VMAX Velocity Ring. Using 90-92mm TB on FAST 102 Intake
03-11-2011, 06:37 PM
#1
VMAX Velocity Ring. Using 90-92mm TB on FAST 102 Intake I was considering the FAST 102 intake manifold, and I already have a PTM 92MM TB. So I know that the smaller TB's do bolt up to the FAST 102 manifolds, but that gap can't be good for drivabilty. So I did a little searching and found out people are having drivability issues, and there is a fix for this. I find it weird that they are discussed on other forums, but not this one. Its called a Velocity Ring, by VMAX. Price doesn't seem too bad. Here is a link to it from another forum. What do you guys think?
http://forums.corvetteforum.com/c6-z...le-inside.html
http://forums.corvetteforum.com/c6-z...le-inside.html
03-11-2011, 10:04 PM
#2
I talked to Mike Norris about this a few weeks ago and he was out. He said what they found was the step behind the 92mm T/B into the 102 intake was causing turbulence that was causing problems with light throttle and off idle transition. At the time Mike shied me away from using a 102 T/B and going with a 92mm instead. He gave several examples of bigger cubic end cars, 400, 440+ that had lots of problems. He said they put a 92mm on it with that ring and I believe a 85mm MAF and picked up more power and drivablity(sp) with the smaller setup.
I talked to Geoff at EPS and he said pretty much the same thing. I posted a thread in the tuning section asking about tuning the 102 T/B's but no one responded.
I talked to speedtweekers this afternoon and he said there were problems with the first 102 T/B's. The IAC passages were too big or too small. He also said the throttle blades were inconsistent but those problems have been taken care of. He(and I can't remember his name) said they do at least one intake swap a week.
There seems to be a lot of smoke and mirrors about these intakes. It seems like unless you ask very direct questions about the problems they have no one talks about them especially sponsors which I can understand because that would hurt their business.
If I end up with a 102 I think am going to us that VMAX ring, a 92mm plate and a N/W T/B.
I talked to Geoff at EPS and he said pretty much the same thing. I posted a thread in the tuning section asking about tuning the 102 T/B's but no one responded.
I talked to speedtweekers this afternoon and he said there were problems with the first 102 T/B's. The IAC passages were too big or too small. He also said the throttle blades were inconsistent but those problems have been taken care of. He(and I can't remember his name) said they do at least one intake swap a week.
There seems to be a lot of smoke and mirrors about these intakes. It seems like unless you ask very direct questions about the problems they have no one talks about them especially sponsors which I can understand because that would hurt their business.
If I end up with a 102 I think am going to us that VMAX ring, a 92mm plate and a N/W T/B.
03-12-2011, 01:02 PM
#3
Ive seen that thread and wondered about this too, although I run a GM LS2 90mm DBW throttle body on my FAST 102mm and dont notice anything.
Here is what I always came back to, when you install that ring, there is the same edge. Its now just farther back. You would have to make it with a bellmouth or trumpet and have the tapered part inside the manifold to get rid of that edge.
And if you have a 92mm TB, your going to have a wall the air hits becuase you can see that this was made to the LS2 DBW TB which is smaller than 92mm
Here is what I always came back to, when you install that ring, there is the same edge. Its now just farther back. You would have to make it with a bellmouth or trumpet and have the tapered part inside the manifold to get rid of that edge.
And if you have a 92mm TB, your going to have a wall the air hits becuase you can see that this was made to the LS2 DBW TB which is smaller than 92mm
03-14-2011, 08:12 PM
#5
Here is what I always came back to, when you install that ring, there is the same edge. Its now just farther back. You would have to make it with a bellmouth or trumpet and have the tapered part inside the manifold to get rid of that edge.
92mm
92mm
So without the ring you have one edge right after the TB, and another edge that drops the air right into the plenum. With the ring, its a smooth transition until it reaches the edge of the plenum.
Its basically getting rid of that one extra edge.
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09-28-2011, 09:42 AM
#12
My questions were legitimate, not sarcastic. But I did look them up...this is just the first page of google shopping results without even sorting it to cheapest.
Velocity Ring: $50
Godspeed 102mm: $190-210
Nick Williams 102mm: $338 from a sponsor here
Used 92mm tb should easily sell for $200+ depending on brand (a junk fast 90mm might sell for $150). So it's a little more (unless you find a deal on a used tb) but you still have a TB to grow into. The tuning issue I could see.
Velocity Ring: $50
Godspeed 102mm: $190-210
Nick Williams 102mm: $338 from a sponsor here
Used 92mm tb should easily sell for $200+ depending on brand (a junk fast 90mm might sell for $150). So it's a little more (unless you find a deal on a used tb) but you still have a TB to grow into. The tuning issue I could see.
09-28-2011, 10:17 AM
#13
My questions were legitimate, not sarcastic. But I did look them up...this is just the first page of google shopping results without even sorting it to cheapest.
Velocity Ring: $50
Godspeed 102mm: $190-210
Nick Williams 102mm: $338 from a sponsor here
Used 92mm tb should easily sell for $200+ depending on brand (a junk fast 90mm might sell for $150). So it's a little more (unless you find a deal on a used tb) but you still have a TB to grow into. The tuning issue I could see.
