Cam Gurus, Haters and Nut Huggers
10-08-2013, 10:56 PM
#1
Cam Gurus, Haters and Nut Huggers I have been kind of intrigued by the dynamics of cam trends on this site. The older threads that I read mainly touted vendors, like: “this vendor has the best performing cams”. Then there were the pet name cams: You got to have the Godzilla cam man! Then the great lobe awakening!: Your camshaft will only perform if it has the right lobes. Then the custom cam gurus: Your car can't possibly make any horsepower unless it is custom spec for your engine. Never mind the fact that you have roughly the same combo as half the guys on the site. Your car is special. It is really interesting watching each come in and out of vogue. Some vendors melt down, some just fade away. A few have staying power. Some cam gurus are universally beloved while others are controversial.
The Nut Huggers:
If you want to have a cam conversation, you will quickly get what the nut hugger poster thinks should be /end-thread. The ever popular: “Call cam guru of the week” advice. I have seen some members that have made me wonder if they ever post anything else. I wonder if they just lay in wait for a thread with cam in the title ready to pounce with their favorite gurus screen name at a moments notice.
The Haters:
The hater attacks the cam guru or vendor as if their attack is going to earn them recognition for exposing “the real truth”. Most of the time you know the thread is screwed the minute that they have posted. You don't even need to read their post to know the thread is going to turn into a display of emotional issues worthy of extensive psychiatric evaluation.
Meet the Cam Gurus. So what is a cam guru? Where do they come from? How do they do what they do? I suspect there are quite a few ways they come to be known:
The salty dog:
The guy has been doing it since the beginning of time. He has a shop and races some and has decades of performance experience. His cams are based on his experiences of what he has done and what he has seen over the years.
The famous racer:
This guy has had so much racing success and is so fast that anything he says must be gold. End of discussion.
The engine builder:
This guy runs a machine shop. He may or may not have an engine dyno, but he has built thousands of engines and has a great deal of feed back from his customers results on which he bases his designs.
The performance specialty shop owner:
This guy is typically king of the wheel dyno. He gets to see the results of his work on a dyno sheet and from customer feed back. He hangs his hat on his most impressive dyno sheet results.
The catalog junky:
This is the guy who has read every cam catalog printed or published online – repeatedly. He can quote cams from his catalogs like a preacher can quote the bible. Just tell him the engine and intended RPM range and he will give you the part number.
The computer nerd:
This is the guy who has the engine analyzer/desk top dyno software. He feeds in all the data from your engine: head flow, displacement, compression, intake manifold design, shift extension and launch RPM then runs his iterator simulations on thousands of possible combinations until his software tells him he has the exact perfect grind for your exact engine.
For the record, the above cam guru stereotypes were created to be entertaining. Most people are a combination of a few of the types above. But I really wonder if people consider how somebody comes to be a cam guru. How many people really ask themselves: Who is this guy? What is the process he uses to spec a cam? Do people ask themselves why 4 different known and respected cam gurus will tell you 4 different sets of specs for the same combos? If there is only 1 perfect cam, how can this be?
I created a thread a year or so ago that turned out to be really fascinating. I listed all the details of my cars build. I asked the LS1Tech members to take a shot at specifying a cam for my combo. Simultaneously, I contacted some of the top cam experts and gurus for recommendations. Then, I took all of the experts recommendations and averaged them out. Next I took all the the LS1Tech members recommendations and averaged them out. The cam specs were almost identical. They were withing a few degrees of one another. That camshaft is in my car to this day. It works great. While there were dozens of recommendations, for the most part they did not vary a great deal. The funny thing is, in all those people, there were certainly salty dogs, engine builders, racers, catalog junkies, computer nerds and speed shop owners. All with different experiences and all with different techniques for specifying a cam. Still they all came up with remarkably similar recommendations.
The thing that becomes apparent to me is that there is not just one way to get the right cam. It does not even really matter if the computer nerd has never even touched motor oil in his life. If his computer program draws from the data of real world results, there is a pretty good chance his program is going to spit out a good grind for the application. It also doesn't really matter if the salty dog can't articulate the science of a camshaft. If he has seen or worked on a great performing car similar to yours he can tell you what that camshaft was and it will likely work for you too. Whichever cam guru type inspires your confidence is up to you. But, I just hope you ask: How is it that this guy is a cam expert? And: What process does he use to specify a cam?
