masterz28

iTrader: (8)

Pull the cam, whats a few extra bolts.

O2Form

Well the lifter trays themselves only guide the lifters and hold them in place as you assemble the engine. They CAN NOT stop the lifters from turning in the bores if the lifter roller gets damaged. What keeps the lifter in place in the bore is the contact between the roller and the cam. Once the roller or cam gets any damage the lifters will start to move around, the lifter trays are too weak to stop this from happening.

In a link bar system the lifters are held in place safely regardless of what happens. Of course the CHEAP fks at gm didn't go this way..................

cadivette

iTrader: (1)

Same thing happened to my LS6 about 3 years ago. The cam gear bolts backed out and caused the cam to walk back and forth. My lifters looked just like yours. The cam was scarred up a little, probably could have reused it but I didn't. Pull the cam and at least check it.

Darkman

iTrader: (2)

So, if I leave out my lifter trays completely, my odds of failure are no different than if I install lifters trays, is that correct?

O2Form

No because they do guide them when they loose contact with the cam. But you can't expect them to stop the lifter from turning in the bore once the roller is damaged. Once they are damaged and no longer contact the cam straight on they will wear away that plastic like it doesn't exist!

Scary sheeet too because it doesn't take much to scar one of these cams or rollers. GM could have done alot better IMO. Look at the older cast iron blocks that GM built using roller lifters, you don't see near the amount of troubles as the LS engines.

araber89

iTrader: (3)

First of all what RPM are you turning the motor? The MS4 cam is a aggressive cam, just don't want you lifting the lifter off the lobe, I feel this isn't the problem but something to look at. As far as the shop who put two different lifters in, well you probably should never go back. Also if the lifter looks like that, pull the cam to make sure, check the lifter bores for roundness and scoring, and finally you really should drop the pan and check bearing for wear if you did happen to send any metal shavings down through the motor. Or pull the motor, put the LS2 in, freshen and build the current motor then when you have time, drop it back in

Darkman

iTrader: (2)

Well this answer side-steps the question. The question I am asking is not whether the lifter trays can be stop the lifter from turning "once the lifter bore is damaged."

My question is whether the new lifter tray can help prevent an undamaged lifter from turning in an undamaged lifter bore?

Either the lifter tray has some preventive capacity or it does not. If it does not, then the risk of leaving the tray out altogether is zero. (At least under the "worn-lifter-trays-have-nothing-to-do-with-lifters-turning theory.")

O2Form

The lifter tray wear from ONLY if the cam or lifter is damaged...otherwise they do nothing but sit there waiting to guide the lifter if it looses contact with the cam as in like valve float etc or if a lifter woooood lose preload etc.


My answer is NO but you myust have something to guide the lifters if they lose contact and during assembly.

Darkman

iTrader: (2)

If this is true, why does the GM Service Manual indicate that reused lifter trays should be returned to their orignal positions?

Doesn't that instruction suggest that the lifter trays wear-in to a specific set of lifter bores much like the rest of the valvertrain components that are supposed to be reinstalled in their respective original positions?

racer7088

As was said the MS4 is a very aggressive cam. It makes good power. You probably also need to replace your springs as they might be dead now or you might need a little more hoss spring like their PRC EHT spring which you can also get a new set from TSP. The lifters getting pitted like that is a sign they were getting beat up so make sure you address that now at this time and you should be good.

O2Form

Well I'm not saying they don't wear in...i'm not sure what you are fishing for here. I'll sum it up....the plastic lifter trays are lifter guides, they are NOt strong enough to stop a damaged lifter from spinning or moving off axis in its bore. Do NOT depend on them to do anything more than basic lifter alignment. The contact beteween the lifter and cam keeps the lifter from rotating in the bore. I'm starting to get bored myself repeating this ........

brewerz28

iTrader: (4)

I appreciate all the responses..

O2Form..I believe darkman was just looking for clarification bud.

Darkman

iTrader: (2)

I was just looking for clarification, and I think I got it. Based on this thread and similar threads involving damaged lifters, I think the facts are:

!. Lifter trays do help prevent lifters from turning in the lifter bores as do link bars and keyway lifters, but not as effectively.

2. Even though No. 1 is true, it is also true that lifters turning in the lifter bores is the result of an unstable valvetrain (for example, erratic cam-ti-lifter contact from weak or mismatch springs) more often than not.

3. If your lifters are damaged and have turned in the lifter bores, you should always investigate beyond the condition of the lifter trays, because the odds are something else is wrong.

vettenuts

iTrader: (4)

First, check the lifter tray numbers on the bottom. There were some know issues with those with the number "10" on them and 02 falls within the build range where they were used.

Second, I would definitely pull the cam and do an thorough inspection.

Third, check the valve springs. Dollars to donuts they are weak.

For that cam, I would personally run Morel lifters (link bar preferred), PAC duals, and a larger OD pushrod.

SOMbitch

iTrader: (8)

With all respect since you have "been in this game for over ten years" then you should know the cam is TRASHED... Changing the cam is childs play compared to pulling heads which you already have to do.... Change the springs too cause repeated valve float can beat up a lifter...

brewerz28

iTrader: (4)

yes i know. I'm in the process of pulling the cam now. I know better but was trying to convince myself not to. Im about to yank the steering shaft out the side in a few minutes to start pulling the pulley off and so forth.. And once its out I'll take pics of it for yall to see.

Thanks again all for the input and convincing me to do what I already knew I should have done.

O2Form

The lifter trays can not stop the lifters from turning, if the roller or cam is damaged its possible they may turn. ONLY link bar type lifters can't turn in the bores. Lifter trays are a joke!

Darkman

iTrader: (2)

So, if I leave out my lifter trays completely, my odds of failure are no different than if I install lifters trays, is that correct?

O2Form

Well no...they do hold them in place IF the lifter loses contact with the cam. That is their only purpose, there are NOT there to stop the lifters from turning under load. If the roller comes in contact with dirt on the cam or lets say a small piece of metal it is going to twist the lifter and the lifter tray is too weak to stop it.

Its like your underwear....do you really need um NO but your ***** stay in place alot better if you use them.

O2Form

It in IMPOSSIBLE for link bar lifters to turn in the bores.

I'm kinda suprised the after market hasn't jumped this and made some decent lifter trays that can take some abuse.