Ralphy g-Machine

iTrader: (3)

Hey guys,

I've been lurking/learning here for a while, (I figured I'd finally jump in and get some opinions) I was referred to the site by Tony (Nineball) the owner.

Okay so here is my situation, (Sorry for such a long post, but please bare with me...skip the second paragraph if you don't want to hear the specifics of the car, but rather are just interested in the engine)

I am building an Extreme Pro-Touring/G-Machine type vehicle

Here is the details if you are interested, if your not one for reading, like me...lol and you just want to get to the engine part, scroll down...The car is a 1968 Camaro. It will be recieving a custom parallel 4 bar rear suspension with adjustable panhard bar, and QA1 coilovers, along with a custom sway bar. Front Suspension will include Detroit Speed Tubular Upper Control Arms with Coilover kit with QA1 coilovers, as well as 1 1/8 hotchkis sway bar and Tubular Lower Control Arms...as well as Solid Aluminum body mounts and detroit speed subframe connectors. The brakes will be Wilwood 6 piston 13 inch discs up front and 4 piston 12 inch discs out back. The car will be Dark Grey Metallic with custom silver side stripes similair to a strobe stripe on the AAR cudas only without the "strobe spaces" The car will be recieving a custom NASCAR type adjustable spoiler along with a 12pt roll cage, front and rear leather seats from a 2002 WS6 and a fast ratio steering box from Lee's Power Steering(The guy who makes the steering boxes for NASCAR dudes.)

Okay now sorry for the long blabbing but onto the good stuff...about the goals of the car, the goals of the car are to achieve 1G on the skid pad, 180mph top speed and run the 1/4 mile in 10 seconds. In order to achieve the 1G goal, the suspension and brakes have already been taken car of...but for the 10sec 1/4 times and 180 top speed, I'm going to need some good ol' fashioned hp...

I am planning on making ATLEAST 440rwhp, but would like to see upwards of 450rwhp. Here's where you come into play. What engine setup would you run to achieve this goal? Keep in mind that money is an option so I really don't want to stroke the engine, but I will if I have to...

The two engine setups I had in mind were (Both include all bolt-ons and free hp mods)
MTI Stage IIE Cylinder heads along with the X1 Cam, bauer ported throttle body, and LS6 intake manifold. (This is the cheaper of the two engines..do you think it will make 450rwhp?)

or

Patriot Performance Stage III LS6 heads, X1 or bigger cam, bauer ported throttle body, and ls6 intake manifold. Coupled with a 383 stroker kit from Lunati.

Both of these engines will have shorty headers and dual exhaust...what do you guys think?? How much will the first engine make, 440+??? What about the second engine??

Thanks in advance and sorry for such a long post!!
Ralph

jrp

iTrader: (16)

first off that sounds like your car is gonna be ****** killer

hit up Lou about the g5x3 cam. with absolute heads and the x3 and some bolt ons they hit 470 and like 465 on an independant dyno.

Ralphy g-Machine

iTrader: (3)

Hey,

Thanks for the compliment, and the reply...much appreciated!!

Who makes the g5x3 Cam? I've been reading alot about it lately on here and it seems to be the cam to beat right now, but I'm not sure who makes it? As far as the absolute heads go, you are reffering to the heads made by Absolute Speed, right? Stage 1, 1.5, or 2??

Thanks again!
Ralph

jrp

iTrader: (16)

http://www.lgmotorsports.com/ is the company that makes the g5x2 and x3 cam. i havent dealt with lou personally but from what i've heard his customer service is top notch. definately give him a call and discuss your project goals. yes the heads were absolute speed, they were specialy ported stage 2 or stage 3 ls6 heads. your shorties will definately be a bottle neck though.

Ralphy g-Machine

iTrader: (3)

Okay cool, I'll give Lou a call on monday and discuss the needs of my project with him and see what he can do for me...This is really looking good considering the hp numbers he made without stroking the engine...the more I think about it, the more I don't wanna go to a stroker...

I know the shorties are going to be really restrictive but its all I can do/afford...the only version of headers currently available for ls1 retrofits into a first gen camaro without rack and pinion are the Street and Performance headers, and those retail for around $500, it would cost me anywhere from $1400-2500 for a good set of custom headers from the shops/people i've been talking to...so that really isn't an option...

Cal

iTrader: (1)

Hmmm, I don't think you are going to quite meet your goals with shorties; at least get Mac mid length. Long tube headers, some good stage II heads, an X1 cam with PCM tuning and all the bolt ons will be around 430 rwhp.

