JamRWS6

I picked up a new regulator/window motor from autozone. I'm trying to put the new assembly back in the door but it didn't come with anything to fasten it to the door to replace the rivets. Should it have come with rivets? I bought some 3/16" rivets and they appear to be too small to hold the motor in.

I've tried bolts/nuts but due to the locations and tolerances this is about impossible. How are you guys fastening these to the door? Ideas?

Black 99 Bird

iTrader: (31)

I used allen head bolts to attach mine. The allen was easier to fit in the tight spot.

kdoublep

iTrader: (1)

WS6 Store sells them. I just got them in mail.

http://www.ws6project.com/user_stor/...ulator-rivets/

OldCobraGuy

iTrader: (2)

Go to Ace Hardware. You can find 1/4" button head bolts that will easily fit. Use lock nuts. Now your regulator will be easy to R and R the next time.

Problem with 1/4" rivets is you need to buy a gun to set them.

wssix99

iTrader: (5)

This is a great price, although you may save by going to a local dealer if you take in to account shipping. The rivets normally come from the dealer in a 5 pack and are p/n 10157547.

JamRWS6 - The rivets are special aluminum jacket/steel mandrel rivets and only come from the dealer. The composite material on your car requires the special rivets, which won't tear through the material like a normal steel rivet will.

JamRWS6

Thanks guys. Attaching those 4 is a huge PITA without the rivets!

Ended up w/ 4 3/4 inch machine bolts I cut down to be about a 1/2 inch. Used loctite on those as well to make sure the nuts didn't come loose and used some nice big washers to make sure it didn't damage or pull through the SMC. It's operating very smooth and nice; made sure to lube all of the moving mechanisms.

Hopefully this will be useful to others searching; and good to know for when the passenger side goes out!

Thanks All!

rabbit320

iTrader: (11)

nuts and bolts from home store, or just metal screws, that way when you do it again next year it takes 15 min...

kdoublep

iTrader: (1)

Appreciate the follow-up. I have the special rivets and a gun. Won't get to it for a few weeks. Power steering and tie rods right now !Jeez! I'll let you know how the rivet job went. I'm thinking using washers in some way in conjunction with the rivets cuz there is no damage to my door. The old rivet heads just popped off.

wssix99

iTrader: (5)

Bad idea. This WILL end up destroying the door. The same thing will happen as here: https://ls1tech.com/forums/general-m...-included.html

If you get the special rivets and a large size riveter, you will be fine. The issue isn't the rivets pulling through the door. Its the force they impart on the fiberglass parallel to the door surface that does the damage.

If you went ahead and proactively made a plate and glued it to the door, as in the post above, you could theoretically keep the bolts or whatever you want in there. With a glued plate, the stress is carried by the plate and distributed more widely over the fiberglass surface.

joecar

Are the correct rivets made of steel or aluminum/zinc...?

[ can someone check with a magnet, on the rivet body, not on the pullout mandrel ]

Edit: post #5 answers my question, thanks.

OldCobraGuy

iTrader: (2)

So you are saying the aluminum rivet is softer than the 'glass? That just doesn't make sense to me. It seems to me that as long as you have a rivet, bolt, etc that is not loose in the hole, and stays tight, you won't have a problem. It's not the bolt causing the problem, it's getting the correct size and keeping it tight. I would use a shouldered bolt if it were me. I'm trying to get my arms around this aluminum rivet being better than a bolt. I just don't see it.

wssix99

iTrader: (5)

The difference is on a microscopic level.

The inside of the fiberglass hole is rough, bumpy, relatively weak, and relatively "soft." Steel hardware is relatively smooth, relatively strong, and hard. A piece of steel hardware in that hole will concentrate all of the forces on the "bumps" in the glass and will overstress it.

The steel mandrel on the proper rivet "bends" the aluminum jacket as it is applied and fills all of the voids between the bumps, giving you even contact between the glass and aluminum. This spreads the force of the hardware over a wider surface area of fiberglass and lessens the force that any one point of the fiberglass sees.

