earmuffs

Trying to decide between the two heads. The trickflows say their 13.5* valves require roller tip rockers, can anyone confirm or deny that? Also anyone have experience with both? thank you

westtexasbuff

iTrader: (40)

I think I've read a few threads that have guys using the TFs with stock rockers.

Really depends what your goals are... You can't really go wrong with either head.

Evans752

iTrader: (29)

When I spend that kind of money and time changing heads out, HANDS DOWN it will be then TFS 215. I am 98% to 99% sure they require roller rockers and that is an $$$ expense but so are the heads LOL. I think I remeber seeing a company on here that sold the necesity's to run stock style rockers but don't remember who. Vengence or TEA perhaps, SORRY not sure.

trans_am7935

iTrader: (15)

ok, there are a few reasons why Trick Flow highly recommends aftermarket roller rockers

The TFS heads require roller rockers is cause of 2 main things. first off they use a different degree angle on the valves so the stock rocker geometry is off, and thy use bronze valve guides, and the bronze ones have a tighter clearance then the GM powder metal ones (on stock style castings), and the stock rockers will not put even pressure on the valve stems. the stock rockers will pre-maturely wear out the valve guides/seals and bleed oil into you chambers, and burn oil. hence why they say that stockers will not work. now sure you can bolt them on and they will push the valve down, but they will slowly eat away at your seals till they leak.

so sure you can run them, but just like they say, it is highly recommended that you upgrade them to rollers. i mean hey...why listen to the guys the spent thousands and thousands of dollars on research, created a new casting design, and surpassed any and all the GM head castings, how would they know what they were talking about.

now there is kit to adapt the stockers and make the geometry pretty dead on, but if you are spending 2200+ on aftermarket heads, might as well get some good rollers that are not gonna ruin them


just my .02

garygnu

you can get trick flow 220 heads that make 10 hp less then the tf215 head ,and still afford YT rockers.

vettenuts

iTrader: (4)

Both heads use bronze valve guides. I would personally run Yella Terra on either head. The higher lift of an aftermarket cam results in a wider wipe pattern with stock rockers then you will get with properly set up Yella Terra rockers. This will result in higher side loads and faster wear on the bronze guides due to the side loading. GM heads use a powder metal guide that is much harder and less prone to wear due to side loading.

Also, the AFR 205 is no longer available and has been replaced by the AFR 210. I prefer the AFR's over the TFS heads. Internet rumor seems to indicate that the TFS make remendous power over any other head, never seen the proof.

1QWIKBIRD

iTrader: (25)

This thread is a very good read and maybe the best example of real world back to back test you could ask for.

https://ls1tech.com/forums/dynamomet...s-results.html

This is purely for informational purposes, but I thought it was very interesting.

garygnu

you can have TEA install powder metal guide on TF heads.I don't know the cost.I really admire the dedication and devotion Tony has toward his heads and workmanship.is that a real word?

earmuffs

Thank you for all your input. im not saying i am going to put stock rockers on the tfs if i buy them, was wondering why they were not recommended. Now that i have an answer thank you.

ct06gto

Don't use roller rockers. Have tfs install powdered metal guides and platinum springs instead of the max springs.You will want to upgrade the trunions in your stock rockers too. If this set up is good for all Brian tooleys motors, it's good enough for me.

earmuffs

y wouldnt i use roller rockers?

ct06gto

They break, do a search and you will see. The stock rocker is the best design with the lightest weight over the tip. The stock trunions suck so you should upgrade to the comp trunions.

earmuffs

if the geomerty is wrong, y would i run them?

trans_am7935

iTrader: (15)

vengeance racing makes a shim kit to center the stock rockers, but if you are gonna spend almost 300 bucks on shims and bearing upgrades, then you might as well buy some yella terra's. oh and that thing about roller rockers breaking, sure it happens, hell i have seen stock ones take a **** and bend at the tip from such stress. you have to realize, nothing in the motor is bullet proof, and some people have ridiculously high lift cams with heavy springs, that is y they broke. you should not worry about them breaking, if you have the extra money, i say go for the YT's

1QWIKBIRD

iTrader: (25)

I didn't post that link to start a . I am in no way challenging the work, quality or dedication of Tony Mamo and AFR. His work, success, results and willingness to go the distance for the customer and share with t he hobby as a whole are all well documented, period.

