Engine Build Gone Wrong?
10-06-2009, 10:55 AM
#1
Engine Build Gone Wrong? Ok I will post all the facts here and see where this leads.
First build previous owner had done by a shop we both use. Motor is a 408ci with a GenTTR turbo kit. Well previous went thru the break in process and said it was smoking. *I did not know this at the time.*
Well previous owner gets pissed at all the tuning issues and the smoking issues and posts it for sale. Well not knowing this I buy it for my wife. Get the car all going and load it up on the trailer so the shop that built the motor can do a once over and make 100% sure everything was correct.
Well it gets to the shop and the builder checks everything and said its smoking and tells me the previous owner did not break it in correctly. Keep in mind this is a brand new motor with less then 800miles on it. So I contact the previous owner and raise hell. Well he agrees for the original shop to perform the rebuild and he would cover the cost which they replaced the rings honed the cylinders and checked the bearing for wear.
So talking with the builder that this is a N/A motor and we will follow his break in steps to assure there are zero issues. He even went as far as using hptuners to limit the rpm at 3500 and the speed at 85mph. He used a break in additive with rotella. Direct was to drive it normal with varying rpms and after 500miles swap to a reg ol 10W30 oil. During there break in period it smoked very little if at all.
Well 500miles rolled around and guess what time to change the oil. Swapped to 10W30 and within a few miles it starts smoking. Within a day the oil light come on and wife pulls in to gas station and calls me. She adds 1qt and it’s full again. She drives it around again for a few days and light again. This time it takes 3qts. I send the builder an email and get the excuse that it might be a valve stem. However keep in mind he did a stage 3 port job on these heads for the previous owner so that should not even be a issue since they were replaced. Then tries to blame it on the oil which he thought it was taken to a jiffy lube which it was not. Last thing he tells my wife is to pull the plugs and see if there is oil on them........ Hell its smoking out of the exhaust of course there is going to be oil on them there is not need to pull them.
First build previous owner had done by a shop we both use. Motor is a 408ci with a GenTTR turbo kit. Well previous went thru the break in process and said it was smoking. *I did not know this at the time.*
Well previous owner gets pissed at all the tuning issues and the smoking issues and posts it for sale. Well not knowing this I buy it for my wife. Get the car all going and load it up on the trailer so the shop that built the motor can do a once over and make 100% sure everything was correct.
Well it gets to the shop and the builder checks everything and said its smoking and tells me the previous owner did not break it in correctly. Keep in mind this is a brand new motor with less then 800miles on it. So I contact the previous owner and raise hell. Well he agrees for the original shop to perform the rebuild and he would cover the cost which they replaced the rings honed the cylinders and checked the bearing for wear.
So talking with the builder that this is a N/A motor and we will follow his break in steps to assure there are zero issues. He even went as far as using hptuners to limit the rpm at 3500 and the speed at 85mph. He used a break in additive with rotella. Direct was to drive it normal with varying rpms and after 500miles swap to a reg ol 10W30 oil. During there break in period it smoked very little if at all.
Well 500miles rolled around and guess what time to change the oil. Swapped to 10W30 and within a few miles it starts smoking. Within a day the oil light come on and wife pulls in to gas station and calls me. She adds 1qt and it’s full again. She drives it around again for a few days and light again. This time it takes 3qts. I send the builder an email and get the excuse that it might be a valve stem. However keep in mind he did a stage 3 port job on these heads for the previous owner so that should not even be a issue since they were replaced. Then tries to blame it on the oil which he thought it was taken to a jiffy lube which it was not. Last thing he tells my wife is to pull the plugs and see if there is oil on them........ Hell its smoking out of the exhaust of course there is going to be oil on them there is not need to pull them.
Last edited by 1INSANEGTO; 10-12-2009 at 10:10 PM.
10-06-2009, 12:50 PM
#6
For the life of me I don't understand why these shops can't do a simple rebuild, unless their is some unknown...bad batch of oil control rings? Theres a sponsor here that sold an aquantence of mine a pre built NA motor last year and he told them he would be running bottle on it. Not much bottle ie. 100 shot, but the ambient temp in AZ in August can be over 110 F. They said it would be fine even knowing the environment. I guess they didn't calculate in the high ambient conditions when they gave their recomendation that it was ok to run it on the bottle. End result was the ring end gaps going to zero with the high temps and the rod disassosiating itself from the piston when the piston/ring locked up in the bore at tdc. They repaired it, but this was a no brainer.
10-06-2009, 02:51 PM
#10
If you have the same shop rebuild it agian, I would be there to watch as it all comes apart. That way, if they say it's your fault, and try to dodge responsibility again, you can take all of your stuff to another shop for a second opinion. A 408 is not really that complicated, and shouldn't be a problem for a competent shop. 9 times out of 10, it's the shop's error in part selection or machining.
10-06-2009, 02:54 PM
#11
If you have the same shop rebuild it agian, I would be there to watch as it all comes apart. That way, if they say it's your fault, and try to dodge responsibility again, you can take all of your stuff to another shop for a second opinion. A 408 is not really that complicated, and shouldn't be a problem for a competent shop. 9 times out of 10, it's the shop's error in part selection or machining.
10-06-2009, 05:15 PM
#13
Sorry to hear about your situation....
What piston rings were used....and what was deemed wrong when the engine came apart prior to the second rebuild?? (that tear down should have been thorough to try and figure out the source of the problem).
Did the cylinders look excessively glazed? How did the rest of the motor look when it was torn down (bearings, etc.)