Think of it this way - put a pile of cracker pieces on the counter and press down on them with a plate. The force is concentrated on the ridges of the crackers and they are pulverized. (Soft crackers - hard plate - just like steel on fiberglass.) Next, do the same thing, with the same amount of force, with a silicone pot holder. The crackers won't crush nearly as bad because the silicone deforms and spreads the force out on the cracker pieces. (Soft crackers - soft plate - just like aluminum on fiberglass.)

O2Form

The real problem using bolts is the the fiberglass is damaged by the force needed to tighten the bolt. Rivets don't smash the fiberglass around the surrounding area ending with the fiberglass failing. You can use bolts BUTT DO NOT over tighten them. I use bolts and silcone, the silcone sealant holds the nut and bolts from coming loose without over tightening the bolt into the fiberglass. ONLY lighty tighten the bolts and be sure to use plenty of silcone sealant. I've done this many times without and trouble.

wssix99

iTrader: (5)

True, overtightening bolts would crush the glass and for sure would cause problems. The pop rivets protect against this too.

Bolts are still not acceptable for the points mentioned above. If they were OK, GM would have used them instead of these exotic rivets and would just have properly torqued them.

OldCobraGuy

iTrader: (2)

Actually, that is not correct. These are not exotic rivets by any means other than size. I have boxes of aluminum rivets with steel mandrels, aluminum mandrels, and all different lengths. They vary in clamping force required to set them. The reason the use rivets is cost and time. Believe me...that's it. I pay a few pennies each for them...imagine how little GM pays for them when they buy millions. Bolts and nuts not only cost more, but they take longer to install on the assembly line.

I can see you have thought out your reasoning for them using rivets, I just don't agree with it. No disrespect intended. You would have a very tough time convincing me that rivet conforms to the hole like described. Especially when the mandrel puts pressure BEHIND the hole and the bulb of the mandrel never sees the inside of the rivet in the hole. It breaks and the bulb end stays in the back or falls out the back.

I see no issue using a shouldered bolt with a nylon lock nut properly torqued. I would also use a good, high quality washer against the panel. I would rather do this than use the rivets...and i have the rivets!!

O2Form

I use standard bolts with washers and silicone sealant, never had any trouble with any I did. Good silicone sealant locks the nut to the bolt and it also supports the bolt against the fiberglass. I've taken the door panel off years later and the bolts are solid yet.

Ls2SilverBullet

Mine just have a bolt and nut with a locker to prevent it from backing out, works fine. Not sure how you are having issues if the bolt fits snug in the hole and is the right length

wssix99

iTrader: (5)

I call them "exotic" because I have not been able to find a similar rivet available commercially, although there are lots of aluminum rivet steel mandrel options out there. These rivets are also a lot different than other ones I've used. The mandrel stays captive and if its seated properly, its almost impossible to knock out when seated tightly.

The use of rivets vs. bolts is basic stuff taught in Engineering Science and Materials classes. I'm not sure if the science has changed in the last... (its been a couple years since I took the class) but rivets are generally the way to go for attaching soft materials to hard materials as they spread the sheer forces more evenly than a threaded bolt does.

Great discussion here. To go further, it would probably take a deeper exploration of materials and math that I didn't even like doing when I could actually remember how to do it. Will bolts work - sure. Will they cause damage if properly done - probably not. One thing that we do know is that there are numerous posts on this site where people have had ripped doors. I have yet to see a single one where the OEM rivets were used and would be interested to know of any such cases. (Most that I have seen were steel/steel rivets.)

There are lots of mods out there but most don't risk something as expensive to replace as a door. Not that I've said all of this... I will probably personally fall victim to Murphy's Law when I get home and find something like my door hinges ripping through the fiberglass that I've been trying to preserve with my regulator rivets.

OldCobraGuy

iTrader: (2)

Good stuff and hard to argue against. But knowing me, I will anyway!

joecar

That's how we learn, by questioning.