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6.0L crank w/ F-Body flexplate?

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Old 12-06-2003, 08:23 PM
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Default 6.0L crank w/ F-Body flexplate - Doesn't matter now!

I am planning to build a 6.0L block/crank motor for my F-body. I had heard that the 6.0L crank might not work with my F-Body - I think they meant flywhell, but I have an auto - so it should work with my flexplate, right?

I also heard a hole has to be drilled and tapped for the alternator.

Any other wrinkles I should know about?

Thanks!

Last edited by BLK02WS6; 12-09-2003 at 06:33 PM.
Old 12-06-2003, 09:05 PM
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The early model 6.0's have a longer crank end. Get a later model and you will be OK. I don't remember which one it is though.

I think you will be OK without that one bolt. Someone else might ought to elaborate just to make sure though.
Old 12-06-2003, 09:17 PM
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there is acually two bolts that are not going to work. one you will have to drill and tap the other there is no provision for it so it cant be reused. if you dont drill and tap the other one, your alternator bracket will more then likey fall off eventually. on the crank, the 6.0L will work if it is a 2001 or newer but 6.0L cranks are heavier then LS1s and you will lose some power. I will use a LS1 crank if I where you. With the added weight, you dont what to lose any more power you dont have to.
Old 12-07-2003, 02:10 PM
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Originally Posted by taqwache
there is acually two bolts that are not going to work. one you will have to drill and tap the other there is no provision for it so it cant be reused. if you dont drill and tap the other one, your alternator bracket will more then likey fall off eventually. on the crank, the 6.0L will work if it is a 2001 or newer but 6.0L cranks are heavier then LS1s and you will lose some power. I will use a LS1 crank if I where you. With the added weight, you dont what to lose any more power you dont have to.
Good point about the heavier crank - I'll look into an LS1.
Old 12-07-2003, 02:33 PM
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I've weighed 3 cranks so far.. The 6.0L crank weighed 52 lb, one LS1 weighed 51lb and another LS1 crank weighed 51.5 lb... I believe the 6.0L crank is the stronger of the two, and that's what's in my car..
Old 12-07-2003, 02:38 PM
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From what I have read, the 6.0 crank weighs 52 lbs and the LS1 51 lbs.

https://ls1tech.com/forums/generation-iii-internal-engine/118105-crank-weights-6-0-vs-ls1.html

If the 6.0 is really solid, I'd rather have a solid 6.0 crank in my boosted 6.0 engine for strength reasons anyway. All 2001 and newer 6.0 cranks can be used on the ls1 since they are the same length. I had a 99 6.0 crank and it is longer in length compared to my 2001 6.0 crank.

BE SURE TO SONIC TEST THE 6.0 BLOCK IF YOU GOING TO BORE IT .030 OR LARGER!!! The 6.0 cylinder walls are usally pretty thin. Two 6.0 blocks I purchased could not go .060 over so now I have a set of .060 pistons for sale if anyone is looking for a set. I ended up going .010 over on bore size. I can post my sonic tests if anyone would like to see them.

Last edited by rodent; 12-07-2003 at 03:44 PM.
Old 12-07-2003, 02:50 PM
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Yep Rodent, that was my post in your link regarding the weights.. The scale I used wasn't the most accurate.. It only weighes in lbs since it's typical bathroom scale.. The first LS1 crank I weighed was right on 51lb, the 6.0 crank I weighed was right on 52 lb. The other LS1 crank I weighed flucuated back and forth between 51 and 52 and would not settle one way or the other. I say that means it weighes 51.5lb..

Originally Posted by rodent
From what I have read, the 6.0 crank weighs 52 lbs and the LS1 51 lbs.

https://ls1tech.com/forums/showthread.php?t=118105
Old 12-07-2003, 03:28 PM
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Thanks guys - you are helping me a bunch! I agree, for the one pound difference in weight, I would rather have the solid crank.