Also, very important regarding your issues....was the piston to wall clearance checked before stuffing the same pistons back in the hole with new rings?? A stroker with excessive piston to wall clearance will consume oil because the pistons are rocking too much in their bores unseating the rings.
Its just not that difficult to build these engines if you pay close attention to detail and use the right parts.....the bulk of most people's issues related to the first part of that sentence.
When building an engine expect everything is wrong....this way you check all the components and machine work and leave nothing to chance.
Good luck getting it all resolved....
-Tony
What piston rings were used....and what was deemed wrong when the engine came apart prior to the second rebuild?? (that tear down should have been thorough to try and figure out the source of the problem).
Did the cylinders look excessively glazed? How did the rest of the motor look when it was torn down (bearings, etc.)
Also, very important regarding your issues....was the piston to wall clearance checked before stuffing the same pistons back in the hole with new rings?? A stroker with excessive piston to wall clearance will consume oil because the pistons are rocking too much in their bores unseating the rings.
Its just not that difficult to build these engines if you pay close attention to detail and use the right parts.....the bulk of most people's issues related to the first part of that sentence.
When building an engine expect everything is wrong....this way you check all the components and machine work and leave nothing to chance.
Good luck getting it all resolved....
-Tony
10-06-2009, 06:33 PM
#14
What piston rings were used.... Diamond Pistons
and what was deemed wrong when the engine came apart prior to the second rebuild?? (that tear down should have been thorough to try and figure out the source of the problem). Per the builder in proper break in and the cyl was glazed. They honed and put in new rings.
Did the cylinders look excessively glazed? How did the rest of the motor look when it was torn down (bearings, etc.) Bearings were fine per them. Piston tops look brand new per the builder. Which is weird because it was smoking the from the first build.
Also, very important regarding your issues....was the piston to wall clearance checked before stuffing the same pistons back in the hole with new rings?? A stroker with excessive piston to wall clearance will consume oil because the pistons are rocking too much in their bores unseating the rings. I assume they were as he is the builder... Any good builder would have checked that.
and what was deemed wrong when the engine came apart prior to the second rebuild?? (that tear down should have been thorough to try and figure out the source of the problem). Per the builder in proper break in and the cyl was glazed. They honed and put in new rings.
Did the cylinders look excessively glazed? How did the rest of the motor look when it was torn down (bearings, etc.) Bearings were fine per them. Piston tops look brand new per the builder. Which is weird because it was smoking the from the first build.
Also, very important regarding your issues....was the piston to wall clearance checked before stuffing the same pistons back in the hole with new rings?? A stroker with excessive piston to wall clearance will consume oil because the pistons are rocking too much in their bores unseating the rings. I assume they were as he is the builder... Any good builder would have checked that.
10-06-2009, 07:22 PM
#16
And at this point you cant ***-ume anything.....your trying to get to the bottom of your issues and this is the time questions need to be asked or you may revisit this a third time.
Sounds like your builder is stepping up.....hopefully you guys can sort out your issues.
-Tony
10-07-2009, 10:13 PM
#18
I can certainly empathize with your situation. My car has been on jack stands since March this year, due to very similar issues.
My Procharged iron block 408 started to smoke after about 2500 miles. never seemed bad going down the road, but pulling away from a stop was bad news. Leak down checks and cold static compression test really did not reveal any "major issues".
Installed were a pair of Dart 225 heads, as you may recall there were many threads about excessive oil usage with a certain CNC program run on them....Dart denied any issues with out of the box heads. In any case I was convinced this was my issue.
I ordered a new set of AFR's and thought my issues would be resolved. However after pulling the Dart's it was apparant I had "other oiling issues". I pulled the block and dissassembled, only to find my JE FSR piston skirts were horendously scuffed. had a few stuck / stiff rings. I had superior automotive in Anaheim evaluate the cyl walls, they deemed the RA factor was too slick, and no way for the rings to ever seat. They also put some of the blame on the type of pistons (JE FSR -28cc) along with .006-.007 cyl wall clearance those pistons required. My break in oil was Rotella as well.
After speaking with several "experts" I am now being told that piston designs have evolved some over the last few years. Seems the longer stroke on relatively short piston bores, has in the past caused "issues".
I was ready to go back to a stock stroke with my new build, but after speaking with LME / HKE....and others I have been conviced to give it another whirl. My new setup will be a 403 with Wiseco pistons.
Good luck with your project, I hope you get it all sorted out.
My Procharged iron block 408 started to smoke after about 2500 miles. never seemed bad going down the road, but pulling away from a stop was bad news. Leak down checks and cold static compression test really did not reveal any "major issues".
Installed were a pair of Dart 225 heads, as you may recall there were many threads about excessive oil usage with a certain CNC program run on them....Dart denied any issues with out of the box heads. In any case I was convinced this was my issue.
I ordered a new set of AFR's and thought my issues would be resolved. However after pulling the Dart's it was apparant I had "other oiling issues". I pulled the block and dissassembled, only to find my JE FSR piston skirts were horendously scuffed. had a few stuck / stiff rings. I had superior automotive in Anaheim evaluate the cyl walls, they deemed the RA factor was too slick, and no way for the rings to ever seat. They also put some of the blame on the type of pistons (JE FSR -28cc) along with .006-.007 cyl wall clearance those pistons required. My break in oil was Rotella as well.
After speaking with several "experts" I am now being told that piston designs have evolved some over the last few years. Seems the longer stroke on relatively short piston bores, has in the past caused "issues".
I was ready to go back to a stock stroke with my new build, but after speaking with LME / HKE....and others I have been conviced to give it another whirl. My new setup will be a 403 with Wiseco pistons.
Good luck with your project, I hope you get it all sorted out.
