TSP 225 As Cast w/ Torquer 2?
03-27-2013, 06:12 PM
#1
TSP 225 As Cast w/ Torquer 2? Hi Everyone,
Been thinking about doing a heads and cam swap for some time now and I think I've settled on a package from TSP. I would like to get your opinions.
My goal for the car is to have something with lots of mid range power. I don't race the car but do like to have fun around town. The car is a weekend driver but I want to maintain as much drivability as possible. My current mods are in my sig. I took the car to the dyno about a year ago and came out with 344/355. I'd like to get to somewhere a little north of 425. Here's my dyno sheet: https://ls1tech.com/forums/eastern-m...time-dyno.html
Here is my parts list so far:
I'm left with a few questions:
Am I missing anything major or do you guys have any suggestions? Anything else I should change while I'm at it? I have been trying to keep the budget around 3k.
Thanks!
Been thinking about doing a heads and cam swap for some time now and I think I've settled on a package from TSP. I would like to get your opinions.
My goal for the car is to have something with lots of mid range power. I don't race the car but do like to have fun around town. The car is a weekend driver but I want to maintain as much drivability as possible. My current mods are in my sig. I took the car to the dyno about a year ago and came out with 344/355. I'd like to get to somewhere a little north of 425. Here's my dyno sheet: https://ls1tech.com/forums/eastern-m...time-dyno.html
Here is my parts list so far:
- TSP 225 As cast with the Torquer v2. I would go with the 62CC chambers. (http://texas-speed.com/p-3961-precis...m-package.aspx)
- 7.450 pushrods
- Ported LS6 oil pump
- Stock replacement timing chain
- LS7 Lifters
- LS2 Trays
- Underdrive pulley
- Basic gasket kit (includes head gaskets, bolts, water pump gaskets, timing cover seal, front seal and balancer bolt)
- Already have a LS6 Intake and gaskets waiting to go on
I'm left with a few questions:
- Can I reuse the factory rockers? Is it worth getting the comp trunion kit?
- Is there a shim kit needed for the rockers?
- Am I raising or lowering my compression ratio vs stock?
- Do you see any issues doing the swap since the car has 72k on it?
Am I missing anything major or do you guys have any suggestions? Anything else I should change while I'm at it? I have been trying to keep the budget around 3k.
Thanks!
03-27-2013, 08:32 PM
#2
Staging Lane
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Nice build sheet. I've been leaning towards these heads as well but havent pulled the trigger
You can reuse the stock rockers, and from the consensus is to do the comp trunion upgrade.
The only thing I can see that will start to give concern is on the clutch and master cylinder
You can reuse the stock rockers, and from the consensus is to do the comp trunion upgrade.
The only thing I can see that will start to give concern is on the clutch and master cylinder
03-27-2013, 09:33 PM
#3
For a budget build, it's fine. 72k miles is nothing. You'll increase your compression quite a bit. But that's a good thing. Larger cams need more compression for them to run optimally.
Now, for my 2 cents, which is probably worth a whole lot less than that. But, I just don't care for the parts you've listed. Let me explain why to give you a little insight, even though I know it's what like 90% of people run on this forum.
The heads flow well and are a nice piece. They do however have heavier valves and more severe duty springs, which puts more stress on the lifters, rockers, and pushrods. Just wanted to point that out - will it perform? Sure. Will it last a whole bunch of miles without worry? I don't know - it's a crap shoot. Valvefloat is one thing to worry about. But then you have to worry about what sort of stresses you're applying to the valvetrain in order to achieve stability and control a heavier valve.
This leads me to the camshaft. The T2 is a good profile. Probably the best one TSP has to be honest. I just don't care for Comp Cams cores (had QC problems with the hardening process) or XE-R lobes. XE-R aren't as harsh as the LSK lobes, but it is a lobe that beats up a valvetrain. The solution is to throw more spring at it (and the PRC .650s are quite good - just a lot for the stock components). And then you put more stress, mainly, on the lifters, and valve guides/tips/rockers as a result. The alternative is to order a custom ground cam on LSL/LXL/HUC lobes (which TSP will sell you) and that eliminates a lot of the lobe problems since those are more stable and more easily controlled lobes. That would help immensely with the heavier valve as well.
Trunion upgrade - absolutely. Stock rockers are the best option for this car. They are light and strong.
As for the lifters, I've said this for a long time, but LS7 lifters fail when they are put in situations they weren't designed for. Heavy valves and lots of spring pressure with fast lobe ramps are why. I'd look at different lifters if you want to keep that setup, since the valves/springs/XE-R lobes actually work decently together, but you need to consider the rest of the valvetrain. Brian Tooley has SLR lifters which will work a bit better, but still are a step down in comparison to Morels. The LSL/LXL lobes would be easier on the lifters in that setup and would be worth it to me.
Pushrods are fine, but I always try to go as stiff as you can get. I don't think those heads will work with anything over 5/16th tho, so it is what it is.
Oil Pump. Melling 10296 or the GM HV (worked by Synergy or Katech) - you'll actually get more oil through the engine since oil flow is based on volume. Pressure comes from the clearances relative to the flow. The "worked" LS6 pumps add a higher bypass spring for more cold PSI (when the spring opens, the size of the gerotor determines the flow, not the bypass spring). So, I recommend stepping up to the bigger pumps or just a stock LS6 replacement, since you're paying nearly double for a higher pressure bypass spring and the ends "ported" for some flow improvement , but not nearly what the larger pumps provide.
Chain - look at either the IWIS chain that's sold for like $80 or the IWIS C5-R chain for $149. Both would be a big upgrade of the Rolon stock chain. Or something like the JP Performance single row with adjustable billet gears with an upgraded Rolon chain. It's about $90. If you go with a bigger pump, you're really limited to single row chains unless you get the Synergy.
