_final.htm
Also look at all the university E85 conversion projects online too...
Changes are in the fuel sytem and PCM.. ppl here make those kind of changes for gas cars for performance. Just a little change to the already scheduled upgrades and you are running it.
08-14-2005, 01:49 PM
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I'm not negating your setup, I was posting it as info because I've seen MANY people try to run E85 with disasterous results. I work with a company that makes the E85 and we do a bit of testing on it, I know what it can do. I usually try to stay out of these conversations though. We have our propoganda, the bio oil has theirs. If you read in between those lines, you'll see the truth for yourself.
Once again, I was just posting it up for others to get info so they don't run out and start pumping their cars full of E85 without knowing the risks upfront.
Once again, I was just posting it up for others to get info so they don't run out and start pumping their cars full of E85 without knowing the risks upfront.
08-19-2005, 05:50 PM
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Originally Posted by V8_DSM_V8again
If it is 85% ethanol and only 15% gasoline on a stock or gasoline tuned engine will = really lean... Really Really lean..... Bye Bye piston or exh valve lean...
08-19-2005, 07:37 PM
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Gilbot that is easy to fix... But you are right as far as someone just dumping it in a completely stock car...
The needed fuel system mods..
1. Anodize the fuel rail Aluminum... Jet hot steel
2. Run braided SS fuel lines.
3. Plastic Tank if not already
4. Alky spec injectors. More and more with FFV production >
5. Alky tolerant o-rings...
6. Alky tolerant Adj FPR...
Alot of the systems changed are those that get changed for HP increases... Everybody already knows how to do the work... Just a change or two and it will run forever on it...
In here is all the info on how to make it work and work right.
http://www.westbioenergy.org/report...55019_final.htm
The needed fuel system mods..
1. Anodize the fuel rail Aluminum... Jet hot steel
2. Run braided SS fuel lines.
3. Plastic Tank if not already
4. Alky spec injectors. More and more with FFV production >
5. Alky tolerant o-rings...
6. Alky tolerant Adj FPR...
Alot of the systems changed are those that get changed for HP increases... Everybody already knows how to do the work... Just a change or two and it will run forever on it...
In here is all the info on how to make it work and work right.
http://www.westbioenergy.org/report...55019_final.htm