So, the next time you see that thread title: “Cam Gurus Come Inside”, I hope this thread comes to mind. And buckle up. The nut huggers and haters will be along soon...........................
The Nut Huggers:
If you want to have a cam conversation, you will quickly get what the nut hugger poster thinks should be /end-thread. The ever popular: “Call cam guru of the week” advice. I have seen some members that have made me wonder if they ever post anything else. I wonder if they just lay in wait for a thread with cam in the title ready to pounce with their favorite gurus screen name at a moments notice.
The Haters:
The hater attacks the cam guru or vendor as if their attack is going to earn them recognition for exposing “the real truth”. Most of the time you know the thread is screwed the minute that they have posted. You don't even need to read their post to know the thread is going to turn into a display of emotional issues worthy of extensive psychiatric evaluation.
Meet the Cam Gurus. So what is a cam guru? Where do they come from? How do they do what they do? I suspect there are quite a few ways they come to be known:
The salty dog:
The guy has been doing it since the beginning of time. He has a shop and races some and has decades of performance experience. His cams are based on his experiences of what he has done and what he has seen over the years.
The famous racer:
This guy has had so much racing success and is so fast that anything he says must be gold. End of discussion.
The engine builder:
This guy runs a machine shop. He may or may not have an engine dyno, but he has built thousands of engines and has a great deal of feed back from his customers results on which he bases his designs.
The performance specialty shop owner:
This guy is typically king of the wheel dyno. He gets to see the results of his work on a dyno sheet and from customer feed back. He hangs his hat on his most impressive dyno sheet results.
The catalog junky:
This is the guy who has read every cam catalog printed or published online – repeatedly. He can quote cams from his catalogs like a preacher can quote the bible. Just tell him the engine and intended RPM range and he will give you the part number.
The computer nerd:
This is the guy who has the engine analyzer/desk top dyno software. He feeds in all the data from your engine: head flow, displacement, compression, intake manifold design, shift extension and launch RPM then runs his iterator simulations on thousands of possible combinations until his software tells him he has the exact perfect grind for your exact engine.
For the record, the above cam guru stereotypes were created to be entertaining. Most people are a combination of a few of the types above. But I really wonder if people consider how somebody comes to be a cam guru. How many people really ask themselves: Who is this guy? What is the process he uses to spec a cam? Do people ask themselves why 4 different known and respected cam gurus will tell you 4 different sets of specs for the same combos? If there is only 1 perfect cam, how can this be?
I created a thread a year or so ago that turned out to be really fascinating. I listed all the details of my cars build. I asked the LS1Tech members to take a shot at specifying a cam for my combo. Simultaneously, I contacted some of the top cam experts and gurus for recommendations. Then, I took all of the experts recommendations and averaged them out. Next I took all the the LS1Tech members recommendations and averaged them out. The cam specs were almost identical. They were withing a few degrees of one another. That camshaft is in my car to this day. It works great. While there were dozens of recommendations, for the most part they did not vary a great deal. The funny thing is, in all those people, there were certainly salty dogs, engine builders, racers, catalog junkies, computer nerds and speed shop owners. All with different experiences and all with different techniques for specifying a cam. Still they all came up with remarkably similar recommendations.
The thing that becomes apparent to me is that there is not just one way to get the right cam. It does not even really matter if the computer nerd has never even touched motor oil in his life. If his computer program draws from the data of real world results, there is a pretty good chance his program is going to spit out a good grind for the application. It also doesn't really matter if the salty dog can't articulate the science of a camshaft. If he has seen or worked on a great performing car similar to yours he can tell you what that camshaft was and it will likely work for you too. Whichever cam guru type inspires your confidence is up to you. But, I just hope you ask: How is it that this guy is a cam expert? And: What process does he use to specify a cam?
So, the next time you see that thread title: “Cam Gurus Come Inside”, I hope this thread comes to mind. And buckle up. The nut huggers and haters will be along soon...........................
Last edited by speedtigger; 12-17-2013 at 01:12 PM.
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DavidBoren (08-14-2020), DualQuadDave (08-20-2020)
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10-09-2013, 06:39 AM
#8
TECH Resident
Join Date: Sep 2003
Location: Working in the shop 24/7
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Steve,
You need to add the other end of the spectrum:
Know-it-alls: These are the people going on EVERY forum asking which camshaft profile they should use on their oddball combination, but argue with the real experts who are trying to help.