The OP posted the question concerning those 2 specific cylinder heads and that is about the only example I could find of anything with results on the same motor. Is it a perfect comparison, no (if you read the entire thread, you'll see the TFS head had some hand work done to open up the bore). Never said it was apples to apples. But it is a solid example, on point and good read. I would guess that the number of people that have owned both of those heads and ran them both on the same motor, in the same car with that level of before/after testing is probably pretty slim. But if you have a better comparison of those 2 specific heads on the same motor in a back to back, same dyno, with all other factors (cam, intake, exhaust, etc.), unchanged, please share.

The reason that's the only example I could find? Because one common theme I did notice is that people that end up with an AFR or TFS head are generally so pleased, they don't look elsewhere for cylinder heads. Either cylinder head, with the rest of the supporting parts will deliver the goods and leave you in a happy place.

If you are willing to spend for either of those heads, the main thing is to not drop the ball with the rest of the details and combo. That's where the difference will be. A nice long discussion with Brian at TEA and or Tony at AFR would be the best way for the OP arrive at what best suits his needs and his budget.

Peace

ct06gto

Let me start with my background. I have none, im a pipefitter but i did sleep in a holiday inn express last night.

I am ordering my heads tomorrow but have been doing my research for the last 6-8 months.

I know i DONT want to run roller rockers due to the failure rate.

I have been battling back and forth on how i want to install my rockers. If you do decide to use the stock rocker method, you should upgrade your trunions as mentioned above.
My first method was i ordered the thunder racing shim/pushrod kit that is devised with .090 shims and 7.625 pushrods. As you can see i no longer am going this route but if you decide this is the way you want to do it. Make me reasonable offer on my kit.
https://ls1tech.com/forums/parts-cla...ssory-kit.html

Brian Tooley has been extremly helpful in educating myself and others on how to acomplish this install useing stock rockers and will pass on what i have learned.

1- There are 2 versions of tfs heads. The first version had a totally different geometry and stock rockers were impossible to use. A 7.7 pushrod and roller rockers was used on this version.

2- The newer tfs heads that use the .1 longer pushrod is basically a gm geometry. The only reason trick flow recommends a roller rocker is because of the wearing of the bronze guides. It has nothing to do with geometry. Any head that uses bronze guides should be using roller rockers. If you dont want to run roller rockers you should upgrade the guides to powdered metal to prevent premature guide wear.

3- By installing shims you decrease the sweep pattern and you will increase scrub which is dragging the rocker tip over the valve stem which increases guide wear and valve tip wear.

4-The tfs valve springs were designed for a heavier tipped roller rocker. The tips of the stock rocker are lighter so a valve spring that has no more 400 lbs pressure open. Brian recommended me tho go with the platinum springs. If you keep the stock tfs springs on with stock rockers you will see valve tip wear.

5- Trickflow will produce these heads for $75 more than stock. If you add this to the $130 trunion upgrade and is much cheaper than roller rockers and is a better/stronger set up in my opinion.

I will be using tfs 225 heads with powdered metal guides,platinum springs and 3/8'' pushrods and feel very comfortable doing this thanks to Brian Tooley. Give Brian a PM and im sure he could set you up with everything you need.

Again, Im no expert so take this info for whats its worth. Im just passing on what i have learned.

odarabla

iTrader: (1)

I went 10.90@123mph H/C/I with TFS 215cnc heads and a Futral custom cam With stock suspension full weight (3620lbs race weight) 2002 Camaro Z28. Dynoe results were 447rwhp and 403rwtorq with a 4000 stall converter and a strange 12 bolt rear end with 4.11 rear gear. Here's your proof.


To the op. I am using a set of Harland Sharp roller rockers which is also frowned upon to but look at my #'s. I would run 11'0's-11'teens in the 100 degree heat.

COPO9560

Have you considered the MAST cathedral offerings? They use LS3 rockers but another option to consider.

hammertime

iTrader: (1)

Not to throw any additional fuel on the debate, but look at these quotes from the thread that 1QWIKBIRD linked to...
1QWIKBIRD is right that both heads are quality pieces. Whichever heads you select, your results will largely depend on the attention to detail and preparation that goes into your build. Tony Mamo has echo'd that here as well, a testament to his integrity that he would openly admit his competitor's product is just as good as his.

earmuffs

Is it better to run AFRs with stock rockers or TFS?