Ms4 cam right for what I'm doing?
03-23-2009, 03:11 PM
#1
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Ms4 cam right for what I'm doing? Trying to get some more knowledgable opinions here. I am about to do a cam swap(keeping stock 241 heads for now). It's a 2001 camaro, 2002 motor with 40k miles, mating up to a T-56. This will be a DD car for a good while, not much traffic driving really. My performance goals are mostly on two parts, fun driving, and occasional roll racing(rare track trips, not my priority). I was looking for a roll racing/street cam. My car will be tuned well, and I will not settle for less than 400 rwhp(full bolt ons+cam), and would like to squeeze 425 out.
I guess what I'm asking is, should I go ahead with the ms4(would order the cam kit w/springs etc.), or is there another cam with similar power but maybe at lower rpms? Is such a high revving cam really rough on the motor?(I know I'll be getting on it a decent amount). Do I need to upgrade anything else that doesn't come with tsp's kit?
Thanks in advance.(Remember track performance is *NOT* my goal, fun on the street, and roll power, I'm not a retard running around street racing through traffic either for those concerned, I live in texas, and we have alot of open roads to play on)
I guess what I'm asking is, should I go ahead with the ms4(would order the cam kit w/springs etc.), or is there another cam with similar power but maybe at lower rpms? Is such a high revving cam really rough on the motor?(I know I'll be getting on it a decent amount). Do I need to upgrade anything else that doesn't come with tsp's kit?
Thanks in advance.(Remember track performance is *NOT* my goal, fun on the street, and roll power, I'm not a retard running around street racing through traffic either for those concerned, I live in texas, and we have alot of open roads to play on)
03-23-2009, 10:57 PM
#3
To answer your question, No. There are a lot better choices out there. You will have a real shitty dynamic compression ratio, since you cannot mill the heads with out PTV clearance. A lot of races are done and over with before the MS4 works it's "magic". You'd be alot better off with something that makes better average hp and torque. If all you are after is a number than go for the MS4.
03-23-2009, 11:49 PM
#4
To answer your question, No. There are a lot better choices out there. You will have a real shitty dynamic compression ratio, since you cannot mill the heads with out PTV clearance. A lot of races are done and over with before the MS4 works it's "magic". You'd be alot better off with something that makes better average hp and torque. If all you are after is a number than go for the MS4.
What do you race 40-55? Actually on a car with good size gears low rpm torque is far form the primary concern especially when he says he will be roll racing. How many times have you roll raced from 2-3k? Never if you like winning.
OP- If roll racing is what your about you do want a big huge ugly high reving max power cam. If you can handle the manners. Which more than anything is have a decent tuner that cares. Another thing is the big cam dont like full weight cars. So the lighter the better(Even more than normal). The ms4 might not be the cam for you tho. See if anyone local has a big cam car. See what you think. If you like it... Vindicator,ms4,trex for the win.
(pollutor and any other "donkey dick cam's i missed)
03-24-2009, 12:21 AM
#5
He said his two goals are fun driving and ocassional roll races. How much fun is it not having power right when you want it. If all you are concerned about is power from 5000-7000 rpm than ya this cam would be ok, but there is better. A cam that makes 20-30 hp more from 3-5k and is only down 5hp to the ms4 at 6500 would sure be a hell of a lot more "fun". It would also smoke the ms4 by the time it even gets to 6500rpm. Might as well go big or go home right? Put the T-rex or polluter in, who cares about having the proper compression to support it! You guys are funny.
03-24-2009, 12:43 AM
#6
I bet would have to go with a 5500rpm punch to get any where with the MS4. A smaller cam car will jump ahead and you will be trying to catch him the whole race. Not worth it for the street. ZERO power down low, for real.
I had an MS3 car and even with 410's it was way too peaky and was gutless down low. Something like a 224-230 cam will be the best, imo. Power under the curve, but who cares right?
Go ahead and get the MS4 if you really want it. Just come back and tell us the results.
I had an MS3 car and even with 410's it was way too peaky and was gutless down low. Something like a 224-230 cam will be the best, imo. Power under the curve, but who cares right?
Go ahead and get the MS4 if you really want it. Just come back and tell us the results.
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03-24-2009, 01:00 AM
#8
Ever heard of gears? with a cam like this i would say 4.10's MIN.
This cam is not for everyone. But as i said if OP wants to roll race....
M6 with 4.10's
30 roll- 4300 Rpms
50 roll- 4800 Rpms
60 roll- 4200 Rpms
M6 with 4.30's
30 roll- 4500 Rpms
50 roll- 5000 Rpms
60 roll- 4400 Rpms
Gears seem to make this cam make sense. And come on guys... a cam geared m6 will do plenty of tire spinning down low if thats what he wants.
Again custom is always better. Bigger is not always better. But for rolls High reving High Hp cams get it done.
Everyone always wants to talk like the big cams will make your car a geo metro till 5k.
