AFR 62 cc 225 UPDATE....
03-03-2005, 07:23 PM
#1
AFR 62 cc 225 UPDATE.... OK Guys...
Here comes the bad news....please don't throw fruit at me
Bottom line, all of engineering's recent efforts have been re-directed towards getting three more CNC porting machines on the floor, set-up, fixtured, and up and running. That means that the completion of the small chamber 225 heads has been put on hold temporarily until the new machines are cutting aluminum and spitting out parts.
The management of AFR has determined that with our current lead times increasing to almost eight weeks on our entire product line, it was more important to focus engineering's efforts to help us with our backlog of orders and try to reduce lead times significantly in the months to come. Spending time to finish the 62 cc 225's would have aggravated that situation even more, and as much as I am disappointed myself, I know it was the right move for the company.
Adding three more porting machines represents a significant increase in our manufacturing capacity and will definately help reduce our lead time in the months to come. As far as when the 225 program (62 cc) will be finished, I hate to venture a guess but I would hope to see it completed in the next 60 days or so. I will keep you updated regarding this situation as events unfold over the following weeks....If the machine installations go smoothly, we might be running them sooner than that, but once again, I don't want to promise or give false hope because you never know if things won't go smoothly. One thing is for sure, we are commiteed to getting the small chamber 225 program completed as quickly as possible and it IS a priority.
I've always been straight with you guys and unfortunately this is just the way it is. I've tried to give you guys a first hand glimpse into AFR's products, theory on airflow and power production, some R&D information, and have tried to keep you updated on our new product development and timeline for over a year now....unfortunately this is news nobody wanted to see, myself included.
By the way, you still CAN run the 225's on a stock displacement engine if you were willing to swap out pistons and go with aftermarket pistons with a positive dome volume (small pop-up piston). I have a few guys buying the 225 72 cc chambers and running a domed piston with their set-up and the math works out great. (And before anyone starts belly-aching about flame travel etc., a small block dome thats 10 cc's or so is not a huge tall ugly dome like you might find on some small cubic inch BBC motors that are trying to achieve higher compression).
A piston that has a positive dome volume of 10 cc's (including the valve reliefs) would give you exactly 11.21 CR (perfect!) with an .040 gasket and the piston .007 out of the hole, and a 72 cc 225 right out of the box....want a little more, then go head and mill the head a little....not to mention you would have a TON of piston to valve with that set-up as well. Not a bad deal if you were committed to an aftermarket piston anyway or would now consider it. Keep in mind, the 225's on a stock displacement engine will really want to make power at high RPM"s as the higher flowing larger head continues to effectively fill the cylinders....a swap to stronger pistons and perhaps better rods (or at least rod bolts) is certainly a move worth considering.
I know I am....
Regards to all,
Tony M.
Here comes the bad news....please don't throw fruit at me
Bottom line, all of engineering's recent efforts have been re-directed towards getting three more CNC porting machines on the floor, set-up, fixtured, and up and running. That means that the completion of the small chamber 225 heads has been put on hold temporarily until the new machines are cutting aluminum and spitting out parts.
The management of AFR has determined that with our current lead times increasing to almost eight weeks on our entire product line, it was more important to focus engineering's efforts to help us with our backlog of orders and try to reduce lead times significantly in the months to come. Spending time to finish the 62 cc 225's would have aggravated that situation even more, and as much as I am disappointed myself, I know it was the right move for the company.
Adding three more porting machines represents a significant increase in our manufacturing capacity and will definately help reduce our lead time in the months to come. As far as when the 225 program (62 cc) will be finished, I hate to venture a guess but I would hope to see it completed in the next 60 days or so. I will keep you updated regarding this situation as events unfold over the following weeks....If the machine installations go smoothly, we might be running them sooner than that, but once again, I don't want to promise or give false hope because you never know if things won't go smoothly. One thing is for sure, we are commiteed to getting the small chamber 225 program completed as quickly as possible and it IS a priority.
I've always been straight with you guys and unfortunately this is just the way it is. I've tried to give you guys a first hand glimpse into AFR's products, theory on airflow and power production, some R&D information, and have tried to keep you updated on our new product development and timeline for over a year now....unfortunately this is news nobody wanted to see, myself included.
By the way, you still CAN run the 225's on a stock displacement engine if you were willing to swap out pistons and go with aftermarket pistons with a positive dome volume (small pop-up piston). I have a few guys buying the 225 72 cc chambers and running a domed piston with their set-up and the math works out great. (And before anyone starts belly-aching about flame travel etc., a small block dome thats 10 cc's or so is not a huge tall ugly dome like you might find on some small cubic inch BBC motors that are trying to achieve higher compression).
A piston that has a positive dome volume of 10 cc's (including the valve reliefs) would give you exactly 11.21 CR (perfect!) with an .040 gasket and the piston .007 out of the hole, and a 72 cc 225 right out of the box....want a little more, then go head and mill the head a little....not to mention you would have a TON of piston to valve with that set-up as well. Not a bad deal if you were committed to an aftermarket piston anyway or would now consider it. Keep in mind, the 225's on a stock displacement engine will really want to make power at high RPM"s as the higher flowing larger head continues to effectively fill the cylinders....a swap to stronger pistons and perhaps better rods (or at least rod bolts) is certainly a move worth considering.
I know I am....