Spec Parasites: These are the people going on EVERY forum asking every business which camshaft profile they should use, only to gather the information and order one from their buddy.
Camshaft Geeks: These are the people going on EVERY forum asking for all kinds of profile information so they can run it through their internet camshaft program and check things like DCR, overlap and other data, even though they haven't even bought the car yet.
Buddy Boys: These are the people going to EVERY forum telling members to use the same camshaft his "buddy" has in his car because it sounds so rowdy.
Google Bingers: These are the people who go on a search engine to do their research and come up with a typical "What if" thread on EVERY forum with all their findings.
Poll Vaulters: These are the people who going on EVERY forum to run a poll on what to use in their combination and expect a valid answer. This is also where the "Buddy Boys" gang tend to frequent and add their advice.
Just add as you see fit...
You need to add the other end of the spectrum:
Know-it-alls: These are the people going on EVERY forum asking which camshaft profile they should use on their oddball combination, but argue with the real experts who are trying to help.
Spec Parasites: These are the people going on EVERY forum asking every business which camshaft profile they should use, only to gather the information and order one from their buddy.
Camshaft Geeks: These are the people going on EVERY forum asking for all kinds of profile information so they can run it through their internet camshaft program and check things like DCR, overlap and other data, even though they haven't even bought the car yet.
Buddy Boys: These are the people going to EVERY forum telling members to use the same camshaft his "buddy" has in his car because it sounds so rowdy.
Google Bingers: These are the people who go on a search engine to do their research and come up with a typical "What if" thread on EVERY forum with all their findings.
Poll Vaulters: These are the people who going on EVERY forum to run a poll on what to use in their combination and expect a valid answer. This is also where the "Buddy Boys" gang tend to frequent and add their advice.
Just add as you see fit...
10-09-2013, 08:44 AM
#10
This is truly one of the most fascinating cam shaft threads I've ever read on this site. To be honest, it should be stickied in the internal engine section for each gen III, IV, and V. I'll also agree with JD AMG that it can easily be applied to essentially any modification one may do on any vehicle.
Throughout my time on this site (and my evolution of a site lurker, to a dreamer, to an owner, a "buddy boy," "know-it-all," etc.) I'd like to think I've seen it all. What you were able to surmise and assemble above is what I believe to be "required reading" for anyone who needs to go through life as a critical thinker -- ie: EVERYONE.
There is no "one right way" to do anything. Scientific management had its day, but we now know there are qualitative aspects that the theory missed (that workers are actually humans, for example). The same can be said about modifying their LS1. Things have changed quite a bit since the days of the Whisper Lid, Grots, and Chris Endres' Chevy LS1/LS6 Performance book.
I know I'm rambling, but this is one of the more intelligent posts as of late. God, has it really been 10 years since I joined this site?!
Throughout my time on this site (and my evolution of a site lurker, to a dreamer, to an owner, a "buddy boy," "know-it-all," etc.) I'd like to think I've seen it all. What you were able to surmise and assemble above is what I believe to be "required reading" for anyone who needs to go through life as a critical thinker -- ie: EVERYONE.
There is no "one right way" to do anything. Scientific management had its day, but we now know there are qualitative aspects that the theory missed (that workers are actually humans, for example). The same can be said about modifying their LS1. Things have changed quite a bit since the days of the Whisper Lid, Grots, and Chris Endres' Chevy LS1/LS6 Performance book.
I know I'm rambling, but this is one of the more intelligent posts as of late. God, has it really been 10 years since I joined this site?!
10-09-2013, 01:34 PM
#11
About the only thing I can add to the above posts are the real wild cards. The end user! Sure there are several cams that will work in any engine combo, but the difference in said grinds are what the end users are willing to live with in their cars. Some will boost upper rpm at the cost of some low end manners , others better mid range punch but limited upper rpms ,and the list goes on. Us as humans , have it built into our genes to never be satisfied and what we are willing to accept one day may not be possible to live with the next.
I don't envy any of these "Cam Gurus" on this site. Having to put up with what is probably the least content of all hobbiers , Car Guys! My hat is off to the guys that put their selves out there to massage the new heartbeat for the engines for all us " never satisfied" gear heads.
