Don Nguyen

iTrader: (2)

Like the title states. I am looking at possible ways to build up a LS1 engine to make 500rwhp or more, for road racing, so it has to be reliable time after time.

I am trying to figure out the most efficient/cost effective way to do this, while staying NA.

The engine will most likely be either a 1999 or a 2000 LS1 with a T56 transmission. The obvious bolt ons will be the LS6 intake, custom headers/exhaust system (Which needs to be built to put the engine in the car anyways), and tuning.

My main questions now is can I do the typical H/C/I and get the engine to put out that much power, or am I going to need a stroker kit to make it easier?

I spent the last couple of days searching on this topic, and I felt like discussing it with someone now, so give me any ideas/feedback. Suggestions like on brands/costs/etc would be great.

thanks.

-Don

jmmullin

iTrader: (2)

It can be done without a stroker kit, though that would certainly make the power goal more attainable. You'll need a NICE set of heads, AFR heads work wonders I hear, and they are one of the more expensive brands I believe. You get what you pay for. A moderate to large cam is also in order, 23X/23X+ at least.

LS6 intake? Eh, ported FAST 92mm/92mm setup is what you'll need. I've heard rumor of 500rwhp+ h/c cars, but its not cheap! I'm sure its worth it in the end if you have a cooperative budget. More knowledgeable folks will chime in shortly to help out!

dankl

iTrader: (1)

You'll probably want to go with a stroker if it's cost effective. I've seen a thread where Pat G breaksdown his recipe for 500RWHP from a stock bottom end LS1, but I can guarantee you that if everything is not working 100% together, you probably will not hit your goal. You'll probably need a cam much larger than a 23x/23x also.

If you go Stroker, you can keep the car much more "streetable" while getting you to your HP goal. Also, you'll never be able to get the stock bottom end's torque anywhere near that of the stroker set-ups.

Just my opinion. I'm sure more people will chime in.

Don Nguyen

iTrader: (2)

Thanks for the info.

Honestly. There is no real budget, things just have to be reasonable/realistic (IE not going to pay 2k for an intake, or 1.5k for a cam, etc). The way it is if it costs more money, it is just going to take longer, so it's more of a time vs money thing. If it can be done for cheaper, then it can get done sooner, and vice versa.

If it can all be done with something south of 4-5k, that would be awesome.

Dankle, the whole stroker/stroking thing is entirely new to me, so I have to do a lot of reading up on that, etc. I have no idea where to start with them, other than seeing some stroker kits on ebay for 2k. There's so many vendors to go through on the side bar, that I haven't had a chance to take a look at everything yet. Hopefully one of them chimes in.

So a stroker kit will yeild me more torque? If so, that may seem like a good thing to go with. Any recommendations on where/who to go to for a stroker kit, and what size people typically run?

thanks again guys.

-Don

Silverado_13

iTrader: (5)

Will this be driven on the street at all?

jmmullin

iTrader: (2)

I was just basing that off my 232/234 cam in an engine with PRC 5.3 heads and cats on my exhaust, making 435rwhp. If he builds the engine with underdrive pulley, maybe a lightweight flywheel (if thats feasible) and no cats on the exhaust I thought he may be able to pull it off with something like the 233/239 maybay? Or certainly one of the cam guru's could spec one out for whatever heads he chooses. But yeaa, I said at least something that big, insinuating heading toward the larger direction

Don Nguyen

iTrader: (2)

Actually good question. Yes, the car will still be driven on the streets. The car is being built for time attack, and will be competing in their Street class.

dankl

iTrader: (1)

Don, stroker's not too in depth. Pick your block, pick your kit, send block to machine shop for "prepping" (boring and honing). Have them balance your "kit" (rotating assembly) and you've got yourself a stroker...

Personally, I'm starting with a LQ9/LQ4 (6.0L Iron Block). It comes with a 4.000" bore already. Having it bored .030" over to 4.030". Most people use a 4.000" stroke to get a 408cid engine, but I'm doing a 4.100" stroke because, like you, this car will be much more street than strip. The larger stroke nets a 418cid and should yield more torque without having to spin the RPM's as high. The 4.000" stroke would be a higher rev'ing engine and would probably be better for a drag strip set-up.

A forged rotating assembly is the pricey part. Anywhere from $2500 upwards to almost $5,000 (Lunati is expensive...).

Throw on some nice heads (I'm using my budget heads from my LS1, there are much better heads for around $2500).

I'd also say do a ported FAST 92/92 (or bigger).

Then pick your cam (fun part ) and enjoy!

With a good set of heads, you'll be at your goal easily!

Silverado_13

iTrader: (5)

What heads are you considering as of right now?

I would suggest a lightweight aluminum flywheel as it will be a road racer.

You'll need a way to quench this beast. Bosch 044 fuel pumps are what I would recommend. New injectors are a must.

I wouldn't get TOO crazy with the camshaft as it will be driven on the street. Maybe 240 duration and around .625" lift.

Are you planning on running with stock internals?

Don Nguyen

iTrader: (2)

dankl, the main reason for me not wanting to run an iron block is because it is 75lbs or so heavier. That is a considerable amount of weight, especially if it is going on the front end of the car.

I honestly don't even know where to start at yet for heads, or any internal parts for that matter, so I am all ears. Just trying to get a base/foot hold started, so I can do some more research on them.