03-24-2009, 02:01 AM
#9
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ive got an MS4 with 241s and 411s and i love it... i dont see anyone with a big cam in a sig list to be saying anything about it actually. i see someone with a minor bolt on car and a blower car... hmm that really makes sense that they should give advice on a big cam car..
what your looking at is what the MS4 is designed to do. Its a little rough to DD but its not hard to get through it. With 4.11s the car starts to pull about 3000-3500, which is what 35 in first? with an M6 its all about gear selection for "fun driving". Dont let people that dont have it give you advice, most people just see "oh i want a donkey dick cam to say i have one" and "its not about top end power its great to have low end torque!" which thats cool, last time i checked "low end torque" is great... for towing. I belive your into upper end coming outa the hole at the track, so great use it is there!!
its your car do what you want
what your looking at is what the MS4 is designed to do. Its a little rough to DD but its not hard to get through it. With 4.11s the car starts to pull about 3000-3500, which is what 35 in first? with an M6 its all about gear selection for "fun driving". Dont let people that dont have it give you advice, most people just see "oh i want a donkey dick cam to say i have one" and "its not about top end power its great to have low end torque!" which thats cool, last time i checked "low end torque" is great... for towing. I belive your into upper end coming outa the hole at the track, so great use it is there!!
its your car do what you want
03-24-2009, 02:16 AM
#10
The ms4 provides a 7.5:1 DCR on a stock 10:1 LS1 motor. Thats terrible for a cam only setup, you cannot even mill the heads with out fly cutting to bump the compression. There are better choices out there that you could still make peak power around the same rpm as the ms4. You are forgetting he said "fun on the streets", ms4 does not sound like much fun on the street to me. If you like driving around at 5000 rpm on the streets than ya this cam might be fun.
Oh to answer the OP's question if a high rpm cam is hard on things, yes it is. The MS4 uses the most agressive hydraulic LSK intake lobe profile comp offers for the LS1's. This is going to be very hard on your valvetrain. Go with the proven el torro cam 230/230 111 xfi/xer or like a FMS13, that will be a fun setup with great torque for the street.
Oh to answer the OP's question if a high rpm cam is hard on things, yes it is. The MS4 uses the most agressive hydraulic LSK intake lobe profile comp offers for the LS1's. This is going to be very hard on your valvetrain. Go with the proven el torro cam 230/230 111 xfi/xer or like a FMS13, that will be a fun setup with great torque for the street.
03-24-2009, 02:39 AM
#11
[QUOTE=Nitroused383;11301436]The ms4 provides a 7.5:1 DCR on a stock 10:1 LS1 motor. Thats terrible for a cam only setup, you cannot even mill the heads with out fly cutting to bump the compression. There are better choices out there that you could still make peak power around the same rpm as the ms4. You are forgetting he said "fun on the streets", ms4 does not sound like much fun on the street to me. If you like driving around at 5000 rpm on the streets than ya this cam might be fun.
QUOTE]
Thats is honestly a very ignorant statement. You are seriously just repeating **** you have heard.
7.5:1 Dcr is horrible? Whats the DCR on say... the top 10 on the cam only list?
And since were talking cam only... milling the heads doesnt seem to make much sense huh...
You talk like the ms4 is a light switch. Like it makes 185 ft pounds and wont do anything till 5k.
Ever been in a Ls car with 4.10/4.30's? A stock m6 will blow street tires away if you just want to play around. NO cammed m6 is going to be dull to drive. PERIOD.
IF you can handle the manners of a big stick car...IF your willing to build the combo Gears,weight,stall,Spin your motor high enough Then the bigs cam will be faster. Not saying the Ms4 especially but big cams in general.
The Big sticks are not for everyone. No one is saying they are. They reason people say what they do about them(the people your paraphrasing) is because most people dont know what it takes to make the cam worth it or the cam simple doesnt meet their needs.
QUOTE]
Thats is honestly a very ignorant statement. You are seriously just repeating **** you have heard.
7.5:1 Dcr is horrible? Whats the DCR on say... the top 10 on the cam only list?
And since were talking cam only... milling the heads doesnt seem to make much sense huh...
You talk like the ms4 is a light switch. Like it makes 185 ft pounds and wont do anything till 5k.
Ever been in a Ls car with 4.10/4.30's? A stock m6 will blow street tires away if you just want to play around. NO cammed m6 is going to be dull to drive. PERIOD. IF you can handle the manners of a big stick car...IF your willing to build the combo Gears,weight,stall,Spin your motor high enough Then the bigs cam will be faster. Not saying the Ms4 especially but big cams in general.
The Big sticks are not for everyone. No one is saying they are. They reason people say what they do about them(the people your paraphrasing) is because most people dont know what it takes to make the cam worth it or the cam simple doesnt meet their needs.
03-24-2009, 07:44 AM
#12
ive got an MS4 with 241s and 411s and i love it... i dont see anyone with a big cam in a sig list to be saying anything about it actually. i see someone with a minor bolt on car and a blower car... hmm that really makes sense that they should give advice on a big cam car..
I guess since I'm a blower car I better get stay out of this thread now
03-24-2009, 11:32 AM
#13
I love the whole "no bottom end" " have to rev it to go" because quite frankly im not worried about WOT. I want to be faster than anyone when i pass people in OD and most certainly faster when im at National Half throttle event thats held here in town weekly
03-24-2009, 02:19 PM
#15
Big cams suck ***** for everyday driving, basically having a fun car that pulls everywhere. They are a blast to rev up, other than that waiting for the car to move until 4k sucks.
03-24-2009, 06:03 PM
#20
I'd like to make a point that many (don't jump me, I didn't say all) of these guys talking about how awful a big cam performs on the street have never driven one. I run a MS4 in my car (although it does have a milled set of 5.3's on it) and there is NO problem driving this car around and having fun with it. Mine idles great, and will break the tires loose almost whenever and wherever you please (especially before I swapped from a M6 to an A3). Read my last thread about driving the car 30 miles, having a ton of fun doing so, running a low 11.4 pass @ 122 OFF IDLE WITH STOCK GEARING AND A TIGHT STALL, and then driving the car home, having just as much fun.
I'll take a big cam, maybe it's just me, but it just seems like more fun....
You just have to be smart with the tune (speed density is great because it gets rid of problems with reversion, or double metering, of air through the maf with a big cam) and be realistic with your goals.
I'll take a big cam, maybe it's just me, but it just seems like more fun....
You just have to be smart with the tune (speed density is great because it gets rid of problems with reversion, or double metering, of air through the maf with a big cam) and be realistic with your goals.