I don't envy any of these "Cam Gurus" on this site. Having to put up with what is probably the least content of all hobbiers , Car Guys! My hat is off to the guys that put their selves out there to massage the new heartbeat for the engines for all us " never satisfied" gear heads.
10-09-2013, 06:23 PM
#12
Steve,
You need to add the other end of the spectrum:
Know-it-alls: These are the people going on EVERY forum asking which camshaft profile they should use on their oddball combination, but argue with the real experts who are trying to help.
Spec Parasites: These are the people going on EVERY forum asking every business which camshaft profile they should use, only to gather the information and order one from their buddy.
Camshaft Geeks: These are the people going on EVERY forum asking for all kinds of profile information so they can run it through their internet camshaft program and check things like DCR, overlap and other data, even though they haven't even bought the car yet.
Buddy Boys: These are the people going to EVERY forum telling members to use the same camshaft his "buddy" has in his car because it sounds so rowdy.
Google Bingers: These are the people who go on a search engine to do their research and come up with a typical "What if" thread on EVERY forum with all their findings.
Poll Vaulters: These are the people who going on EVERY forum to run a poll on what to use in their combination and expect a valid answer. This is also where the "Buddy Boys" gang tend to frequent and add their advice.
Just add as you see fit...
You need to add the other end of the spectrum:
Know-it-alls: These are the people going on EVERY forum asking which camshaft profile they should use on their oddball combination, but argue with the real experts who are trying to help.
Spec Parasites: These are the people going on EVERY forum asking every business which camshaft profile they should use, only to gather the information and order one from their buddy.
Camshaft Geeks: These are the people going on EVERY forum asking for all kinds of profile information so they can run it through their internet camshaft program and check things like DCR, overlap and other data, even though they haven't even bought the car yet.
Buddy Boys: These are the people going to EVERY forum telling members to use the same camshaft his "buddy" has in his car because it sounds so rowdy.
Google Bingers: These are the people who go on a search engine to do their research and come up with a typical "What if" thread on EVERY forum with all their findings.
Poll Vaulters: These are the people who going on EVERY forum to run a poll on what to use in their combination and expect a valid answer. This is also where the "Buddy Boys" gang tend to frequent and add their advice.
Just add as you see fit...
10-09-2013, 06:27 PM
#13
10 Second Club
And don't forget the "CopyCats" or "Fishers"....
Those who search the net for any and every combo close to theirs; and fish for all the little details of said combo/s, looking for all the numbers trying to run the numbers the other guy did/does.
Those who search the net for any and every combo close to theirs; and fish for all the little details of said combo/s, looking for all the numbers trying to run the numbers the other guy did/does.
10-09-2013, 06:58 PM
#14
As I was riding in the car last night, I was thinking about the dynamics that cause this to happen. It seems to me that some people think these cam gurus and vendors should be able to walk on water. As if they descended from race mountain carrying two tablets and an unquestionable knowledge of the performance engine from god himself. Some haters think they see something in a popular guru or vendor that exposes them as fallible and suddenly they feel like they must warn the world. It begged the question: Do people really ask themselves who these gurus and vendors are and where their recommendation come from. Maybe if they think of them as just people, with ideas that are based on their experience and/or technology, we can move past all of the nut hugging and bashing and just talk about the topic at hand.
Guilty! This is actually a favorite MO of mine. Tested combos are the most credible information I know.
10-09-2013, 08:31 PM
#15
10 Second Club
DMM (old) combo with a little more compression and converter for the weight difference. Just gotta dial it in.(time and $$$)
Last edited by Doug G; 10-09-2013 at 08:36 PM.
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cam (08-21-2020)
10-10-2013, 06:51 AM
#17
Wow. Really? This was just inspired by yet another cam thread that blew up and went sideways.
As I was riding in the car last night, I was thinking about the dynamics that cause this to happen. It seems to me that some people think these cam gurus and vendors should be able to walk on water. As if they descended from race mountain carrying two tablets and an unquestionable knowledge of the performance engine from god himself. Some haters think they see something in a popular guru or vendor that exposes them as fallible and suddenly they feel like they must warn the world. It begged the question: Do people really ask themselves who these gurus and vendors are and where their recommendation come from. Maybe if they think of them as just people, with ideas that are based on their experience and/or technology, we can move past all of the nut hugging and bashing and just talk about the topic at hand.
