itsslo

Agree, it sounded more like bearings or lifters in the first video, but not at all like that in the more recent ones.

RockinWs6

I believe the air in the lifters bled out and you are hearing something else now. I'd still do the oil treatments I suggested if you want that engine to be trouble free.

MonmouthCtyLS7

iTrader: (6)

My guess would be a water bump or a belt.

z-maro

iTrader: (18)

Thanks for all the suggestions, I've been busy for the past couple of weeks but I have a few more videos for your viewing pleasure. The first one is with the main belt removed, the second is with both belts removed. The noise is still there



So does anyone else think it could be air in the lifters like RockinWS6 said and I should just drive it, or should I be saving for a new engine? As I think I mentioned above, it doesn't seem to go away when the engine gets warm (at least not after about 6 miles of driving around town).

Any other suggestions are welcome.

ULTIMATEORANGESS

iTrader: (4)

that honestly doesnt sound good.



hows your oil pressure?

Firebrian

The latest 2 video's now sound more like a bearing knock, while the previous couple were more like a air/oil gurgling/sucking sound. I got fuel into my oil on my old '79 Caddy and the sound was similar to this.

From what I've read, high levels of zinc can cause damage to stock/beyond stock performance engines under high stress loads. It might take sustained levels of 1500-1800 ppm or higher to do that. While some engine builders claim to need high Zinc for high performance flat tappet cams, I think all it does is to reduce protection. Personally, I'd be leery of going higher than 1000-1200 ppm ZDDP in a stock LS-1. I suspect the Cam 2 Blue Blood is higher than that...though they don't list the actual amount since it's proprietary. Their regular CAM 2 synavex synthetic has the typical zinc levels of 800's ppm (862) as seen in nearly all brands of performance synthetic motor oils. And RPMWS6 has already mentioned that high zinc is not good for your Cats. If this is the first time you've tried the Cam 2 BB I'd get it out of there.

https://540ratblog.wordpress.com/201...-test-ranking/

RPM WS6

iTrader: (3)

Still hard to really tell anything based on the videos. Either way, if the noise is new and wasn't there at all before, then it's not likely to be piston slap.

I use Valvoline VR1 in my old flat tappet SBC, in addition to the cam being a flat tappet it also has a more aggressive profile than stock which makes extra protection even more important. Zinc level of this oil is 1300ppm, this does not concern me at all and I've been using it for years without any problems. I wouldn't worry about high [relative to GF-3/4 or up rating] ZDDP content hurting anything other than cats, which is obviously a non-issue for those of us with pre-'75 cars as well as everyone here with an ORY, etc. I would be more worried about some of the *low* ZDDP content oils being harmful especially in flat tappet applications. Sure, not every high ZDDP oil rates well, nor does every low ZDDP oil rate poorly for protection, but I'd rather err on the side of more (to a point.) The bigger concern with some of these racing oils is the low detergent level, which is why I mentioned earlier that anyone using a specialty oil should educate themselves on the manufacturer recommended change interval for said oil and verify whether it's considered a very low detergent oil or not. Oils such as this will require much more frequent changing than what most are used to with typical synthetic street oils.

NC01TA

The info is basically endless on the zinc additives. All I can advise on is from personal experience. I've used the Eastwood zinc additive for my flat tappet cam engines for quite a few years. Since I don't drive those cars too hard maybe it's a waste of money but I haven't had any issues either. For $8 extra per oil change I guess it just buys peace of mind. I've used it in Chevy and now AMC engines. My car collector neighbor (has 12 cars) swears by the Eastwood additive and turned me on to it a long time ago, but again, he doesn't drive his cars hard either. Wasteful? I don't know.

z-maro

iTrader: (18)

Oil pressure took a few seconds to come up after the oil change, but I haven't noticed anything abnormal with the pressure since then.

Oil looks clean, how would gas get into the oil?

Yeah I figured it would be difficult to tell from any video.

Thanks for all the info on the oils, I will contact the manufacturer and see what they say about it.

Is there a way I could try to determine if it was something like lifters in the top end, or bearings/rod nock in the lower end?

z-maro

iTrader: (18)

Cam2 has info on their website for their oils, I tried to attach the document but it can also be found here: http://www.cam2racing.com/products.htm

It say the oil has 2,100 PPM Zinc, is that too high for a stock internal LS1?

RevGTO

iTrader: (12)

It's kinda hard to tell from the vids (because your exhaust is so loud), but rod knock will increase proportionately with rpms and tend to get louder as well. Lifter noise will also increase with rpms but sometimes will get louder and more pronounced when one backs off the throttle.

I don't think the level of zinc in your oil is the issue with what you're hearing.

Firebrian

Thanks for that link. That's a lot of Zinc, Phosphorus, and Sulfur in a stock LS-1....that's approx 6000 ppm total in detergents/additives + 4,000 ppm Sulfur. Total ppms in regular oils for our cars is 3,000-4,000 PPM. The link I provided above from a testing source indicates that even lower levels on Zinc caused premature engine failures in the track cars tested. Zinc added to other standard oils caused test failures in the lab. I have no way of scrutinizing that guy's data. But since he currently tests the oil I do use in my LS-1 rather high, I'll stick with it at $4.75/qt. None of the high Zinc oils they tested came out very good. Unless you've been frequently dragging/auto-crossing your car with this high Zinc oil, .... I don't think it caused this recent engine knocking.

