Hydraulic to Solid - considering the change - details within
10-13-2008, 08:26 AM
#1
Hydraulic to Solid - considering the change - details within Hey guys,
I recently picked up a daily driver car, so im considering going solid roller with my camaro and was curious what kind of power i could pick up.
Current setup -
5.3 heads (flowed 328@.600)
Vic Jr port matched to heads
236/248 .617/.617 114lsa cam
intake elbow
90mm TB.
Bottom end - 418ci
6.0 Iron block
Eagle 4.1 crank
Eagle Rods
Ross Pistons
ARP studs on heads and mains
Oil pan was milled out, and pickup tube extended to back of pan, baffle with frontwards hinging piano hinge was installed in front of pickup tube.
The motor was built by Bischof Engine Service just outside of Cincinnati Ohio. They had built several 408's pervious to my build, that dyno'd in the 630 range (at flywheel) with almost identical setups. They are estimating my motor to make 630-650. After getting it tuned yesterday (road tuned), my tuner says it feels like its making every bit of that, if not more)
I had originally considering going solid roller on this initial built, but at the time wanted the car to be daily drivable and live for tens of thousands of street miles with no worries. At this point the car is becomming a weekend only car.
Im looking to do a combo somthing to the effect of:
ET 245 heads w/Vic SR intake - 100mm TB.
.700+ lift solid roller cam
Just curious what kind of cost, and what kind of gains i could expect.
I also plan on spraying ~250-300 on my current combo, and would have similar goals of the solid roller setup.
I recently picked up a daily driver car, so im considering going solid roller with my camaro and was curious what kind of power i could pick up.
Current setup -
5.3 heads (flowed 328@.600)
Vic Jr port matched to heads
236/248 .617/.617 114lsa cam
intake elbow
90mm TB.
Bottom end - 418ci
6.0 Iron block
Eagle 4.1 crank
Eagle Rods
Ross Pistons
ARP studs on heads and mains
Oil pan was milled out, and pickup tube extended to back of pan, baffle with frontwards hinging piano hinge was installed in front of pickup tube.
The motor was built by Bischof Engine Service just outside of Cincinnati Ohio. They had built several 408's pervious to my build, that dyno'd in the 630 range (at flywheel) with almost identical setups. They are estimating my motor to make 630-650. After getting it tuned yesterday (road tuned), my tuner says it feels like its making every bit of that, if not more)
I had originally considering going solid roller on this initial built, but at the time wanted the car to be daily drivable and live for tens of thousands of street miles with no worries. At this point the car is becomming a weekend only car.
Im looking to do a combo somthing to the effect of:
ET 245 heads w/Vic SR intake - 100mm TB.
.700+ lift solid roller cam
Just curious what kind of cost, and what kind of gains i could expect.
I also plan on spraying ~250-300 on my current combo, and would have similar goals of the solid roller setup.
10-14-2008, 09:05 PM
#5
The original flow sheet that Brian gave me showed 336 or 338 (dont know where i put it). They flowed 328 on a second bench at the place that built my 418.
10-14-2008, 09:08 PM
#6
Eh, IMO it probably wouldn't be worth it. There are plenty of single digit et cars out there running hydraulic rollers to really justify the switch. But if you're dead set, Crower makes a nice lifter. I am pretty sure Jesel makes one that works with the OEM trays, that way you won't have to clearance the block or the lifter tie bars.
The switch from those 5.3L heads to some nice TFS heads and the nitrous are gonna get you the REAL gain in performance. I would suggest focusing on that. Springs to handle a .700" lift solid roller valvetrain is probably gonna be a pain in the ***, anyways. High spring rates usually result in a more brittle spring.
BTW, I met a guy with a solid roller 408 with "stage 3" 5.3L heads and he dyno'd under 440hp to the tires. I would run a baseline to see where you are at right now, and then another after the modifications.
The switch from those 5.3L heads to some nice TFS heads and the nitrous are gonna get you the REAL gain in performance. I would suggest focusing on that. Springs to handle a .700" lift solid roller valvetrain is probably gonna be a pain in the ***, anyways. High spring rates usually result in a more brittle spring.
BTW, I met a guy with a solid roller 408 with "stage 3" 5.3L heads and he dyno'd under 440hp to the tires. I would run a baseline to see where you are at right now, and then another after the modifications.
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10-15-2008, 05:41 AM
#13
If you want to spin the engine above 7000rpm than a solid roller setup is the way to go. You better shoot for about 12.5:1 or + on the compression though. Throw a big nasty solid roller in there with lots of compression and a set of heads that flows 350+cfm you should be able to make 700 fwhp pretty easy.
