To cam or not to cam.
12-15-2013, 09:55 AM
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To cam or not to cam. Hi all. I know there are many many threads about camshaft decisions. I have been through many and I haven't really found one that pertains to what I have in mind, so I figured to ask.
I have a 2000 Trans Am non-ws6 car. Stock 853 heads and internals. 1 3/4 to 3" headers, 3" Y-pipe to the factory over-axle and a Magnaflow muffler and tips.
130k miles, nothing has been changed internally from my knowledge.
I am looking to put either a camshaft in the car, with the beehive springs, or go for the 243 heads, not sure which to do first, and what would net me more horsepower per dollar. I daily drive the car around base, and do not take it to the track. I want a camshaft that would provide good mid range power up to 6000 rpm. I'm not looking to take the car over 6000 because of the age and mileage of the motor. I do not want an extremely high lift, or any other number that would seriously reduce mpg. I can take and expect a drop in gas mileage for the sake of horsepower, but 8 MPG will not do. I want to keep the factory geometry of the heads. When/if I go to the 243's, I wan to try for the same push rod length, same valve size, and replace with factory rockers with another set of stamped steel non-adjustable ones. Basically I'm trying to drop in springs and a cam, or heads then a cam, without much other modification.
Also to note, I do run my own HPTuners programming, so I can tune for camshaft changes.
In summary, Camshaft or heads? What to upgrade with the camshaft? What camshaft for my application?
I have a 2000 Trans Am non-ws6 car. Stock 853 heads and internals. 1 3/4 to 3" headers, 3" Y-pipe to the factory over-axle and a Magnaflow muffler and tips.
130k miles, nothing has been changed internally from my knowledge.
I am looking to put either a camshaft in the car, with the beehive springs, or go for the 243 heads, not sure which to do first, and what would net me more horsepower per dollar. I daily drive the car around base, and do not take it to the track. I want a camshaft that would provide good mid range power up to 6000 rpm. I'm not looking to take the car over 6000 because of the age and mileage of the motor. I do not want an extremely high lift, or any other number that would seriously reduce mpg. I can take and expect a drop in gas mileage for the sake of horsepower, but 8 MPG will not do. I want to keep the factory geometry of the heads. When/if I go to the 243's, I wan to try for the same push rod length, same valve size, and replace with factory rockers with another set of stamped steel non-adjustable ones. Basically I'm trying to drop in springs and a cam, or heads then a cam, without much other modification.
Also to note, I do run my own HPTuners programming, so I can tune for camshaft changes.
In summary, Camshaft or heads? What to upgrade with the camshaft? What camshaft for my application?
12-15-2013, 10:08 AM
#2
I'd look into something like a tr230/228. It works great with stock heads and has good power through out the rpm range so you do not have to spin it to 6000+ just to make power
12-15-2013, 10:11 AM
#3
Is price an issue? It's going to cost slot more to do a cam with supporting mods then to do a set of heads... but if you do heads your right there might as well change cam and lifters and lifter tray while your at it.
12-15-2013, 01:14 PM
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Mods are in sig. I think you would enjoy the 224/228 @112, it's not a huge cam, but it makes great power up to 6500 rpm. Cost me 1300 for everything including the dyno tune. I would say I gained 1 mpg on the highway and lost maybe 1-2 in the city.
To answer your question, Yes, Cam the car and don't look back!
EDIT:
I forgot to add I made 358 to the wheels before the cam on a DynoJet
To answer your question, Yes, Cam the car and don't look back!
EDIT:
I forgot to add I made 358 to the wheels before the cam on a DynoJet
12-15-2013, 02:04 PM
#6
No way in hell do you want a 230degree cam if you want to keep it to a 6000rpm limit.
Have you considered stall and gears or just gears if M6?
Where are you finding stamped steel rockers for an LS1? and why would you be looking to replace the existing ones, trunnion upgrade sure, replace not so much unless just buying something a vendor rebuilt with a trunnion upgrade.
Back to the cam, now granted the LS6 has better heads and intake than you have but you have headers so let's call that a peak rpm net wash and ignore all that for the sake of discussion.