11 Bravo

iTrader: (3)

Get the 383. Because you would have peak power of 450rwhp dpesn't mean you will automatically get 10's. I think too many people focus on high dyno #'s. Good old fashioned torque is what you need. With the cheap Eagle cranks out now, I wouldn't even think of doing just h/c. You seem to have a nice budget, so do it up right. Unless I'm wrong, you will not need S3 heads on a stock bore 383. Geet S2's heads and save some money there.

Chicago Crew UnderBoss

iTrader: (1)

I agree with Bravo 100%. Get the extra cubes and torque made by the stroker as torque rules and that's what will get your 10 sec. time slip. Try to save a bit more and get some real headers on as you don't want to get choked and that's what the shorties will do to your engine!

Good Luck!

Ragtop 99

iTrader: (7)

Another vote for a stroker and long tubes. 450 rwhp gets hit by H&C packages (with long tubes), but not consistently. A Stroker is pretty much guaranteed to hit 450 rwhp and the extra torque will get you the 10s.

180 mph top end requires the right gearing. With a stroker you probably will not want to spin over 6500. A big bore 383 allows more rpm toward that goal.

Weight and wind resistance are obstacles to your goals. You can easily control weight in your set-up so keep that in mind.

bspz28

iTrader: (1)

Or you can give cartek a call .. My car made 463 hp and 410 tq to the wheels with their X-package, heads and cam. With a Moser 9" with 4.10 gears LS6 rev II heads and a 224/228 cam. The G5X2 or G5X3 cams are huge. Where the 224/228 cam has a nice tone to it and make tons of power. They are a sponsor on here give dave a call at 908-317-4486

Chicago Crew UnderBoss

iTrader: (1)

I agree, you can't beat the Cartek package if you want to get into the 10s with H/C and they are running a special right now for 8K installed and tuned out the door.

However, if you want the HUGE dyno numbers and track ets that the gentleman above is proud to have, then you MUST bring your car to CARTEK in person for them to work their magic with their unsurpassed TUNNING PROWESS and with all of their special install and tuning tricks that are needed to get the entire components running together in perfect harmony.

I still say your go with the big cubes and get the motor dialed in by a top tuner like MTI or Cartek so you can get the power you should be running with so a motor!

Ralphy g-Machine

iTrader: (3)

Hey all,

Thanks for all the responses...after thinking long and hard last night, I have decided to change my goals, for this car anyway...I have refined my goals to 400+rwhp, and a top speed of 170, with an 11 second quarter mile timeslip...Okay...I know what your thinking...what a sell-out, right? But let me explain first.

This car is half mine, and half my Dad's...I'm only 17 and I have very little first hand auto experience, however I have done quite alot (3 years worth) of reading/research so I have this project pretty well planned out...Now here is my dilema...I'm working on a 17 year old's budget, which means that I have to pay for half of this stuff, and my Dad the other half ( Initially the car was going to be all mine, but the project snowballed from a 1969 454bbc camaro with and m22 and 4:56 rear(( a very cool car in its own right, but not for road racing..which is what i plan to do with this car)) to a ls1 powered 68 camaro with 2003 suspension technology..forged 3 piece wheels and all the other good stuff...) so i gotta stay realitvely cheap on this car...hence my deciding against the stroker..So the bad news in this situation is there is going to be no stroker...BUT i'm not going to go stock...i'm going to go with a good set of stage II heads, along with an x1 or g5x3 type cam and spend the extra money that i save over going with the stroker...on long tube headers...

Another deciding factor against the stroker was that I am going to be building this engine MYSELF(My dad has taken the approach similar to throwing a kid who can't swim in deep water and saying LEARN! LOL...so I'm getting thrown into this engine sitaution with no previous experience...i mean i know how an engine works and waht a crankshaft is and does and what cams do and all that good stuff, i just done have any first hand experience...) so i dont think assembling an engine from scratch is the best option at this point...i think i'll start with a stock longblock and try and get the heads and cam and intake on there first...

Okay guys thanks for all the info and advice...now i need a little more...So my setup has been refinied to stage II heads..big cam..ls6 intake...and long tube headers...the heads will either be MTI(My first choice)Absolute Speed, Patriot, or Cartek..as will the cam...the headers will be from kooks as i am in NY...

So what do you think...am i taking the right route, or not(by saving the streoker for the next prokect, and going with long tubes for this one?)? Sorry for the novel of a post btw....