As I was riding in the car last night, I was thinking about the dynamics that cause this to happen. It seems to me that some people think these cam gurus and vendors should be able to walk on water. As if they descended from race mountain carrying two tablets and an unquestionable knowledge of the performance engine from god himself. Some haters think they see something in a popular guru or vendor that exposes them as fallible and suddenly they feel like they must warn the world. It begged the question: Do people really ask themselves who these gurus and vendors are and where their recommendation come from. Maybe if they think of them as just people, with ideas that are based on their experience and/or technology, we can move past all of the nut hugging and bashing and just talk about the topic at hand.
10-10-2013, 08:26 AM
#18
You know, a buddy and I were discussing this exact topic the other day because he was thinking of switching out his old TR230/224 cam in his car. The car makes an impressive 399rwhp with bolt ons and on a dry 100shot picks up 108rwhp. It has a beautiful power and torque curve that peaks in the low 6000s and then carries out as far as he would ever want to rev it. Why change it? IMO the possible 5-10rwhp would not be worth the cost of parts, the time of labor, and the cost of retuning. I also think it would take a considerable jump in size to even get that from it...his combo is flat out working.
My point was that based on all the dyno results on this website, all the magazine back to back tests, and all the real world results I have personally witnessed is that most people stick to the same basic bolt on or budget head combos...and then they put WAY to much stress over the cam specs when in reality they could take a handful of cams even remotely similar in size and never know the difference between them. The exclusion being obscure LSA and advance combinations that are wrong for the RPM range or lobes that destroy valvetrain parts.
When my last cam went flat I found a few vendors who had something in the basic range I was looking at and just wanted whichever one I could get with the powerband I wanted to ship ASAP. It was by pure luck that Geoff was getting ready to send an order in and piggybacked mine so it would be cut and shipped within a couple days so I let him spec me out something and I am very happy with it.
My point was that based on all the dyno results on this website, all the magazine back to back tests, and all the real world results I have personally witnessed is that most people stick to the same basic bolt on or budget head combos...and then they put WAY to much stress over the cam specs when in reality they could take a handful of cams even remotely similar in size and never know the difference between them. The exclusion being obscure LSA and advance combinations that are wrong for the RPM range or lobes that destroy valvetrain parts.
When my last cam went flat I found a few vendors who had something in the basic range I was looking at and just wanted whichever one I could get with the powerband I wanted to ship ASAP. It was by pure luck that Geoff was getting ready to send an order in and piggybacked mine so it would be cut and shipped within a couple days so I let him spec me out something and I am very happy with it.
10-11-2013, 07:27 AM
#19
You know, a buddy and I were discussing this exact topic the other day because he was thinking of switching out his old TR230/224 cam in his car. The car makes an impressive 399rwhp with bolt ons and on a dry 100shot picks up 108rwhp. It has a beautiful power and torque curve that peaks in the low 6000s and then carries out as far as he would ever want to rev it. Why change it? IMO the possible 5-10rwhp would not be worth the cost of parts, the time of labor, and the cost of retuning. I also think it would take a considerable jump in size to even get that from it...his combo is flat out working.
My point was that based on all the dyno results on this website, all the magazine back to back tests, and all the real world results I have personally witnessed is that most people stick to the same basic bolt on or budget head combos...and then they put WAY to much stress over the cam specs when in reality they could take a handful of cams even remotely similar in size and never know the difference between them. The exclusion being obscure LSA and advance combinations that are wrong for the RPM range or lobes that destroy valvetrain parts.
When my last cam went flat I found a few vendors who had something in the basic range I was looking at and just wanted whichever one I could get with the powerband I wanted to ship ASAP. It was by pure luck that Geoff was getting ready to send an order in and piggybacked mine so it would be cut and shipped within a couple days so I let him spec me out something and I am very happy with it.
My point was that based on all the dyno results on this website, all the magazine back to back tests, and all the real world results I have personally witnessed is that most people stick to the same basic bolt on or budget head combos...and then they put WAY to much stress over the cam specs when in reality they could take a handful of cams even remotely similar in size and never know the difference between them. The exclusion being obscure LSA and advance combinations that are wrong for the RPM range or lobes that destroy valvetrain parts.
When my last cam went flat I found a few vendors who had something in the basic range I was looking at and just wanted whichever one I could get with the powerband I wanted to ship ASAP. It was by pure luck that Geoff was getting ready to send an order in and piggybacked mine so it would be cut and shipped within a couple days so I let him spec me out something and I am very happy with it.