On one hand, Sulfur is a by-product of combustion. It readily combines with moisture and other chemicals to produce acids and acid gases. Your car's cat takes that out. Sulfur is also mentioned as a means to protect metal surfaces from corrosion and provide lubricity to oils. So I'm at a loss on exactly the overall effect is. Some articles state that sulfur, zinc, and other chemical reductions in our oils and fuels over the past decade has increased overall engine wear and corrosion.

The only reason I mentioned fuel in the oil is because that was the failure mode in my 1979 Caddy where a fuel pump failure can lead to that (lousy design). That can't happen in our LS-1's. But I do know what failed engine bearing "knock" sounds like after driving that car for a few months.

http://pqiamerica.com/March2013PCMO/...sallfinal.html....typical synthetic motor oils

-

RPM WS6

iTrader: (3)

2100ppm is pretty high, much higher than is actually needed for an engine that's already broken in, especially with a roller cam, but whether or not it's "harmful" is another matter. High (meaning 1200-1500ppm or so) ZDDP levels in oil have only been linked (agreeably) to emissions system damage, not engine damage. In fact, the reduction in ZDDP levels in normal "off the shelf" oils (starting in 1995 and to a greater degree in 2005) seemed to cause a rash in flat tappet cam failures among users who had never seen issues with those oils prior to the GF-3/4 ratings. Again, I don't agree with the concept than 1200-1500ppm zinc levels are specifically harmful to anything other than cats.

Having said that, it appears this Cam 2 product linked above is a break-in oil, I'm not sure it would be ideal for regular use. Furthermore, this statement caught my eye: "Additionally, maximum compression is provided along with maximum horsepower being generated." Often times, the oils that claim "max horsepower" have drastically reduced detergent levels. I would ask them what the recommended change interval is; for the old Valvoline NSL oils, 500 mile change intervals were recommended due to very low detergent levels.

RockinWs6

That's lifter noise trust me, try what I told you before you damage the internals. O -ring is probably toast, will cause all kinds of freakiness. Add 3 ozs of the transX and 1/2 qt of the Lucas SYNTHETIC oil stabilizer, be sure its the SYNTHETIC not the thick as snot regular Lucas. How much oil pressure do you have? If its really something gone in the engine oil additives will not help, you got nothing to lose. DO IT!

z-maro

iTrader: (18)

Thanks, based on your description I would say it if definitely lifter noise.

Thanks, thats a nice chart.

On the last page of the document I attached they also have their break in oil, it is listed at 3,400 PPM zinc. They call the stuff I have "racing oil." I am waiting to hear back from them on the change intervals.

What kind of lifter noise would it be, as in how would I know if it was a collapsed lifter or if the lifter is toast? What is the method you mentioned supposed to cure? I have also heard of people recommending Marvel Mystery Oil, I assume the idea there is similar.

I stopped by the auto parts store today, that lucas stabilizer is spendy but better than lifters! What damage could be done if the noise doesn't go away with the method you mentioned? I assume worse case would be to run it till the lifter falls apart and risk ruining the whole lower end?

Thanks for all the help guys, if the heads have to come off they will be making a pit stop by AI

z-maro

iTrader: (18)

Well I grabbed another video tonight with the belts back on. Now it sounds different again, less of a ticking/knocking sound, I'm not sure how to even describe it.

Oil pressure was right at 50-55 PSI, and the noise seems to kind of clear up from ~1500-2500 RPM but its hard to tell much above that.

ULTIMATEORANGESS

iTrader: (4)

it seems quieter which is a good sign.

RockinWs6

Look I'm not posting up again....do what I told you OR spin your wheels fooling around guessing. NO ONE can tell you what's going on without a little diagnoses. I"VE HEARD YOUR ENGINE NOISE A FEW TIMES IN LS engines and EVERY TIME it was O_RING issues letting air into the oil stream causing the lifters to make this knocking clacking noise. I"M DONE Good LUCK.

z-maro

iTrader: (18)

Yeah that's something I guess.

I appreciate the input and will be giving it a try. I was just trying to better understand the reasoning before draining some oil and putting other chemicals in the crank case. What made you go with 3oz and 1/2 qt lucas synthetic stabilizer vs. say Marvel Mystery Oil (you experimented with additives and found this to work, someone else recommended it...)? It seems that it would just be a bandaid as countless other LS's aren't adding these when they change their oil.
Looking back at your posts you first recommend adding the transX & Lucas, or to just wait till the air bleeds out. It is not obvious to me how adding these would do anything for air bleeding out of the lifters, and I also wonder why I didn't get air in the lifters the last time I changed oil in this car, when I put the LT's on and had the oil drained and filter off for over a week, or when I have changed oil in other LS1's.
Next you thought the air had bleed off and it was something else, but to add the oil treatment for the engine to be trouble free. If the air is out of the lifters there would be no need to try and fix a problem that I don't have.
Next you went back to saying it is lifter noise and to put in the additives.
I know it is hard to tell with the crappy cell phone videos and I'm not trying to bash you at all, I was just trying to gain a better understanding for the reasoning behind your recommendations.


I was also was reporting on the oil pressure which some have questioned. I have read countless threads on collapsed lifters, spun lifters, bent pushrods, failing rockers, rod knock, spun bearings... again I was just trying to look at all the possibilities.

RPM WS6

iTrader: (3)

I wouldn't put too much faith in any internet diagnosis based on those videos, the noise doesn't even sound the same in every video - then factor in the sound quality of the video plus the unknown quality of the various speakers being used to listen.

Overall, I would recommend having someone local listen to the engine, there must be someone in your area who is familiar (either personally or professionally) with these engines. I think that's really the best advice anyone can give in a situation like this.