Edit: I don't know much about the victor jr intakes for the LSx motors but for the Gen I SBCs they are not the greatest flowing setup for a big cube high flowing solid roller setup. You might want to look into a super victor or if Brodix makes an intake for LSx motors they would be worth looking into.
Edit: I don't know much about the victor jr intakes for the LSx motors but for the Gen I SBCs they are not the greatest flowing setup for a big cube high flowing solid roller setup. You might want to look into a super victor or if Brodix makes an intake for LSx motors they would be worth looking into.
Last edited by Nitroused383; 10-15-2008 at 05:54 AM.
10-15-2008, 07:05 AM
#14
I have to say, im definitely getting a different answer than i assumed.
I guess i was under the impression that a big (~400cfm) head, and a 700+ lift cam, along with an appropriate intake and the ability to gain ~1000rpm's on the big end, would result in more like ~100+ more hp than my current setup.
Perhaps i will just look at going with an "extreme" hydraulic combo.
I guess i was under the impression that a big (~400cfm) head, and a 700+ lift cam, along with an appropriate intake and the ability to gain ~1000rpm's on the big end, would result in more like ~100+ more hp than my current setup.
Perhaps i will just look at going with an "extreme" hydraulic combo.
10-15-2008, 07:23 PM
#15
I have to say, im definitely getting a different answer than i assumed.
I guess i was under the impression that a big (~400cfm) head, and a 700+ lift cam, along with an appropriate intake and the ability to gain ~1000rpm's on the big end, would result in more like ~100+ more hp than my current setup.
Perhaps i will just look at going with an "extreme" hydraulic combo.
I guess i was under the impression that a big (~400cfm) head, and a 700+ lift cam, along with an appropriate intake and the ability to gain ~1000rpm's on the big end, would result in more like ~100+ more hp than my current setup.
Perhaps i will just look at going with an "extreme" hydraulic combo.
All of the changes you plan to make might net another 100hp, but its likely gonna be a headache to maintain that setup. Getting a good manifold under the hood, checking springs, checking lash...who cares. Spray the dogshit out of and be done!
Just look in the Texas section and see how many of the 25 fastest are running a hydraulic lifter. Its cool and all, but IMHO its not worth it until its a all out drag car.
10-15-2008, 07:34 PM
#16
Send "Robin L" a message asking about "extreme" hydraulic rollers. He used to turn a Ford smallblock over 8000 with a Ford Racing hydraulic roller lifter.
All of the changes you plan to make might net another 100hp, but its likely gonna be a headache to maintain that setup. Getting a good manifold under the hood, checking springs, checking lash...who cares. Spray the dogshit out of and be done!
Just look in the Texas section and see how many of the 25 fastest are running a hydraulic lifter. Its cool and all, but IMHO its not worth it until its a all out drag car.
All of the changes you plan to make might net another 100hp, but its likely gonna be a headache to maintain that setup. Getting a good manifold under the hood, checking springs, checking lash...who cares. Spray the dogshit out of and be done!
Just look in the Texas section and see how many of the 25 fastest are running a hydraulic lifter. Its cool and all, but IMHO its not worth it until its a all out drag car.
Although the car no longer has to be a daily driver, i would hate to give up all that for no more power than what it will yield.
Goal for the car now is to take a lot of weight out of it and try to dip into the 8's. I just wanted to do it without having to spray it a ton. Anything over 250 or so seems to be a whole new game. I know i will make some mistakes along the way, and i dont want it to cost me a motor because i tried to spray it too hard with things not being 100% right.
10-15-2008, 08:40 PM
#17
Thats kinda the answer i was looking for.
Although the car no longer has to be a daily driver, i would hate to give up all that for no more power than what it will yield.
Goal for the car now is to take a lot of weight out of it and try to dip into the 8's. I just wanted to do it without having to spray it a ton. Anything over 250 or so seems to be a whole new game. I know i will make some mistakes along the way, and i dont want it to cost me a motor because i tried to spray it too hard with things not being 100% right.
Although the car no longer has to be a daily driver, i would hate to give up all that for no more power than what it will yield.
Goal for the car now is to take a lot of weight out of it and try to dip into the 8's. I just wanted to do it without having to spray it a ton. Anything over 250 or so seems to be a whole new game. I know i will make some mistakes along the way, and i dont want it to cost me a motor because i tried to spray it too hard with things not being 100% right.
If you do end up going to a solid roller, or should I say properly utilize a solid roller, the springs really become a big deal. No more Comp 916 BS. You are really gonna want to invest in some nice Isky Tool Room, PSI, or equivalent valvesprings. With valvesprings, the more rate (pressure per inch of lift) you get the more brittle the springs tend to be. Springs just won't last as long.
What kind of RPM are you planning on turning? Rocker choice?
10-16-2008, 08:16 AM
#18
Talk to Bischoff and see what he thinks about nitrous on your engine. A naturally aspirated motor and a nitrous motor are two different animals, especially when its over a 200 shot.