I am getting a brand new block, and given I can get Diamond pistons to fit the 4.000 bore, I am gonna build it without boring it out. I have to call Diamond tomorrow and talk to them, as well as my machine shop. I also plan to use Manley forged rods.

I am planning to build this motor using my stock LS6 heads (actually they were shaved .012 to clean them up) and a custom ground cam (I'm thinking something in the 224/580"/112 range). How do you think this combonation will perform in my car with the mods below?

I am just trying to build a dependable 12.0 sec car that I can drive daily. My current LS6 was put together way too loose and has piston slap and rod bearing noise that won't go away (and the machine shop that built it won't stand behind it).
Old 12-07-2003, 03:50 PM
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Originally Posted by bigeller
Yep Rodent, that was my post in your link regarding the weights.. The scale I used wasn't the most accurate.. It only weighes in lbs since it's typical bathroom scale.. The first LS1 crank I weighed was right on 51lb, the 6.0 crank I weighed was right on 52 lb. The other LS1 crank I weighed flucuated back and forth between 51 and 52 and would not settle one way or the other. I say that means it weighes 51.5lb..
Good info on the weights bigeller! I'm staring to wonder if the LS1 crank is really hollow? Someone even mentioned the cranks have the same part number stamped on the cranks but gmpartsdirect has separate part numbers listed. I wonder if a new 6.0 crank is balanced differently to compensate for the larger 6.0 pistons. I would think either the 5.7 or 6.0 crank would work fine as long as everything is balanced correctly.

BLK02WS6 - Go with Diamond. Great company! After I purchased the wrong pistons (custom dished) which was my fault, he couldn't return them since they were custom but he sold the next set to me for his cost. I used Eagle h-beam rods since they were cheaper and I haven't read anyone having problems with those rods. Not sure on that cam, but you might want to ask other companies and this board on the cam. With the right combo, you should be in the 11's.
Old 12-07-2003, 09:49 PM
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the ls1 crank is gundrilled straight though the middle of the main journals in order to release weight for more power. this hole acually makes the crank less prone to crack. it works just like an arched bridge. there is alot of engineering reasons of why this works but i will not get into it. also that 1 pound is a bigger gain then you will think. remember that the engine has to spin that extra pound 6,500 or so rpms. this creates less rotational mass which equals to more power. the 6.0,5.3, and 4.3L cranks are not done like to reduce cost. also they dont need the extra strenght since they will never see the rpms that an ls1 will. in matter of fact, if you look at all the expensive aftermarket cranks, they are drilled though the rod journals and main journals for the same reason. just look at scat, eagle and others web sites and take a good look and the cranks. i am not saying not to use a 6.0L crank. just if you do, understand that you will loose some power especially at higher rpms. if your worried about breaking it, dont worry because both of these cranks (LS1 and 6.0L) will hold over 600hp anyways, regardless if there is a hole or not.
Old 12-07-2003, 11:49 PM
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How much power do you actually think the 0.5 - 1.0 lb of the LS1 crank would free up? I agree that the LS1 cranks are strong, but how could it be stronger than the 6.0 crank if it has a big hole in it? I would also imagine the 6.0 cranks are balanced for the additional piston weight from the 4.00" bore..
Originally Posted by taqwache
the ls1 crank is gundrilled straight though the middle of the main journals in order to release weight for more power. this hole acually makes the crank less prone to crack. it works just like an arched bridge. there is alot of engineering reasons of why this works but i will not get into it.
Old 12-08-2003, 02:10 AM
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Originally Posted by taqwache
the ls1 crank is gundrilled straight though the middle of the main journals in order to release weight for more power. this hole acually makes the crank less prone to crack. it works just like an arched bridge. there is alot of engineering reasons of why this works but i will not get into it. also that 1 pound is a bigger gain then you will think. remember that the engine has to spin that extra pound 6,500 or so rpms. this creates less rotational mass which equals to more power. the 6.0,5.3, and 4.3L cranks are not done like to reduce cost. also they dont need the extra strenght since they will never see the rpms that an ls1 will. in matter of fact, if you look at all the expensive aftermarket cranks, they are drilled though the rod journals and main journals for the same reason. just look at scat, eagle and others web sites and take a good look and the cranks. i am not saying not to use a 6.0L crank. just if you do, understand that you will loose some power especially at higher rpms. if your worried about breaking it, dont worry because both of these cranks (LS1 and 6.0L) will hold over 600hp anyways, regardless if there is a hole or not.
What??? Where did you get this???

