RacingTiger03

iTrader: (3)

My formula sat for a few days (not unusual for this car) and when I went to start it up today it began just like normal, I could hear the roar of the engine about to fire off when all of a sudden it stopped and I just heard a grinding, VERY similiar to what you would hear if you tried to start the car with the engine running. That is ALL it will do since, no matter what I do a grind is all I can get. Unfortunately for me, the car is 20 miles away at the office, and diagnostic time is a bit limited with it there.

More details - The start does seem to engage fine, to the point that when I hit the key the engine is clearly kicking up some. I have NOT yet been able to get under the car while it was being started to see what's going on below... Hoping for something simple my gut says I won't be so lucky.

RacingTiger03

iTrader: (3)

So does anyone think this might NOT be a seized engine? =/
125K miles EXACTLY on the clock, and it used about 1-1.5 qts between changes but it's always had the piston slap issue so I wouldn't be surprised, just not what I was hoping for..

BUT - picked up a new 2014 Mazda 6 in the mean time

redbird555

iTrader: (14)

thats hard to say. if it turns the engine over at all then im willing to bet that its not locked up. what I think may be happening is that the starter bendix isnt catching the flywheel all the way and it skipping teeth on it causing the grinding. remove the starter and rotate the flywheel and check all the teeth. if they look good then check to the starter to make sure the bendix is engaging

madmike9396

iTrader: (29)

I agree with above statement. check your starter. I had one break once and when the gear on the starter would kick out to make contact with the flywheel it would make a hell of a grinding noise because they weren't engaging with each other fully

RacingTiger03

iTrader: (3)

Yeah, I plan on checking the starter first thing. Just bummed out about it a bit right now and avoiding it.

To clarify - engine will NOT spin over at all now, but there is clear movement of the engine itself from old tired motor mounts when the starter engages. Really need to get under the car and get a better idea of what's happening when the key is kicked on. Reason I'm a bit afraid to look into it further is that my dad's engine in his IROC-Z went out in the same fashion before he built his last motor for the car.

LS6427

iTrader: (2)

Hope you didn't break a starter bolt mount.....

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RacingTiger03

iTrader: (3)

I think I would be happier about that since there is a way to repair that with the starter bridge ($$$$) Cheaper than a new engine..

1_MEANZ28

iTrader: (4)

Its your starter ,it happend to me it sounded like a old carb chevy .till one day it just didint start,my starter was loose .then when it didit want to turn on it broke off..only the starter was damaged when it broke.stop turing it on and check it out..

LS6427

iTrader: (2)

My starter mount broke....had it welded back on. Lasted like 5 years till my engine finally failed on me. $150.00 for the welder and took maybe 15 minutes.

I saw that starter bridge fix......expensive man.

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RacingTiger03

iTrader: (3)

^^Why I'm worried it's NOT the starter. It has never given me trouble/sounded strange/strained to start at all. Everything was fine and dandy until the day I got 4 cylinders and then froze.



LS6427, I had thought about that option but have read a lot of people saying that the engine had to come out to have that tab welded back on anyway. Was that not the case for you?


I've really gotta get under this car and find out if the starter is the root cause, the 6 got me through my slump of "losing" the formula.. time to crack back down on it haha. What happened to when starters failed by just a solenoid freezing up and you could jump the bridge for a couple last starts to get to home/shop/etc anyways jeez.

LS6427

iTrader: (2)

Not true. My welder came over and got under my car.....the front tires were just up on ramps. 15 minutes and he welded it and re-tapped it. Put the starter on in another 10 minutes and started it up. Done.

First thing.......get under there with a flashlight and look at the starter mounts.....if it broke you will see it the second you look up at it. It's right there.

Page 1...post # 10......pictures of my broken mount and broken piece,
Page 3...post # 57......pictures of my welder under my car in my driveway.

https://ls1tech.com/forums/general-m...er+mount+broke

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RacingTiger03

iTrader: (3)

Thanks man, that's some serious encouragement! I would love to get her back on the road till I can afford to rebuild/replace the engine

1 FMF

iTrader: (1)

the starter does not have a bendix, it has a solenoid plunger which is an electromagnet. if the battery is weak or the solenoid is going bad then the electromagnetic doesn't push the starter pinion out and keep it there to stay engaged to the flywheel. the result is the grinding of the starter pinion against the flywheel.
possible solutions are you need a new battery or a jump,
you need a new solenoid on the starter which basically equals a new starter,
another thing is any relays or solenoids prior to the starter solenoid might need replacing- i've ran into issues on boats which use the same PMGR starter/solenoid setup and any slave solenoids that provide power to the starter solenoid can cause the starter to fail if the slave is bad and undervolts the starter. for the car's case, the relay in the fusebox is an electronic relay and i don't think they fail like solenoids do but if you end up replacing battery and the starter and still have problems then consider replacing the starter relay.

camaroz98

iTrader: (1)

agreed. id try to jump start it and give the starter a tap with the handle of a screwdriver or hammer, can get a start or two that way incase you need to move the car to work on it.

