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Old 09-30-2011, 11:03 AM   #1
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Default Check your Moser axles...

A lot of you have seen my home built Ford 9" thread that I started almost a year ago. Well needless to say I have been threw hell with this rear end trying to figure out why it is making so much gear noise and why it is eating up ring and pinions. I have been changing parts around thinking they are bad. I have had at least 4 ring and pinions in it, 3 different cases, 1 original Ford, the Yukon threw bolt, and now a Strange Nodular. The same result every time. I can get picture perfect patterns on the bench but as soon as I stick the center section in the car the drive pattern moves to the outer edge of the tooth and just chews itself up under load.

I have had my housing checked with a straight bar threw it and it was not even a 1/16" off at each end. I went on and had it straighten dead straight with the bar threw it, now it is perfect. I put it back together and was still getting the same thing. Really loud almost grinding gear noise.

At this point the only thing that I have not checked is the Moser axles. The first time I ordered the axles from them one of them was an inch to short, they admitted it was their fault and sent me one the right length. Well this is the second one they sent me in the video. I don’t know who they have running the lathe or cutting/machining axles over there but they need their *** kicked and should be fired. The last time I put the rear in the car after I drove it and it sounded like ****, I put it on jack stands and ran at idle in 6th gear and notice my passenger side wheel wobbling. More up and down than side to side.

The axles are straight but the longer of the 2 or my passenger side axle is machined .015 off center where the wheel bearing is pressed on causing my wheel to wobble. Well when the car is on the ground and the wheel bearing is being held in by the retaining plate and the housing the wobble is being transferred into the center section causing all kinds of **** to happen. With .008 backlash and an axle with .015 run out wobbling it doesn’t take a genius to figure out what is going to happen.


http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=BMLouIGd53k


Here is what the gears have been doing, look at the top left corner of the drive side of the ring gear and you can see where it has been running.

Click the image to open in full size.

Click the image to open in full size.

Here are pictures of the patterns I have been getting, I think they look pretty danm good.

Click the image to open in full size.

Click the image to open in full size.


This shows the uneven wear pattern on the carrier/posi bearings showing that it has been wobbling.


Click the image to open in full size.

I will be in contact with them and will be posting my progress on this thread.
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Old 09-30-2011, 12:16 PM   #2
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I am being told by the vendor that I bought the axles from that Moser will take care of me on this, so we shall see.
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Old 09-30-2011, 05:14 PM   #3
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Good luck man. They definitely need to take care of this and then some for you.
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Old 09-30-2011, 05:38 PM   #4
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what a nightmare. You would think they would check there work b4 they send out there product.
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Old 10-01-2011, 01:53 AM   #5
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This isnt the first time I heard someone complain about problems with Moser axles. If you need axles get them from Strange.
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Old 10-01-2011, 07:59 AM   #6
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I have a new 9" from Quick Performance, but have not installed it yet. Thanks for the heads up on Moser as I have Moser axles. But, how does the off center outer bearing mount cause trouble on the ring gear and pinion, as the axle spline into the spider has some freedom of movement? I will check my axles, but just wondering how this caused trouble on the ring gear?
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Old 10-01-2011, 08:05 AM   #7
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I talked to the vendor, not mentioning name, last night. They looked at the video and said that is not the way to measure an axle for run out.

The video I made at work, which I didn’t have time to pull the studs out, or take the backing plate and bearings off. So I took them both to a friend’s house last night and pressed the wheel bearings off, took the studs out so that I just had a bare axle. I laid the axle in V blocks at the splines and where the wheel bearing goes. Both of these areas should be dead straight. Guess what .015 to .017 run out on the flange where the wheel bolts. It doesn’t matter how you check it the run out will still be there it just moves around depending on where you check it. I measured the other one the same way and it still shows straight.

They told me to call Moser and that I need to send it to them and they will determine if its bad/bent or whatever. I have read on other forums about guys sending them bent axles and getting the same one back that has been straightened. The other problem with these axles is the hub centric in the middle of the axle does not engage the wheel; it does not stick out far enough. Your wheel is relying on the suds to center the wheel. Well with screw in studs, with lock washers behind them, the studs do not stick out straight. I am probably going to run the studs without the lock washers behind them. If you look at a 10 bolt axle the centric sticks out at least 1.5".
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Old 10-03-2011, 08:21 AM   #8
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Quote:
Originally Posted by GTMLS3 View Post
I have a new 9" from Quick Performance, but have not installed it yet. Thanks for the heads up on Moser as I have Moser axles. But, how does the off center outer bearing mount cause trouble on the ring gear and pinion, as the axle spline into the spider has some freedom of movement? I will check my axles, but just wondering how this caused trouble on the ring gear?
It may or may not be causing the ring and pinion problem, but at this point I am looking for anything that could be wrong with my setup. I would definatlly be checking the axles. I bought these axles threw Quick Performance, and most of the other parts that are in this rear end. They have been great to deal with and are more than willing to help me out. So, I am not knocking them at all. They have no control over Moser machining an axle wrong. The other problem that I had was my axles were about 1/16" too long and were bottoming out in the posi. I shortend them so they were not hitting anymore. I tore the center section down last night and now the carrier bearings are wearing straight, and the ring and pinion does not have the funny looking wear marks out on the end of the teeth. So, between my housing being dead straight now, axles not hitting inside the posi, and getting a good straight axle from Moser, I think I shoudl be good to go.