The MAIN reason why everyone cross-drills the main journals is for better lubrication. Not to release the weight for more power. How much power do you really think you will gain anyway? I could see a power difference if the LS1 crank is really hollow and the 6.0 isn't but with only .5-1lb of difference, I attribute that to the increased balance weight for the larger 6.0 pistons. After seeing this picture, I truly think that both cranks are the exact same except once is cross-drilled and the other isn't.

https://ls1tech.com/forums/attachmen...tachmentid=817

The 6.0L crank in on the left. Interesting thing is that they both have the same GM part number cast on them (visible in the pic) of 12552216. Sorry but a cross-drilled hole in the mains is not going to add much for power even at high RPM.

Here's a twist to that:

from Hot Rod Magazine
http://www.hotrod.com/tipstricks/34219/index27.html

Tips & Tricks

Why Cross-Drilled Cranks Don’t Work

Cross-drilled cranks kill rod bearings. Don’t believe it? You should. A long time ago, we had nothing but rod bearing grief with a high rpm, aluminum-rod big block (475 cubic inches, 9,000 rpm, wet-sump oiling system with an accumulator and a cross-drilled crank). The rod bearings looked like the engine was detonating, but the pistons were always perfect (great flame travel pattern, nice coloring and so on). We attributed it to bad bearing quality and the need to move to a more sophisticated dry sump oiling system.

Unbeknownst to us, Reher-Morrison had exactly the same trouble: Rod bearings that either looked ugly after one dyno pull or welded themselves to the crank. Through research, Reher-Morrison discovered that the cross-drilling pattern found in crankshafts (of the era) was the culprit. Basically, in a cross-drilled crank, additional oil holes are drilled all the way through the main journals. At high rpm, centrifugal force literally pulls the oil out of the main bearing. The oil has a pinwheel effect coming out of the cross drill and actually starves the rod bearing. The solution is to use a non-cross drilled crank. There are some rather high profile engine builders that believe cross drilling a nodular iron crankshaft will weaken the crank and make the shaft more prone to failure! If you’re not sure if the crank is cross-drilled, insert a welding rod in the drilled main. If the welding rod goes straight through the crank, don’t use it.
And more on that:

http://www.merkelengines.com/documents/Olds455.html

Some people recommend cross drilling #3 and #5 main journals to ensure adequate oil flow to their respective rod bearings. These bearings feed oil to rod bearings number 4, 5 and 8. In all of my experience with Oldsmobile engines I have never seen these particular rod bearings fail. Personally, I think cross drilling has done more harm than good with these engines! Rod bearing failures typically occur with bearings number 7, 6, 1 and 2; rod bearing 7 and 6 are fed oil by main bearing number 4 (cross drilled), number 1 rod bearing is supplied by #1 main bearing (cross drilled) and number 2 rod bearing is supplied by number 2 main bearing (cross drilled). Notice a pattern? David Reher of Reher/Morrison recently reported having experienced rod bearing failures in big block Chevrolet engines with cross drilled crankshafts; replacing those crankshafts with cranks not cross drilled seemed to cure the problem. Here’s the theory: a ½ groove bearing only supplies oil to the rod journal for 180 degrees of rotation, the other 180 degrees residual oil lubricates the rod journal. Cross drilling provides another source for that oil because as one oil hole passes the end of the oil supply groove, the other hole opens up to the groove. But, here’s the problem; in a cross drilled crankshaft, oil has to fight centrifugal force trying to flow to the center of the journal before flowing to the other side where it can feed the rod bearing. If pressure is inadequate to counteract the centrifugal force, oil will actually be forced out of the cross drilled passage and can potentially obstruct oil flow! Oldsmobile big blocks typically have what is referred to as a "fully grooved" main bearing. The oil supply groove runs the full circumference of the bearing. There is really no need to cross drill the crankshaft as the rod bearings have continuous oil flow. Remember, the oil feeding the rod journals from the main bearings do not go through the center of the main journal, these passages are angled toward the rod journal so oil passing through these passages face only a fraction of the centrifugal force that the oil passing through a cross drilled passage would face. Bottom line: in my opinion, don’t cross drill your crankshaft!
And here's a true story that happened to me last summer. My 496 BBC croaked in my K5 Blazer. Rod bearing #5 went and took some of the crank with it. It had an Eagle cross-drilled crank. Coming back from Moab, pushing the engine on the highway. I had no overdrive and was running 4.88 gears. Engine RPM's were 3000-3500 consistant for 4 hours, and at one point 4200-4500 for about 5 minutes. Maybe a little too much for that large engine. After that is when I heard the noise from the faulty bearing. Looked to be an oil issue which could of been from the cross-drilled crank.

