natronathon

well, ethanol is starting to be offered in this area, are there any opinions on running gas with ethanol in it? If it is still premium octane rating will octane negatively effect the car or performance? Im weary about using it, but i feel that at some point i may not have an option...

ibanez7

iTrader: (7)

what is the percentage of added ethanol is it?

the fuel by me is stated as ATLEAST 10% ETHANOL. my z28 runs fine with it, and its all the car has ever known.

MSURacing

iTrader: (1)

The Ethanol is not going to effect the octane in a negative way. Actually, the good part about Ethanol is it's octane, pure Ethanol has an octane rating of around 115.
Plus, the Ethanol is going to clean out any condensation you may have had in your fuel system because water is solulable in the alcohol.
If you want any more information on the benifits of ethanol, go to www.e85.com, or just PM me, I will be able to answer most questions. Minnesota State University Racing I recieved my BS in Automotive Engineering there with a heavy influence on ethanol as a fuel!!!

And no, I wasn't under the influence through college!!!!LOL

natronathon

yeah i believe its 10%. Its not in the premium yet, but i figure it will be shortly, so i was just wondering. thanks for the info gentlemen

2K2WS6TA

iTrader: (2)

My wife uses the 10% ethanol (89 octane) in her Jeep, so far we've had no problems at all, best of all it's cheaper than the 87

YoungGunLs1

I use 90 octane when I am filling at school here in Wisconsin...at Cenex in my city the price of the 90 octane with 10% ethanol is the same as 87 octane...and then premium (92 octane) is like 15 cents a gallon more so I always just put the 90 in. Car hasn't had any problems with it. I never run a full tank of it though I just fill enough to get across the Minnesota border and back home where gas prices drop 20 cents a gallon.

MSURacing

iTrader: (1)

Ok guys, I have had some more quesitons on PM and I think these questions are better for everyone to see because I think there are a lot of questions about this fuel.

Originally Posted by MSURacing
Exactly



Quote:
when you say E-10, E-25, and E-85 does that mean 10% 25% and 85% respectively?




Quote:
Originally Posted by MSURacing
Quote:
so ethanol is compltely safe to run? thats awesome, maybe ill save some money in the future. Also, I am wondering will it have any performance gains/losses as far as energy released upon combustion? Will it be more prone to detonation, or as you said due to higher octane rating will it actually help to prevent knock? just a few q's. thanks for the info



Well, there is a lot to consider when running ethanol. The first thing to realize is that it takes more ethanol to produce the same amount of power as gasoline because of the molecular structure of it. Now, the added bonus to ethanol is that it contains oxygen, so it "chemically" supercharges itself by burning itself.
This will pick you up in the midrange some as your burning efficiency will be higher.
The down side is it will be taking more fuel to do this, so fuel economy is going to suffer. Ethanol takes approx 30% more fuel when run at 100%, E-85 takes about 25% more fuel, and E-10 takes about 5% more.

So, if you would like to run E-85, you would need to make your fuel system appear 25% larger, most likely with bigger injectors, you could possibly do it with pressure, but it would have to be quite high, like over 100psi. But, your car really wouldn't know the difference, because the computer doesn't know how big the injectors are. And, being the fuel carries oxygen with it, it appears to the O2 sensors that everything it peachy.

I hope this answers your questions, let me know if you have any more.




Ethanol use ??s
I saw a post regaurding you experiance with ethanol and had a few questions.

1. What are the good and the bad of using higher concentrations of ethanol in a non-E85 engine. For example, 20-40% ethanol. (mixing E85 and reg gas)

also doing this in a Gen 3 and Gen 1 engines.

2. What are the differences between a GM E85 5.3L and a non E85 5.3L? Sensors, ECM, lines etc...

Any info would help.

Thanks.

To answer the last two questions, see above for pros and cons.

2nd question, the 5.3L Flex fuel has a different injector, actually has the same flow rate as the LS2, now that I think about it, I am pretty sure it is the same one.

It also has a sensor in the fuel line called a flex fuel sensor that determines how much how much % of alcohal is in the fuel. I am not 100% sure how the sensor works, but it is driven by a frequency number.

If anyone has more questions, please ask them on here because I think there are many questions about ethanol and it should all be public knowledge. That is what this website is for, to gain knowledge.

RaysZ71

I have heard that ethanol is more corrosive than gas, so using higher amounts hard on seals, injectors, fuel pumps???