RacingTiger03

iTrader: (3)

Battery is less than 2 weeks old.. just replaced it. This electromagnet has me intrigued though. So these starters can actually just die in this fashion where they won't come out and mesh up? O_o

You guys are trying hard to brighten up my day right? I would be THRILLED if a new starter or some welding are all I need

RacingTiger03

iTrader: (3)

I'm going to get under the car today if the weather co-operates this time. I know on older cars if it was a failing starter you could cross the gap between the two tabs on the red box up top to get another start or two out of the car, is that possible or is tapping on the starter the only way to try to get anything else out of these?

The car is a manual wish I could just shove it up the hill its parked on (damn curbs) enough to get a rolling start LOL

LS6427

iTrader: (2)

I don't see why the engine would have seized up. Only thing that can really cause that on cold start-up is if you had heavy rain for those days when it sat, you then had one of the few cars where the rain gets into the engine compartment and onto the top of the intake, then you had leaky intake gaskets which would have meant you would have had vacuum leaks, then that water leaked into a cylinder and filled it with water......then you hydrolocked the engine.
You said it was turning over though for a few seconds........if it hydrolocked it wouldn't turn over for more than the blink of an eye.......it would break a rod in about half a second and stop. And you would probably hear a "clunk" when it stopped.

I'd just look up at the starter....see if that mount is broke......
Possibly the starter is just failing and is weak......so if the mount is not broke have someone hit the key while you are looking at the starter and see if the bendix flys out and is just not reaching the flywheel all the way. If so, weak starter.

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RacingTiger03

iTrader: (3)

My luck it is LOL. We'll see soon enough, but it was raining very heavily the first day I left the car. Rode home with my wife because of the rain actually, still no wipers on the car which I don't normally mind but I didn't have it prepped for that storm. I've also had some odd speedo and fuel gauge fluctuations for some time which could've been attributed to vacuum leaks.

As for the time, I heard four cylinders burble. So not even a second. *bonus points* no loud crack or clack of metal breaking, just the god awful grinding.

IF it's a weak starter though, is there a trick to get that one last start out of it? I can't even replace a starter right now (much less get a tow), but I would like the car to be back home

1 FMF

iTrader: (1)

the starter is a PG260 and there are various models of it. Really the only thing that changes on it is the nose cone which bolts up to the block on the engine. The starter in my 2002 LS1 is the same starter in my boat with GM 3.0L engine and my 2006 truck with 8.1L. minus the nose cone bolt pattern. back when i had boat starter problems i found PG260M, PG260L, PG260F and so on for models. biggest difference were the later model starters had a longer body (electric motor) and were rated to 1.7kw of power versus 1.4kw or less for the older models. But the inside of the starter is all the same and quite bulletproof. Only thing i found was the planetary gears in the starter which is the gear reduction part lacked grease and was dried up, I doubt that would ever seize and make the starter fail but could reduce starting performance/speed. very easy to clean out and grease. Other than burning out the windings on the armature or stator within the starter which is unlikely, only thing that can fail on the starter are the carbon brushes at the rear which is also unlikely- if anything the springs that push them to the armature might rust up and stick preventing the brushes from contacting the armature. it's that stupid made-in-china electromagnet solenoid that fails and prevents the starter from working, because the plunger is an electromagnet and has 2 purposes- push the pinion out to engage the flywheel and also make the electrical contact between the 2 large studs on the solenoid which feeds power to the starter. like i said, i nuked 2 new starters on my boat before finding out a slave solenoid to the starter solenoid was bad, and even replacing the slave solenoid didn't fix the problem which started happening on the 2nd starter. I had to get a 3rd new starter and use it with the new slave and then everything had worked fine since. it seemed once the starter solenoid electromagnet got hurt it was done and you needed a new one.


the solenoid which is replaceable if you can find a place to buy just the solenoid from. They are all the same size.




exploded diagram of starter:
http://www.perfprotech.com/mercruise...sembly/1937/20

RacingTiger03

iTrader: (3)

http://www.maniacelectricmotors.com/...FcJw4AodyU4AFA

If it turns out that just the solenoid is not functioning properly does it look like this will do the job? $25 beats the pants off of $100.