It sure makes you feel superior, though, when your cam guy tells you his IC/EO br549- triple bump back, over shoot charge trapping, back wards quetis pushing, lobe slap back over the under their special design, just for you camshaft will give you the advantage over everyone elses IC/EO br549.......you get the picture. 90% smoke and mirrors, IMO.
10-11-2013, 11:17 AM
#20
I disagree. To me, "smoke and mirrors" implies intentional deception. I think most of the vendors and gurus legitimately try to give you the best camshaft possible.
Here is where I worry. When what is said is: "you need this exact valve event" down to the degree, I suspect this is software giving this data. Now that is not necessarily a bad thing, but there has to be real world experience to go along with that.
Here is a perfect example: Recently Brian Tooley shared a dyno test that he commissioned. The test turned up some very interesting information regarding exhaust duration and more specifically the EVO event. He found the he could open the exhaust valve much sooner than the conventional wisdom would say. Now if the software he uses or anyone else uses, did not know that, it is very obvious that software is not all knowing. And if it is not all knowing, you have to look at the the suggestions it generates for what they are which is a ballpark and not gospel.
Now you take somebody like Brian Tooley who has tons of real world experience and feedback and then his cam iterator results can be interpreted and validated. He can look at the results and know what the program likely has right and where it may be off. For example: He can put in a known combo and see that the iterator spits out a 239/250 110+1. He can say yeah that cam does work good in this 408, but it made more power advanced 4 degrees. He knows how to tweak the results. So when the next profile comes out for a similar engine he might say, yeah I am going to advance this one another 3 degrees because I know this program can be a little off in that area.
Yet another thing to consider is that many experts have sweet spots. Areas where they have a great deal of experience. If a cam vendor spends all day doing camshafts for LS1 Street cars, he will know a ton about them and likely be a great vendor for that cam. Conversely, if you ask him to spec a cam for a Outlaw Drag Radial car, he will likely be out of his area of knowledge and the results will suffer. A perfect example is when people like me started putting single plane intakes and carburetors on LS engines. The younger cam gurus know nothing about what those intakes like and were specifying cams similar to what is used on car with the long runner plastic intakes. They did not know that the single plane intake was going to want a earlier intake valve close and a narrower lobe separation angle for a given RPM range. In this case, somebody with a longer career likely would have caught that. A "salty dog" vs. a "nerd" if you will.
Here is where I worry. When what is said is: "you need this exact valve event" down to the degree, I suspect this is software giving this data. Now that is not necessarily a bad thing, but there has to be real world experience to go along with that.
Here is a perfect example: Recently Brian Tooley shared a dyno test that he commissioned. The test turned up some very interesting information regarding exhaust duration and more specifically the EVO event. He found the he could open the exhaust valve much sooner than the conventional wisdom would say. Now if the software he uses or anyone else uses, did not know that, it is very obvious that software is not all knowing. And if it is not all knowing, you have to look at the the suggestions it generates for what they are which is a ballpark and not gospel.
Now you take somebody like Brian Tooley who has tons of real world experience and feedback and then his cam iterator results can be interpreted and validated. He can look at the results and know what the program likely has right and where it may be off. For example: He can put in a known combo and see that the iterator spits out a 239/250 110+1. He can say yeah that cam does work good in this 408, but it made more power advanced 4 degrees. He knows how to tweak the results. So when the next profile comes out for a similar engine he might say, yeah I am going to advance this one another 3 degrees because I know this program can be a little off in that area.
Yet another thing to consider is that many experts have sweet spots. Areas where they have a great deal of experience. If a cam vendor spends all day doing camshafts for LS1 Street cars, he will know a ton about them and likely be a great vendor for that cam. Conversely, if you ask him to spec a cam for a Outlaw Drag Radial car, he will likely be out of his area of knowledge and the results will suffer. A perfect example is when people like me started putting single plane intakes and carburetors on LS engines. The younger cam gurus know nothing about what those intakes like and were specifying cams similar to what is used on car with the long runner plastic intakes. They did not know that the single plane intake was going to want a earlier intake valve close and a narrower lobe separation angle for a given RPM range. In this case, somebody with a longer career likely would have caught that. A "salty dog" vs. a "nerd" if you will.