Moser strikes again
01-15-2005, 06:03 PM
#1
Moser strikes again I finally got around to fixing my Moser 12-bolt after grenading it at Thunder this year. I pulled it apart, spent about two hours cleaning out what was left of my ring and pinion then started setting up the new gears. When I got the backlash close I ran a pattern only to find out the pattern sucked! I used the same pinion shims Moser had originally used and the pinion depth was WAY off. The pinion was riding way up on the very corner of the face. Who taught these people how to setup rearends?!?! Maybe with it setup properly it won't break and I will be able to actually here my open headers over my gear whine!
01-15-2005, 07:03 PM
#2
LOL! I hear ya on the gear whine.... I've had 3 sets of gears in my Moser in the last 2 years. The last was set up locally, and were relatively quiet until this past season..... guess the launches took their toll on the pinion spacer.... should've gone solid. Dunno. What I do know is that when the gear whine makes a TD/bullet/dumped set up seem quiet.... the car doesn't get driven very far for very long. Looking to do yet another swap this spring w/a solid spacer. If that doesn't do it....I give up on a quiet rear.
01-15-2005, 08:00 PM
#3
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Not a flame but there is a reason they have shim kits.You set the pinion depth then backlash and get a patern,very seldom will the old shims be good enough with a new gear set.My 10 bolt w/4.10s started whining after a few low 1.8x's with nittos,should I blame moser? Thank God moser and a few others make a 12 bolt for these cars.BTW my moser 4.10 12 bolt is dead quiet.
01-15-2005, 09:14 PM
#4
Originally Posted by B18B1LS1
I finally got around to fixing my Moser 12-bolt after grenading it at Thunder this year. I pulled it apart, spent about two hours cleaning out what was left of my ring and pinion then started setting up the new gears. When I got the backlash close I ran a pattern only to find out the pattern sucked! I used the same pinion shims Moser had originally used and the pinion depth was WAY off. The pinion was riding way up on the very corner of the face. Who taught these people how to setup rearends?!?! Maybe with it setup properly it won't break and I will be able to actually here my open headers over my gear whine!
No offense, aftermarket gears seldom need the same shims. Set a lot of gears up, and you will find the same. GM gears often set up fine with the same shims as the last gear set, but I have not found that to be the case with aftermarket gears. My Moser has been quite, and had no problems at all with it. Several local cars have had the same experience as I.
Good luck with your new gears, Ed
01-15-2005, 11:01 PM
#5
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Most gears will be very close with the original shim. The majority of the variance is in the housing and not the gear sets, although they do both have some. I usually measure the old pinion head and the new then make up the difference with the shims, but it is rarely a large difference. I deffinetly wouldnt expect it to be as far off as he is descibing it unless one of the bearings or races wasnt seated properly or there was another problem. You should be able to see what the wear pattern was on the old gear set from some of the pieces.
Like said already, use a solid spacer, it will help maintain your pinion bearing preload. Make sure your backlash is right, your carrier bearings are preloaded, and your pattern is good. Depending on what gears you bought you might not see what you consider a normal pattern due to different types of gear cuts (3 or 5 cut).
Like said already, use a solid spacer, it will help maintain your pinion bearing preload. Make sure your backlash is right, your carrier bearings are preloaded, and your pattern is good. Depending on what gears you bought you might not see what you consider a normal pattern due to different types of gear cuts (3 or 5 cut).
01-16-2005, 06:36 AM
#6
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mzoomora, is on the money again. I do not set up gears for a living, but have built a 1/2 dozen or so and every one of them has used the same thickness of pinion shim that was originally used in that housing. Now if you swap gears out of one housing and into another, there is a much greater chance that you will need a different thickness shim.
01-16-2005, 08:52 AM
#7
Originally Posted by BOWTIE
mzoomora, is on the money again. I do not set up gears for a living, but have built a 1/2 dozen or so and every one of them has used the same thickness of pinion shim that was originally used in that housing. Now if you swap gears out of one housing and into another, there is a much greater chance that you will need a different thickness shim.
If you notice the different cd marking on the ends of the pinions you will see that after been run in on the gleason machine, they don't all end up with the same depth specified. You can get away without it being dead nuts. Depends on how close you want it to be. Best to use a measuring tool for the pinion depth.
Ed
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01-16-2005, 10:28 AM
#8
Originally Posted by BOWTIE
mzoomora, is on the money again. I do not set up gears for a living, but have built a 1/2 dozen or so and every one of them has used the same thickness of pinion shim that was originally used in that housing. Now if you swap gears out of one housing and into another, there is a much greater chance that you will need a different thickness shim.