EDIT: My budget is around $6k for the entire engine and tranny, if you are wondering..so it breaks down something like this
-Stock short or longblock - $1000
Stage II heads - $1500-2000
Cam - $400
Intake - $400
Custom headers - $1400
Misc. parts and accessories - $800
Tranny - $600-1200 depending if i rebuild it myself or not...

Any advice for a first time engine build up, or tranny rebuild?

foff667

iTrader: (2)

what tranny are you getting? 4L60e? T56? other? With a T56 & some 4.10 gears autoX, road racing or at the drag strip youd be aight...usually people pick a manual for roadracing as well as autoX...drag racing is a bit different and to run good #'s usually requires a completely different setup suspension wise. Even if you have 450 hp if your car cant put it to the wheels in a strait line you wont put down any good #'s...maybe mph wise you will but et's are won and lost with suspension and tires alot of the time. Id suggest to try and find a wrecked 01-02 car for the motor unless you find an earlier one madd cheap only cuz the 01-02 cars already come with the ls6 manifold...I would try to get a decent set of heads but just a very very good valvetrain...if your talking about roadracing your going to be in the upper end of the powerband most of the time which would need a good set of springs as well as a very lite and strong valvetrain. Cam I wouldnt put alot of money into if your not gonna go with long tubes...i mean just go with like a TR230 er soemthing generic and stick with the manifolds if its gonna cost 2 grand for headers...youll probably only make in the 380-390 range hp wise but if you have a light enough car youll be able to hit 170 on a straitaway pretty easy.

lata
Bill

JasonZ28

I am currently building a car similar to what you're wanting. I'm building a heads/cam/blower motor for my '98 z-28 which boasts full BMR suspension, tubular k-member, tubular a-arms, and coilovers, moser 12-bolt with 4.10's, D&D racing t-56. The car rolls on Fikse Fm5's backed by Baer Eradispeed's, and I'mn going to be swapping out the tan leather, for all black leather, and adding a SS hood and spoiler, and doing a set of Hugger Orange stripes. I'm currently having a hard time myself, with which heads/cam for the blower, and waht will make the best HP/TQ numbers on pump gas and still be daily driveable. Looking for 620+rwhp/550+rwtq.


Going to be an exciting ride!

Oh, and hey...who says that a 11.79@136mph can't be fast? So the car wouldn't be ideal for deadstop type racing, but take them to the highway and see waht happens..that's what I'm wanting from my car..to be able to pull street bikes, and high end exotics.

-Jason

foff667

iTrader: (2)

it'll take alot more than 450hp to put a 136mph up on the board your blower car maybe his low end heads cam car i doubt though. And while hes spinning through 1st 2nd and 3rd gears I'll be turning onto the next exit thanks hehe.

lata
Bill

JasonZ28

I was speaking about a trap i'd expect from my car. heads/cam/15psi via Vortech YS-Trim.

600+rwhp should be able to still post a 130+ even clawing for traction the first few gears.

LawmanSS

iTrader: (19)

If you're considering heads and cam, check with Mikey at Rapid Motorsports------>
He's located in eastern PA (not too far from NY) and his H/C package put down 443 rwhp. He's currently running a special, too!

Nasty N8

iTrader: (33)

We could also set you up with the heads and cam package in the price range you are looking at, maybe even a little cheaper. It would also hit an easy 425+ and have the TQ under the curve you will need for the road racing. Any questionsn give us a call.

Thanks Nate

Old SStroker

Thoughts:

1) With your limited engine budget, why an LS1?, especially since installing it in a 1st Gen is more work ($) than using an older SBC. I think your goals could be met with a reasonably economical 383 like 96Z has in his car. I's an LT1, and pre-LT1 is even less expensive. The extra few lbs won't be a deal-spoiler, IMO.

2) Parallel 4-link rear for 1 g cornering? Unless it was specifically designed for reasonable roll-steer characteristics, you might be disappointed. Most 4-links I've seen are basically for dragging. Who did the suspension design? There are a couple of things you can do to front geometry which will help also.

3) 170mph in a '68 will need a little aero work to keep it near the ground. Cup spoiler sounds good. Front air dam needs work, and getting the car low enough in the front and with about an inch of rake will help.

4) There is a lot more published how-to-build-it info for older SBC than for LS1. I think you'd be much more successful going that route.

My $.02

Nine Ball

iTrader: (38)

Hey, don't spoil his idea like that, I've already convinced him to put a modern engine in his project car

Ralph, 11s are much more reasonable and cheaper to accomplish than 10s. Of course, you could always add nitrous later and run 10s too!

Tony