I will definitely be looking at getting a ltw flywheel. I'll need to talk to a couple of companies/manufacturers on that one.

What size injectors do you recommend running? I've ran 42lb injectors on a turbo car that was running 400rwhp before, and apparently that was running them at their limits.

As far as internals goes, if I can get away with running stock internals, I will. However, if by running stock internals means that my engine will blow out in 1k miles, then I will upgrade them. From my limited research, I saw that for my power goals, upgrading the rod bolts and maybe rods would be a good idea. However, the rest should be good for 700+rwhp. Correct me if I am wrong.

-Don

Grimes

iTrader: (3)

If you want to be more reliable, I would look into a dry sump setup, or at least a really good baffled oil pan. All the power in the world wont do you any good if you lose oil pressure in a turn!

Silverado_13

iTrader: (5)

If you're looking at crankshafts, Kellogg makes a good quality product. No, not the cereal.

If they're in your price range, I'd look at some World Warhawk heads.

You'll probably want to go with a solid roller camshaft.

Texas Speed and Performance has a good selection of dished pistons.

Exhaust cutouts work wonders. As you said this will be a street car as well, when you redo the exhaust place these before the catalytic converters and open them up for the track.

Dry sump oil system is a must as this will be a road course car.

By the way, what type of vehicle is this setup going into?

AznMuscle

iTrader: (7)

Is there a reason why shooting for 500, and not something more managable on the stock bottom, like 450? Class limitation to 500, so get the most as possible? Anyway, you could do a 402 stroker for the aluminum block, AFR or TFS 225s, and have a custom cam made for your application. FAST/NW 92/92 up top, and think about gear selection along with your cam choice.

Don Nguyen

iTrader: (2)

Very true. That will definitely be on the list of things to do.

I will take a look at those companies that you've mentioned, thanks.

I was also going to do what you mentioned, which is run exhaust cut outs, and open them up for the track, or when I just want to be obnoxious. Loud cars are fun, but not when they are loud all of the time.

Here is a picture of the car that it is going to go in (picture is a bit old, other things have been done to it since then):



The car is completely stock, engine wise right now. I didn't want to bother around with small mods here and there, which costs a ton and gives me very little in return. I am getting tired of topping out at ~120-130mph due to aero, and not having enough power (~200rwhp at the moment).

I was just aiming for 500rwhp, since that's what some of the cars in my class are running. Just trying to make it as competative as possible. Heck, if I can make 600rwhp and be reliable (as well as be able to put the power down), then I would.

The T56 trans will most likely stay stock, and I will just have a custom diff built around/for my needs. I just need to find someone who will give me a sponsorship for one

DONAIMIAN

iTrader: (18)

You can do this one of two ways

The WC C6 method
Small motor, high RPM

ALMS C6.R method
Big motor, low RPM

Both setups will make the power your looking for if the parts are chosen wisely. The big motor will do it more efficiently, and more reliably.

Also check your rules for loop holes. I plan to eventually run NASA time trials and the main reason I went solid roller is because the rules didn't discriminate between HR and SR cams.

Don Nguyen

iTrader: (2)

Here is a snippit of the rules:

"Engines are permitted to be “built”. (Forged rods, pistons, crank, etc). Built engines are not considered a major engine upgrade per these rules. Upgraded turbo chargers, on a vehicle that came with a factory turbo, is NOT considered a “Major” engine upgrade per these rules. Installation of Headers, Intakes, Exhausts, Cams, high performance cylinder heads, etc is NOT considered “Major Engine Upgrades” per these rules."

I will also have to run cats for my class. Everything else is somewhat general/vague. I will have to double check to see if a different model/make engine is allowed. However, from last year's numbers, the cars running in modified was only running ~2 seconds faster than the cars in the street class.

Also while we are talking about it. I have a chance to purchase a 1998 salvage LS1 Camaro for ~$2k. However, I have hard that the ECU/PCM is hard to tune, and that the oil passages on the rear of the block can be troublesome. On the other hand, others say that the oil passages will only be a problem if the oil pump fails, so if I upgrade that, I should be fine. Same goes with the ECU/PCM. People say that it can be upgraded to a 99+, which might not be hard, considering that I will have to rewire everything to make it work in my car anyways. Just not sure how much extra it'd cost, and if it would be easier to just purchase a 99/00 LS1 instead.

DONAIMIAN

iTrader: (18)

With that being said I would run most cubes and solid roller from a reliability stand point and shift the motor at 6k.

dankl

iTrader: (1)

You can get an aluminum block since budet is not as much of an issue as weight is for the block. Aluminum block is just a little more expensive, but gets costly to resleeve if you blow it (I could be wrong...)

If you want to do it right, check out the warhawk blocks. Or you could drop in the LS7 block.

Edit: Do you already have an LS1 block? Just curious...

Silverado_13

iTrader: (5)

Since we're talking about stock CI LS1, this is what I would do.

Well... In that case, you could always put the cutouts before the mufflers and get high-flow cats.

Yeah, less weight in the front end is nice. But, keep in mind in road racing you want to maintain as close as possible to a 50/50 weight distribution percentage.

Don Nguyen

iTrader: (2)

Where these the heads you were referring to?

http://www.worldcastings.com/prods_p...arhawkls1x.htm