So, make sure you measure your axles before you run them so that you know that they are not going to hit inside your posi or whatever you are running. The first time I ordered them I had one that was an inch too short, then I ended up with both of them being too long.
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Old 10-03-2011, 12:47 PM   #9
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Just got off the phone with Moser. They are more than willing to help me out and are being really nice about it. I am going to send them the axle and let them take a look at it.
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Old 10-10-2011, 02:33 PM   #10
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Just got off the phone with Moser. Looks like I was right the wheel bearing press on surface is machined .015 off center in relation to the splines. They are refunding my shipping, sending me a new axle, and new wheel bearings. They told me that it should have never made it out of the door like that. Quick Performance is telling me that I should go after them for a new ring and pinion. What do you guys think?
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Old 10-10-2011, 03:40 PM   #11
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I'm surprised Moser stepped up..
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Old 10-11-2011, 02:02 AM   #12
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Moser seems to have had extreme difficulties providing quality products in the past. They are however the cheapest on rear ends for these cars though, so I guess you can't have your cake and eat it to. Nice that they are accepting responsibility.
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Old 10-11-2011, 11:52 PM   #13
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I have lots of experience with rear axles, the run out you measured is NOT the problem. Lets not get into the right way to check for run out, it's not relevant. Send the axles back and let Moser check them.

Are you sure one of the axles is not bottoming out in the carrier? If you're sure my advice, go back to the carrier, ring and pinion. That's the problem area for what you're seeing. Double check the bearing crush on the carrier and the pinion gear. Did you use a spacer and shims or crush sleeve on the pinion? Did you really check the preload on the carrier?

The best way to set up a 9" Ford is follow the instructions in a factory Ford shop manual for a pick-up or full size car. No short cuts, do it by the book.

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Old 10-12-2011, 07:50 AM   #14
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Quote:
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I have lots of experience with rear axles, the run out you measured is NOT the problem. Lets not get into the right way to check for run out, it's not relevant. Send the axles back and let Moser check them.

Are you sure one of the axles is not bottoming out in the carrier? If you're sure my advice, go back to the carrier, ring and pinion. That's the problem area for what you're seeing. Double check the bearing crush on the carrier and the pinion gear. Did you use a spacer and shims or crush sleeve on the pinion? Did you really check the preload on the carrier?

The best way to set up a 9" Ford is follow the instructions in a factory Ford shop manual for a pick-up or full size car. No short cuts, do it by the book.

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I have a 1975 Ford F150 manual, original Ford manual. I follow it every time. Bearing preload is set per the manual. The axles were bottoming out in the posi, but are not now. Apparentlly Quick Performance told Moser I was running a spool, so they made them a little longer. When I am running a posi and they needed to be shorter. I had to take an 1/8" off each one.
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Old 10-13-2011, 12:33 AM   #15
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Quote:
Originally Posted by 96lt4c4 View Post
I have a 1975 Ford F150 manual, original Ford manual. I follow it every time. Bearing preload is set per the manual. The axles were bottoming out in the posi, but are not now. Apparentlly Quick Performance told Moser I was running a spool, so they made them a little longer. When I am running a posi and they needed to be shorter. I had to take an 1/8" off each one.
The bearing damage looks like a preload issue. You're sure you set the preload with the pinion support removed?

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Old 10-13-2011, 12:11 PM   #16
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Quote:
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The bearing damage looks like a preload issue. You're sure you set the preload with the pinion support removed?

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Yes, I use the end of an old 31 spline axle, with a nut welded to it to check the preload.

Also my Ford manual says pinion preload can be as high as 30 1/2 inch pounds. Have you ever set them that high? Mine are at about 19 inch pounds right now.
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Old 10-13-2011, 12:54 PM   #17
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Quote:
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Yes, I use the end of an old 31 spline axle, with a nut welded to it to check the preload.

Also my Ford manual says pinion preload can be as high as 30 1/2 inch pounds. Have you ever set them that high? Mine are at about 19 inch pounds right now.
I don't remember, but your numbers seem high to me. I think?? it's around 10 to 15 inch pounds for used bearings. I'm still not convinced the axles are not bottoming out in the carrier. This will screw things up big time as the bearing opposite the axle that hits will go South quick.

If I think of it I'll look in my manual for the preload numbers.. I have CRS, but I'll try to remember.

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Old 10-13-2011, 01:18 PM   #18
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I don't remember, but your numbers seem high to me. I think?? it's around 10 to 15 inch pounds for used bearings. I'm still not convinced the axles are not bottoming out in the carrier. This will screw things up big time as the bearing opposite the axle that hits will go South quick.

If I think of it I'll look in my manual for the preload numbers.. I have CRS, but I'll try to remember.

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These numbers are for brand new Timken bearings.

As far as the axles hitting in the posi, Moser pulled my invoice and asked what I was running for a diferential. I told them a billet Trac Lock. Well when Quick Performance ordered my axles they told Moser I was running a spool, which we all know does not have a pin threw it. I orderd the posi threw QP so they knew what I was running. Anyway, Moser told me that the make the axles a little longer if the person is runnig a spool and that is why I had to shorten my axles. So QP may have screwed me on that one. But, I also should have measured. I did have to take about 1/16" off of them because they were hitting. I know for a fact they are not now though.

I also have my new axle from Moser

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Old 10-13-2011, 01:25 PM   #19
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Also I have a question for you, I have my pinion support setup. Everything is new including the ring and pinion and pinion support itself. I put the support in a vice and checked it for run out with a dial indicator on the pinion snout bearing surface and I am getting .001 runout. Is it aceptable to have any runout at all here? This is on a new Yukon 3.89 R&P.

I could not find anything about checking this in the manual.
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Old 10-13-2011, 01:41 PM   #20
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Just thought of something, when you pulled the third member was there metal in the oil? This could also explain the bearing's frosty appearance.

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Old 10-13-2011, 01:41 PM
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