I don't care what was in it, thats why I measure and change it if needed. And you may have to cheat pinion depth and backlash settings sometimes to get a perfect pattern.
01-16-2005, 10:41 AM
#9
In my case, the last two sets were Moser's gears(4.10/4.56's)and backlash/pinion depth/races seated/bearings pre-loaded/pattern good. Set them up a bit tight so I knew they'd be a little noisy, but really were livable until toward the end of last season.
Still think the solid sleeve will help alot, and am leaning toward housing tolerance varience as the culprit also. Not a gear pro though....
Still think the solid sleeve will help alot, and am leaning toward housing tolerance varience as the culprit also. Not a gear pro though....
01-16-2005, 10:49 AM
#10
Originally Posted by DynoDR
You may do 2 dozen that will use the same shim and the next dozen will be different. Also depending on what type gears you are replacing with will have alot to do with it also.
I don't care what was in it, thats why I measure and change it if needed. And you may have to cheat pinion depth and backlash settings sometimes to get a perfect pattern.
I don't care what was in it, thats why I measure and change it if needed. And you may have to cheat pinion depth and backlash settings sometimes to get a perfect pattern.
Ed
01-16-2005, 10:50 AM
#11
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Originally Posted by B18B1LS1
Who taught these people how to setup rearends?!?! Maybe with it setup properly it won't break and I will be able to actually here my open headers over my gear whine!
tell me about it I bought my[moser 12 bolt] and it didnt have the cross pin that gos thought the carrier.then they wont fix the damb thing. I had to buy all the parts and pay for the set up W T F !!! then they keep breaking on me. once again is it just me. I only have 397 rwhp on motor
01-16-2005, 11:08 AM
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The old shim is just intended to be a starting point, which should be pretty close. The pinion depth is actually checked off of the pinion head, which is why I measure them, it saves the step of using the depth tool twice. I use it after I have it mocked up with my new figured shim. There are also master housing depths that are used for housings that didnt have a gear in them to begin with. All of these measurements are based on the size of the pinion head, because that is where most of the variance is at. All the math and measuring in the world doesnt replace checking a pattern. I have set up too many rears to count and over half of them are right on the first time I put them in. I still use dummy bearings for initial set up to check my pattern though.
The end result is as far off as he is saying it is now, it had to be pretty far off to begin with, and I would like to see the wear pattern on the old gears. I think these new 12 bolt housings just arent built with the tolerances that the old housing were. That, and I have a lot of experience dealing with Strange product, and I would have more of a tendency to trust them.
The end result is as far off as he is saying it is now, it had to be pretty far off to begin with, and I would like to see the wear pattern on the old gears. I think these new 12 bolt housings just arent built with the tolerances that the old housing were. That, and I have a lot of experience dealing with Strange product, and I would have more of a tendency to trust them.
01-16-2005, 12:39 PM
#13
Originally Posted by mzoomora
The old shim is just intended to be a starting point, which should be pretty close. The pinion depth is actually checked off of the pinion head, which is why I measure them, it saves the step of using the depth tool twice. I use it after I have it mocked up with my new figured shim. There are also master housing depths that are used for housings that didnt have a gear in them to begin with. All of these measurements are based on the size of the pinion head, because that is where most of the variance is at. All the math and measuring in the world doesnt replace checking a pattern. I have set up too many rears to count and over half of them are right on the first time I put them in. I still use dummy bearings for initial set up to check my pattern though.
The end result is as far off as he is saying it is now, it had to be pretty far off to begin with, and I would like to see the wear pattern on the old gears. I think these new 12 bolt housings just arent built with the tolerances that the old housing were. That, and I have a lot of experience dealing with Strange product, and I would have more of a tendency to trust them.
The end result is as far off as he is saying it is now, it had to be pretty far off to begin with, and I would like to see the wear pattern on the old gears. I think these new 12 bolt housings just arent built with the tolerances that the old housing were. That, and I have a lot of experience dealing with Strange product, and I would have more of a tendency to trust them.
thats some good info. mzoomora
lettin a reputable shop do my ring and pinion gear swap.sorry to hear about the other guys problem with thier moser rearends.mines been holding up fine and no whine at all.maybe its because I cant hear it the car is too damm loud. 
01-17-2005, 04:31 PM
#14
I figured that replacing Moser gears with Moser gears the pinion shims would at least be close. But I don't know what kind of tolerances they are built to so I do see what ya'll are saying. Anyway I got it all setup and ready to go just to find out that when my rear let go it took out my TH400 with it. When it rains it pours!