RPM WS6

iTrader: (3)

Good question....

What damage can occur to a non-flex engine when E85 is used on a regular basis? What parts would need to be changed/modified in the engine or fuel system to accomidate use of E85 without risking longevity of a gas motor?

Most gas in my area has had 10% ethanol for a very long time now, and that doesn't seem to cause any issues, but going to E85 seems like it might present bigger issues when used long term on a non-flex engine.

2K2WS6TA

iTrader: (2)

IIRC to run E85, it would be a good idea to change fuel lines, and the rubber o rings (basically any rubber part that the fuel contacts should be changed to an ethanol tolerant compound)
Tuning would be helpful as the ethanol has a lower BTU content than gasoline, raising the compression ratio of the engine is suggested, but not required, larger injectors also are suggested if the stock ones are close to max
Nothing really beyond the scope of a good home mechanic, the difficulty lies in when you switch back and forth, as the tune will have to be changed back to gasoline, then back to E85, the flex fuel cars have a sensor in the gas tank that detects the different ethanol content, and instructs the ECM what programed values to use, they also have the ethanol tolerant seals (gas doesn't bother them)

5-7

ethanol is not corrosive at all. The problem is when left out and constantly exposed to air it starts oxidizing to aldehydes and eventually to acetic acid which can slowly corrode cheap rubber and rust non-stainless steel fuel lines. The acetaledhyde is what gums up injectors and can also cause problems with rubber components. When the ethanol is dissolved in gasoline like E85 it will not oxidize like it would on its own. It also will not separate from the gasoline as its dissolved, not mixed in.

UMIRacing

Most vehicles that are 96 and newer have all the right gaskets to deal with the ethanol in the fuel.

RaysZ71

So really the problem with running E85 in a non flex fuel engine is the PCM not adjusting the air/fuel ratio or not having a large enough injectors. Not so much of being hard on parts..

99PontTA

my 99 ta had 10% ethanol in it since new...@ 50k the fuel system was completely gone...even ate holes through the fuel rail...big mess cost 3600 to fix....needed fuel pump,lines,rail,injectors,even ate the ends that were steel on the soft lines that connect the steel body lines to the fuel rail.I'd stay away from it.GM would NOT stand behind it claiming "FUEL CONTAMINATION" BULL SHIRT!

by the way there is a HUGE flaw in returnless fuel systems...they tend to trap water in the fuel rail...you can only guess the outcome of mixing water with ethanol in a carbon steel environment......

by the way thank gm for changing to an ALL carbon steel non plated fuel system 99 up........yes bare steel!Our cars are NOT the only ones sharing in this mess,the newer gm trucks have the same problem.I talked to a local dealer service manager.He admitted its a huge problem in all the new trucks using.....yep you guessed it The returnless fuel system and our cars got it 1st.

RPM WS6

iTrader: (3)

Odd. For as long as I can remember they've had signs up at all the gas stations in my area that say "contains up to 10% ethanol". I've had [non-flex fuel] cars with 120K miles on them that have had nothing but that type of gas, and had zero issues like you've described. Also had many friends with 80-100K miles or more on local LS1/LT1 cars and never had issues like that.

Are you sure it was the 10% ethanol that did it?

99PontTA

yep i'm positive...ask mikey at rapid motor sports how many rotted fuel systems he sees working on these fbodies.Infact the local chev truck dealer STOCKS the fuel lines for trucks its such a common problem.

99PontTA

I saved ALL the parts if anyone doubts me.

RPM WS6

iTrader: (3)

So what explains all the high mile LS1 cars I know of in my area that have gotten 10% ethanol since day one and don't have these issues?

Not trying to argue, just seems odd that I can think of at least a half-dozen local LS1s with over 80K that have used this gas and have not had these sort of issues.

99PontTA

http://service.gm.com/gmtechlink/ima...me.html#story7 read this....carefully its right from gm..PLEASE DON"T COMMENT ON THIS UNLESS YOU READ IT CAREFULLY!

99PontTA

i'm not trying to argue either..i have the parts and gm's admission to prove it.I think the problem gets bad when you mix ethanol-water and don;t drive the car everyday.Dealer tech warned me these cars trap water in the rail..it can't get through the injectors easily and its has no place to go so it gradually buids up in the rail and lines.Of course after a few months of this lots of damage can accur.Our 99ta was only driven 10k a year... and sat during the winters.One more thing is the O2 carrying ethanol mixed with water gets corrosive fast.