Velocity Ring: $50
Godspeed 102mm: $190-210
Nick Williams 102mm: $338 from a sponsor here
Used 92mm tb should easily sell for $200+ depending on brand (a junk fast 90mm might sell for $150). So it's a little more (unless you find a deal on a used tb) but you still have a TB to grow into. The tuning issue I could see.
btw, DBW TB are usually more $$$$
09-28-2011, 06:46 PM
#14
This is a very interesting article and very nice to know this info because I have been saving up for a FAST 102 intake and give it a try and know now I can keep my Nick Williams 90mm throttle body and be fine with the V-MAX Motorsports velocity ring, NICE.
10-01-2011, 10:16 AM
#17
Hey All,
I had someone mention about this post so i figure I will put my 2 cents in on it for ya. Just remember that I am not an airflow expert by any means and I work with folks I trust in this area.
First things first, there are not many cars out there that can actually use a 102mm TB. That is a whole lot of airflow and usually velocity is sacrificed at idle, tip in and low speeds if the TB is oversized for the application.
The V-ring was designed to be used with the stock style LS2/LS3/LS7 TB's and aftermarket 90mm TB's. No testing was done on the 92mm units thought it may work out okay even with the small step. It also works well with the VMax CNC model TB's. We have, however, seen issues with other hand ported TB's in that the exit areas of these units can vary and be opened up too much causing turbulance and more issues then with no V-ring. So if you already have a hand ported 90mm TB on your 102 intake, it may not do what it was intended to do.
When it comes to the design, I too thought that a bell mouth setup would be the way to go, but testing showed worse results then with no ring at all.
The picture of the TB itself being opened up is an interesting idea also and I would be curious if there was any flow testing in relation to CFM and/or velocity at different throttle positions to see what it did compared to a stock TB on a stock 102 intake. Most likely the immediate opening up just behind the blade causes some crazy turbulance upon initial tip in I would think. Again, not an airflow guy, just a guess.
With the V-ring, at first you would think that it is just the same lip at the back, just moved reward. But think of it as a merge collector in a header collector. I will not get into specifics of sizes as that is VMax's area.
What I can tell you is that is does work. I had sent out a few when they were first introduced to guys that said "I do not need one as my 90/102 setup runs just fine". A week later they let us know that is did make a good change in the idle and tip in characteristics of the vehicle and that was the whole reason for this piece and the R&D we went through. We tried 9-10 different sizes and lengths to get where we are at today.
We have also seen some modest gains in the midrange with these pieces on about 60-70% of the vehicles. Not much if any at all at peak.
Hope this info helps and have a great weekend all.
Mike Norris
I had someone mention about this post so i figure I will put my 2 cents in on it for ya. Just remember that I am not an airflow expert by any means and I work with folks I trust in this area.
First things first, there are not many cars out there that can actually use a 102mm TB. That is a whole lot of airflow and usually velocity is sacrificed at idle, tip in and low speeds if the TB is oversized for the application.
The V-ring was designed to be used with the stock style LS2/LS3/LS7 TB's and aftermarket 90mm TB's. No testing was done on the 92mm units thought it may work out okay even with the small step. It also works well with the VMax CNC model TB's. We have, however, seen issues with other hand ported TB's in that the exit areas of these units can vary and be opened up too much causing turbulance and more issues then with no V-ring. So if you already have a hand ported 90mm TB on your 102 intake, it may not do what it was intended to do.
When it comes to the design, I too thought that a bell mouth setup would be the way to go, but testing showed worse results then with no ring at all.
The picture of the TB itself being opened up is an interesting idea also and I would be curious if there was any flow testing in relation to CFM and/or velocity at different throttle positions to see what it did compared to a stock TB on a stock 102 intake. Most likely the immediate opening up just behind the blade causes some crazy turbulance upon initial tip in I would think. Again, not an airflow guy, just a guess.
With the V-ring, at first you would think that it is just the same lip at the back, just moved reward. But think of it as a merge collector in a header collector. I will not get into specifics of sizes as that is VMax's area.
What I can tell you is that is does work. I had sent out a few when they were first introduced to guys that said "I do not need one as my 90/102 setup runs just fine". A week later they let us know that is did make a good change in the idle and tip in characteristics of the vehicle and that was the whole reason for this piece and the R&D we went through. We tried 9-10 different sizes and lengths to get where we are at today.
We have also seen some modest gains in the midrange with these pieces on about 60-70% of the vehicles. Not much if any at all at peak.
Hope this info helps and have a great weekend all.
Mike Norris
10-04-2011, 06:32 AM
#19
Thanks for the info.
Mike Norris
10-05-2011, 05:54 PM
#20
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So, what is the best setup if you have to start from scratch?? I have the new 102 intake, CNC'd 205 AFR's, bigger cam (230/234 .614 with a 114lca). I need to buy a new TB and MAF, what is the best way to go?? Any thoughts Mike?? Just point me in the right direction and I will order ASAP.. Thanks in advance