Now I'm not saying cross-drilled cranks are bad but that was coming from some reliable sources as mentioned in the articles. Makes you go hmmm....

I'd like to hear other comments on the cross-drilled theory.

Last edited by rodent; 12-08-2003 at 03:34 AM.
Old 12-08-2003, 05:26 PM
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Originally Posted by rodent
What??? Where did you get this???

The MAIN reason why everyone cross-drills the main journals is for better lubrication. Not to release the weight for more power. How much power do you really think you will gain anyway? I could see a power difference if the LS1 crank is really hollow and the 6.0 isn't but with only .5-1lb of difference, I attribute that to the increased balance weight for the larger 6.0 pistons. After seeing this picture, I truly think that both cranks are the exact same except once is cross-drilled and the other isn't.

https://ls1tech.com/forums/attachmen...tachmentid=817

The 6.0L crank in on the left. Interesting thing is that they both have the same GM part number cast on them (visible in the pic) of 12552216. Sorry but a cross-drilled hole in the mains is not going to add much for power even at high RPM.

Here's a twist to that:

from Hot Rod Magazine
http://www.hotrod.com/tipstricks/34219/index27.html



And more on that:

http://www.merkelengines.com/documents/Olds455.html



And here's a true story that happened to me last summer. My 496 BBC croaked in my K5 Blazer. Rod bearing #5 went and took some of the crank with it. It had an Eagle cross-drilled crank. Coming back from Moab, pushing the engine on the highway. I had no overdrive and was running 4.88 gears. Engine RPM's were 3000-3500 consistant for 4 hours, and at one point 4200-4500 for about 5 minutes. Maybe a little too much for that large engine. After that is when I heard the noise from the faulty bearing. Looked to be an oil issue which could of been from the cross-drilled crank.

Now I'm not saying cross-drilled cranks are bad but that was coming from some reliable sources as mentioned in the articles. Makes you go hmmm....

I'd like to hear other comments on the cross-drilled theory.
Note that he said gun-drilled, not cross-drilled! Gun-drilled is through the middle of the journal parellel with the crank length - opposite of cross-drilled.

And it was done to remove weight. But, I still think that the little weight (even though it makes a bigger difference because it is rotating mass) is not gonna kill me. As for stronger, I'm not sure on that one - But like said, either will work for my plans!

Now don't you all turn my post into some great engineering debate on cranks just kiddin!

Thanks for all the help!
Old 12-08-2003, 05:43 PM
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Originally Posted by BLK02WS6
Note that he said gun-drilled, not cross-drilled! Gun-drilled is through the middle of the journal parellel with the crank length - opposite of cross-drilled.

And it was done to remove weight. But, I still think that the little weight (even though it makes a bigger difference because it is rotating mass) is not gonna kill me. As for stronger, I'm not sure on that one - But like said, either will work for my plans!

Now don't you all turn my post into some great engineering debate on cranks just kiddin!