A quick googling shows the stock LS6 peaks at 6000rpm and has a factory rev limit of 6600rpm, and that cam is only 204egrees on the intake.
Now think about your low self imposed rpm limit and the absurdity of someone recommending 230degrees. Then another poster posts about a 224 degree cam making good power to 6500rpm backing up the fact 230degrees for 6000rpm limit is absurd.
For a cam to work to full effect you need to rev several hundred rpm past peak so you use the whole top of the hp curve not just the uphill part and to keep the engine in the powerband after the shift.
So basically with a self imposed 6000rpm limit a stock LS6 cam is too big. Hell best I can find the stock LS1 peaks at 5800 and has a 6200rpm rev limit.
So maybe internal engine mods be they heads or cam are NOT for you at this point and you should take this as a good lesson on being careful who you listen to when you ask for ideas.
Have you considered stall and gears or just gears if M6?
Where are you finding stamped steel rockers for an LS1? and why would you be looking to replace the existing ones, trunnion upgrade sure, replace not so much unless just buying something a vendor rebuilt with a trunnion upgrade.
Back to the cam, now granted the LS6 has better heads and intake than you have but you have headers so let's call that a peak rpm net wash and ignore all that for the sake of discussion.
A quick googling shows the stock LS6 peaks at 6000rpm and has a factory rev limit of 6600rpm, and that cam is only 204egrees on the intake.
Now think about your low self imposed rpm limit and the absurdity of someone recommending 230degrees. Then another poster posts about a 224 degree cam making good power to 6500rpm backing up the fact 230degrees for 6000rpm limit is absurd.
For a cam to work to full effect you need to rev several hundred rpm past peak so you use the whole top of the hp curve not just the uphill part and to keep the engine in the powerband after the shift.
So basically with a self imposed 6000rpm limit a stock LS6 cam is too big. Hell best I can find the stock LS1 peaks at 5800 and has a 6200rpm rev limit.
So maybe internal engine mods be they heads or cam are NOT for you at this point and you should take this as a good lesson on being careful who you listen to when you ask for ideas.
12-15-2013, 02:43 PM
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No way in hell do you want a 230degree cam if you want to keep it to a 6000rpm limit.
Have you considered stall and gears or just gears if M6?
Where are you finding stamped steel rockers for an LS1? and why would you be looking to replace the existing ones, trunnion upgrade sure, replace not so much unless just buying something a vendor rebuilt with a trunnion upgrade.
Back to the cam, now granted the LS6 has better heads and intake than you have but you have headers so let's call that a peak rpm net wash and ignore all that for the sake of discussion.
A quick googling shows the stock LS6 peaks at 6000rpm and has a factory rev limit of 6600rpm, and that cam is only 204egrees on the intake.
Now think about your low self imposed rpm limit and the absurdity of someone recommending 230degrees. Then another poster posts about a 224 degree cam making good power to 6500rpm backing up the fact 230degrees for 6000rpm limit is absurd.
For a cam to work to full effect you need to rev several hundred rpm past peak so you use the whole top of the hp curve not just the uphill part and to keep the engine in the powerband after the shift.
So basically with a self imposed 6000rpm limit a stock LS6 cam is too big. Hell best I can find the stock LS1 peaks at 5800 and has a 6200rpm rev limit.
So maybe internal engine mods be they heads or cam are NOT for you at this point and you should take this as a good lesson on being careful who you listen to when you ask for ideas.
Have you considered stall and gears or just gears if M6?
Where are you finding stamped steel rockers for an LS1? and why would you be looking to replace the existing ones, trunnion upgrade sure, replace not so much unless just buying something a vendor rebuilt with a trunnion upgrade.
Back to the cam, now granted the LS6 has better heads and intake than you have but you have headers so let's call that a peak rpm net wash and ignore all that for the sake of discussion.
A quick googling shows the stock LS6 peaks at 6000rpm and has a factory rev limit of 6600rpm, and that cam is only 204egrees on the intake.