UD Pulley - Powerbond or step up to the ATI.
Now, for my 2 cents, which is probably worth a whole lot less than that. But, I just don't care for the parts you've listed. Let me explain why to give you a little insight, even though I know it's what like 90% of people run on this forum.
The heads flow well and are a nice piece. They do however have heavier valves and more severe duty springs, which puts more stress on the lifters, rockers, and pushrods. Just wanted to point that out - will it perform? Sure. Will it last a whole bunch of miles without worry? I don't know - it's a crap shoot. Valvefloat is one thing to worry about. But then you have to worry about what sort of stresses you're applying to the valvetrain in order to achieve stability and control a heavier valve.
This leads me to the camshaft. The T2 is a good profile. Probably the best one TSP has to be honest. I just don't care for Comp Cams cores (had QC problems with the hardening process) or XE-R lobes. XE-R aren't as harsh as the LSK lobes, but it is a lobe that beats up a valvetrain. The solution is to throw more spring at it (and the PRC .650s are quite good - just a lot for the stock components). And then you put more stress, mainly, on the lifters, and valve guides/tips/rockers as a result. The alternative is to order a custom ground cam on LSL/LXL/HUC lobes (which TSP will sell you) and that eliminates a lot of the lobe problems since those are more stable and more easily controlled lobes. That would help immensely with the heavier valve as well.
Trunion upgrade - absolutely. Stock rockers are the best option for this car. They are light and strong.
As for the lifters, I've said this for a long time, but LS7 lifters fail when they are put in situations they weren't designed for. Heavy valves and lots of spring pressure with fast lobe ramps are why. I'd look at different lifters if you want to keep that setup, since the valves/springs/XE-R lobes actually work decently together, but you need to consider the rest of the valvetrain. Brian Tooley has SLR lifters which will work a bit better, but still are a step down in comparison to Morels. The LSL/LXL lobes would be easier on the lifters in that setup and would be worth it to me.
Pushrods are fine, but I always try to go as stiff as you can get. I don't think those heads will work with anything over 5/16th tho, so it is what it is.
Oil Pump. Melling 10296 or the GM HV (worked by Synergy or Katech) - you'll actually get more oil through the engine since oil flow is based on volume. Pressure comes from the clearances relative to the flow. The "worked" LS6 pumps add a higher bypass spring for more cold PSI (when the spring opens, the size of the gerotor determines the flow, not the bypass spring). So, I recommend stepping up to the bigger pumps or just a stock LS6 replacement, since you're paying nearly double for a higher pressure bypass spring and the ends "ported" for some flow improvement , but not nearly what the larger pumps provide.
Chain - look at either the IWIS chain that's sold for like $80 or the IWIS C5-R chain for $149. Both would be a big upgrade of the Rolon stock chain. Or something like the JP Performance single row with adjustable billet gears with an upgraded Rolon chain. It's about $90. If you go with a bigger pump, you're really limited to single row chains unless you get the Synergy.
UD Pulley - Powerbond or step up to the ATI.
03-27-2013, 10:08 PM
#5
From Ed Curtis, someone who is pretty much shunned here, but knows his ****:
I have an EPS cam. I believe in the EPS lobes for control.
The camshaft lobe design is more important for control.
Many, many times I've used stock or Morel street lifters in relatively high RPM combinations with no problems at all.
Maybe paying more attention to the lobe design and the rest of the valvetrain are more important than worrying about an already high quality part?
Ed
Many, many times I've used stock or Morel street lifters in relatively high RPM combinations with no problems at all.
Maybe paying more attention to the lobe design and the rest of the valvetrain are more important than worrying about an already high quality part?
Ed
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03-31-2013, 08:20 AM
#10
Jake, thanks for taking the time to respond like that!
It sounds like I have a lot more I need to understand before moving forward.
I see what you are saying about the additional stresses on the valvetrain with the heavier valves. What should I be looking for with the valves? I am not dead set on these particular heads. They were the ones that were recommended for my goals listed above. Would it be worth looking into lighter valves with these same heads?
I will do a little more reading regarding the cam, cores and lobes. I have to admit I don't know much about them. This is part of the reason I was thinking I should go with a cam like the T2, there are lots of good results listed on the forums from people running them.
Check on the Trunion upgrade. I thought that was the answer I'd get but wanted to ask to verify.
I get what you are saying regarding the oil pump and timing chain. The melling pump is actually less money so I'll probably just switch to that. The IWIS chain also makes sense and doesn't add that much to the budget.
I looked into the morel lifters you mentioned and they are quite a bit more than what I budgeted for. Would something like the Lunati Solid Rollers work better than the LS7 lifters? If the valves get lighter, would the LS7 lifters would be a good option at that point or should I get a replacement set of stock ones?
It sounds like I have a lot more I need to understand before moving forward.
I see what you are saying about the additional stresses on the valvetrain with the heavier valves. What should I be looking for with the valves? I am not dead set on these particular heads. They were the ones that were recommended for my goals listed above. Would it be worth looking into lighter valves with these same heads?
I will do a little more reading regarding the cam, cores and lobes. I have to admit I don't know much about them. This is part of the reason I was thinking I should go with a cam like the T2, there are lots of good results listed on the forums from people running them.
Check on the Trunion upgrade. I thought that was the answer I'd get but wanted to ask to verify.
I get what you are saying regarding the oil pump and timing chain. The melling pump is actually less money so I'll probably just switch to that. The IWIS chain also makes sense and doesn't add that much to the budget.
I looked into the morel lifters you mentioned and they are quite a bit more than what I budgeted for. Would something like the Lunati Solid Rollers work better than the LS7 lifters? If the valves get lighter, would the LS7 lifters would be a good option at that point or should I get a replacement set of stock ones?