Thanks for all the help!
DUH! I didn't notice the "gun drilled" part. I feel stupid now...
Old 12-08-2003, 08:42 PM
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Originally Posted by rodent
DUH! I didn't notice the "gun drilled" part. I feel stupid now...

thats cool, but it sure is a long couple of post hehe.

blk02ws6, i dont belive that there is anything wrong with the 6.0L crank. if you already got one and you what to build your engine already then go for it. it is not going to hurt you enough to regret it. you probably wont even notice the difference. LS1 cranks cost more anyways and will need more balancing if installed with 6.0L pistons. let us know how it goes.
Old 12-09-2003, 03:37 PM
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The funniest part of this post is that after all of that, I think I have been talked into building a 402 cu in stroker

Somebody stop me

I'm looking at doing:
- 6.0L block (stock 4.00 bore)
- Callies 4.00 stroke crank
- Manley 6.125 rods
- Diamond pistons/rings (4.00 bore, 4.00 stroke, 6.125 rod, 15cc dish)

I'm gonna stick with my LS6 heads/cam for now due to the cost of the shortblock, but I figure that those can easily be changed later when I want to make really big power.

I will have the LS6 head chambers radiused for the 4.00 bores though.

Any thoughts??

Maybe I need to change the subject of the post to nut goes stroker or something like that!
Old 01-23-2004, 03:46 PM
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Sorry to ressurect this post from teh dead, but I found it during a search and wanted to add my $.02

I've worked with bigeller for a while now and we've dicussed the pros/cons fof the LS1/6.0 cranks (and the 5.3 cranks too). I know the measurements we are all going by are from a bathroom scale, and can't be relied on to measure anything smaller than the lb increment, however I hear alot of ppl mentioning that the extra lb of weight is going to hurt. I agree that it IS extra weight, and conceptually that is more mass you have to spin, BUT you also have to consider where that extra mass resides. It's in the center of the rotation. This brings in simple physics of rotational forces, acceleration, and torque arms. It's hard to spin extra mass, but the further from the center of rotation that this mas resides, the greater it is. I get the impression that everybody is assuming this extra lb or so is out on the ends of the bob weights, or on the rod journals, when in fact it's in the dead center of the main journals, and because of this, isn't going to be NEAR the power sap that is being dicussed here.

I also disagree with the idea that the hollow center of the LS1 main journal acts as a bridge and is stronger. Weak points on cranks are due to sharp angles the majority of the time, which is why you'll notice that on the ends of each rod journal, you'll see a fillet, to avoid a shart corner there and a stress point. Most aftermarket cranks do this on EVERY surface to help them maintain strength and eliminate weak points. The gun drilling on the stock LS1 crank creates two 90* angles on each main journal, and I view that as a major stress point. It's also a risk because there's a chance this driling was done AFTER the hardening of the crank, so you end up with exposed surfaces that haven't been hardened like the rest of the crank.

All my opinions are based on my knowledge of physics and of material dynamics, so if anyone here has proof otherwise that I'm incorrect, please post up and correct me. The last thing I want to do is spew bad info.

Thanks!

Matt Baskett
Old 01-23-2004, 04:31 PM
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Well, I don't know if you are right, but I hope you are! I ended up going with a 6.0L crank in my motor that is being built right now. Actually, I would rather have the strength than the HP (as long as the loss is very small).

I don't plan to spin the motor sky high anyway, I'll be shifting at 6,400 or so, depending on what my dyno graphs look like. Mostly it depends on where my cam puts the powerband at. We'll find out in a month or so!
Old 02-01-2004, 06:31 AM
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Sweet.. Let us know how it turns out..
Old 01-21-2008, 06:04 PM
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I have a crank that has 12552218 as the part number. Is that the part number for the longer 6.0L crank (the one that is the same size as the LS1)?
I compared it to my LS1 crank and it seems like the gears on the rear are different. The 6.0 crank has a small gap between both the gears and smaller but the same amount of teeth.


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