Now think about your low self imposed rpm limit and the absurdity of someone recommending 230degrees. Then another poster posts about a 224 degree cam making good power to 6500rpm backing up the fact 230degrees for 6000rpm limit is absurd.
For a cam to work to full effect you need to rev several hundred rpm past peak so you use the whole top of the hp curve not just the uphill part and to keep the engine in the powerband after the shift.
So basically with a self imposed 6000rpm limit a stock LS6 cam is too big. Hell best I can find the stock LS1 peaks at 5800 and has a 6200rpm rev limit.
So maybe internal engine mods be they heads or cam are NOT for you at this point and you should take this as a good lesson on being careful who you listen to when you ask for ideas.
I kinda agree with this. OP it's all about how much money you want to spend and your goals. With a small enough cam, you can get away with MOST of your stock supporting mods. If it were me in your shoes I'd say get a cam in the 220degree range. Check out videos of the 224r @ 114 LSA. Makes decent power and drivability is like stock.
Once again, its all about your goals. You don't want to spend money twice, so think ahead of what you will be doing down the road.
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12-15-2013, 05:37 PM
#8
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Money I'm looking for about a grand total for a cam swap, around 500 for a pair of 243's without springs. Goals are a daily driven car with street potential. There's good information here. I have a friend that can get my all the stock LS parts I'm looking for. I figured rockers would be a good idea to replace while I'm there along with the push rods. I'm staying under 450 horsepower for my application. Stall I'm planning to match my TC to my camshaft, gears are stock 3.23's. I will not touch the factory pumpkin until I've thrown the ring gear through the cover, then I will replace. The 224r sounds healthy, and has decent numbers. While doing a camshaft, what parts need to go besides a stall? Timing chain and oil pump? Sprockets? I hear a lot of flabber about that.
12-15-2013, 05:57 PM
#9
A trunnion upgrade is pretty much the ticket with stock rockers. This isn't a gen 1 or gen 2 motor where the stock rockers are the first internal part that gets swapped.
Far as "matching stall to cam", stock cars like as much stall as most are willing to drive on the street, get a stall up in the 3400 range and enjoy and don't stress over it too much beyond that.
Far as "matching stall to cam", stock cars like as much stall as most are willing to drive on the street, get a stall up in the 3400 range and enjoy and don't stress over it too much beyond that.
12-15-2013, 06:00 PM
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Money I'm looking for about a grand total for a cam swap, around 500 for a pair of 243's without springs. Goals are a daily driven car with street potential. There's good information here. I have a friend that can get my all the stock LS parts I'm looking for. I figured rockers would be a good idea to replace while I'm there along with the push rods. I'm staying under 450 horsepower for my application. Stall I'm planning to match my TC to my camshaft, gears are stock 3.23's. I will not touch the factory pumpkin until I've thrown the ring gear through the cover, then I will replace. The 224r sounds healthy, and has decent numbers. While doing a camshaft, what parts need to go besides a stall? Timing chain and oil pump? Sprockets? I hear a lot of flabber about that.
12-15-2013, 09:30 PM
#12
For a cam look at the Com Motion #C33-603 (220/224 112lsa+4, lift .578"/.578") should make peak power by 6k, with having a IVC of 38, and -2* overlap. If you want to go any larger on the intake duration then you want to go with a lower LSA to keep the IVC down. For example with a 224/224 you would need to go with a 110 lsa +4 to keep the peak power to about the same rpm as the 220/224 112lsa+4.
A 224/224 110lsa+4(4* overlap) would be the largest I'd suggest going with.
A 224/224 110lsa+4(4* overlap) would be the largest I'd suggest going with.
Last edited by 99Bluz28; 12-15-2013 at 09:55 PM.
12-16-2013, 06:42 AM
#14
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Appreciating the info. I'm starting to move into the 224r territory, looking at cams with similar lift and keeping a 112-114 LSA. I like the ease of use with factory parts and the numbers.
12-16-2013, 05:03 PM
#15
IMO, any cam with a IVC of 34 to 38, within the size range of 212/218 up to 224/224 should work good for his intended usage.
Last edited by 99Bluz28; 12-16-2013 at 05:09 PM.