If you do end up going to a solid roller, or should I say properly utilize a solid roller, the springs really become a big deal. No more Comp 916 BS. You are really gonna want to invest in some nice Isky Tool Room, PSI, or equivalent valvesprings. With valvesprings, the more rate (pressure per inch of lift) you get the more brittle the springs tend to be. Springs just won't last as long.
What kind of RPM are you planning on turning? Rocker choice?
If you do end up going to a solid roller, or should I say properly utilize a solid roller, the springs really become a big deal. No more Comp 916 BS. You are really gonna want to invest in some nice Isky Tool Room, PSI, or equivalent valvesprings. With valvesprings, the more rate (pressure per inch of lift) you get the more brittle the springs tend to be. Springs just won't last as long.
What kind of RPM are you planning on turning? Rocker choice?
The reason that my current setup isn't solid roller, is because of all the broblems that BES told me i could run into, and at the time i told them the motor would see a lot of street miles. After hearing all that, basicly i determined hydraulic was the only way to go.
I haven't even had the current setup at the track. It was actually just finally tuned a week ago. I still have transmission problems i need to work out also. The reason im starting to revisit other ideas, is that i no longer have to use the car as a daily driver. I picked up a 98 TA to daily drive a while back. Now im going back and looking at all the things i would have done differently on my current setup.
10-16-2008, 10:43 AM
#19
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the big benefit of a solid roller sheet metal/vic jr intake setup imo, is the ability to not necessarily make a ton more hp (although they do make more), but carry it further up in the rpms significantly, which allows you to stay in a shorter gear longer, etc....kind of a 1 + 1 = 3 thing. The plastic manifolds die at like 6500+- depending.
in essence i believe the major benefit is it greatly increases your 'avg' power but maybe not 'peak'.
in essence i believe the major benefit is it greatly increases your 'avg' power but maybe not 'peak'.
10-16-2008, 07:39 PM
#20
I'm building a solid roller setup now. Jesel does make a solid lifter that drops into the stock trays. I have a set. You're going to spend a small fortune though if you start buying this stuff new.
The best thing you could do is really just have your heads cut for larger springs. Mine are cut for 1.550 diameter springs and I'll be running a comp 26089 spring with titanium retainers. The most expensive thing you'll need will be the rockers. You can find a few sets for sale on here randomly, but they are still costly. You'll be looking at something in the $800-1500 range for those.
With the added spring pressure and RPMs you'll probably want to run a 3/8ths pushrod. I would skip the 100+ mm throttle body especially since you already have the 92. Call accufab and talk to them about it. They have a formula that calculates air requirements by your specific engine and it will dictate what throttle body you need. 95% of the time a 105ish throttle body is overkill.
The problem with not doing this from scratch is designing the engine. You'll still be RPM limited by the stock oiling system and having such a large crank. I'm using an LS7 dry sump system and will be spinning mine in the 8000-8500 RPM range with a 4 inch stroke.
You can still do it and if you want to I'd say go for it. Cut the spring pockets for larger springs, get larger pushrods, adjustable rockers, solid lifters, and a solid cam. That's all you'll really need.
If you want to do it another way you can actually probably just swap the lifters and cam and be done with it. You can run a solid roller with non adjustable valvetrain parts. You'll just set the lash by shimming the rockers. You'd still have to be a little tame as I'm guessing the springs you are running are in the 1.290 range.
The best thing you could do is really just have your heads cut for larger springs. Mine are cut for 1.550 diameter springs and I'll be running a comp 26089 spring with titanium retainers. The most expensive thing you'll need will be the rockers. You can find a few sets for sale on here randomly, but they are still costly. You'll be looking at something in the $800-1500 range for those.
With the added spring pressure and RPMs you'll probably want to run a 3/8ths pushrod. I would skip the 100+ mm throttle body especially since you already have the 92. Call accufab and talk to them about it. They have a formula that calculates air requirements by your specific engine and it will dictate what throttle body you need. 95% of the time a 105ish throttle body is overkill.
The problem with not doing this from scratch is designing the engine. You'll still be RPM limited by the stock oiling system and having such a large crank. I'm using an LS7 dry sump system and will be spinning mine in the 8000-8500 RPM range with a 4 inch stroke.
You can still do it and if you want to I'd say go for it. Cut the spring pockets for larger springs, get larger pushrods, adjustable rockers, solid lifters, and a solid cam. That's all you'll really need.
If you want to do it another way you can actually probably just swap the lifters and cam and be done with it. You can run a solid roller with non adjustable valvetrain parts. You'll just set the lash by shimming the rockers. You'd still have to be a little tame as I'm guessing the springs you are running are in the 1.290 range.