Regards to all,
Tony M.
03-03-2005, 07:33 PM
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That's understandable to me! I am waiting on em and money too.... so I plan on some in the future... hopefully by the end of the summer!
Do you guys offer a full or staged type of cnc port on the AFR heads? I thought about having a set sent to the guy that does FMS' work and have them hogged(topping of a big cube 6.0 and wanting a solid roller).
Josh S.
Do you guys offer a full or staged type of cnc port on the AFR heads? I thought about having a set sent to the guy that does FMS' work and have them hogged(topping of a big cube 6.0 and wanting a solid roller).
Josh S.
03-03-2005, 07:46 PM
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I know that is putting off the the 225 on delay but i think it is a good move for the company. Yall will be able to produce more produces in a shorter amout of time. And the wait will shorten to get the heads.
03-03-2005, 07:50 PM
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Tony,
Do you see a problem with milling these heads .050" or 0.060"?
With a 10cc dome I will need a 62 to 64 cc chamber to acheive the compression and quench I want.
62cc will put me right where I want to be with that dome volume.
This is on a stock displacement shortblock.
Also would like to know if you have a solid roller "Package" availible yet
IE: 1.550" springs n +.100" Valves
If so I will be getting the 72cc 225 VERY SOON
Thanks!!!!!
Brad
Do you see a problem with milling these heads .050" or 0.060"?
With a 10cc dome I will need a 62 to 64 cc chamber to acheive the compression and quench I want.
62cc will put me right where I want to be with that dome volume.
This is on a stock displacement shortblock.
Also would like to know if you have a solid roller "Package" availible yet
IE: 1.550" springs n +.100" Valves
If so I will be getting the 72cc 225 VERY SOON
Thanks!!!!!
Brad
03-03-2005, 08:12 PM
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So a 10cc dome with the 72cc heads will net the same compression as the 62cc?
And there is no way to get ~11:1 compression and run a decent sized cam (230ish) without either flycutting or getting new pistons? With either the 72cc or 62cc heads?
Tony, you have gone out of your way to explain everything and to show that you are truly trying to create a set of heads with great overall power for 99% of users. What I don't understand is, most people want to bolt on a set of heads like these and achieve big power without having to change other internals like pistons, or go to the extent of flycutting pistons. Why would you make heads for 99% of enthusiasts (which you said in a different post), if it requires flycutting or new pistons? I know there is the option of the 205's, but you specifically said the 225's are made for the majority of people (not people with rediculous setups with extreme lift cams and stuff).
Can you explain?
Sorry, I don't mean to sound bad. I really respect you, and I might buy a set of heads from you in the future. However, I just want this cleared up.
Sorry if this is the wrong place to discuss. Thanks Tony.
And there is no way to get ~11:1 compression and run a decent sized cam (230ish) without either flycutting or getting new pistons? With either the 72cc or 62cc heads?
Tony, you have gone out of your way to explain everything and to show that you are truly trying to create a set of heads with great overall power for 99% of users. What I don't understand is, most people want to bolt on a set of heads like these and achieve big power without having to change other internals like pistons, or go to the extent of flycutting pistons. Why would you make heads for 99% of enthusiasts (which you said in a different post), if it requires flycutting or new pistons? I know there is the option of the 205's, but you specifically said the 225's are made for the majority of people (not people with rediculous setups with extreme lift cams and stuff).
Can you explain?
Sorry, I don't mean to sound bad. I really respect you, and I might buy a set of heads from you in the future. However, I just want this cleared up.
Sorry if this is the wrong place to discuss. Thanks Tony.
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03-03-2005, 08:17 PM
#8
Originally Posted by Squintz Palladoris
Tony,
Do you see a problem with milling these heads .050" or 0.060"?
Do you see a problem with milling these heads .050" or 0.060"?
03-03-2005, 08:32 PM
#10
Originally Posted by matts22
Why would you make heads for 99% of enthusiasts (which you said in a different post), if it requires flycutting or new pistons? I know there is the option of the 205's, but you specifically said the 225's are made for the majority of people (not people with rediculous setups with extreme lift cams and stuff)
205's are the "bolt on" no hassle cylinder head that will provide stellar results when care is taken in assembly and the right combination of parts come together with the right tune. I think the results that continue to roll thru here can ultimately attest to that.
The 225's are for 99% of the enthusiast's who want that EXTRA to seperate them from the rest of the pack. A 62cc (or smaller) head with the RIGHT shape combustion chamber and a 2.080 valve will simply not give you enough P to V to clear the "typical" larger cam a 225 guy wants to install. Thats just the way it is so it requires flycutting or notched aftermarket pistons. This isnt a situation with just AFR...its a very general situation and must be accepted.
I could explain it to you if you were standing next to me and we were looking at a combustion chamber and I could point out how and why, but trying to do it over the internet just wont cut it. TRUST me....it cant be done.
You want big power and no hassles....buy the 205's....You want to be the fastest in your neighborhood, buy the 225's....and deal with the extra BS thats involved with a proper installation.
TM
03-03-2005, 08:33 PM
#11
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Sounds like its gona be a while guys.When you start upselling the larger chamber heads you know your in trouble 
Better start cranking out those heads before gm comes out with there new heads. 
Better start cranking out those heads before gm comes out with there new heads. 
03-03-2005, 10:41 PM
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Gee Tony, what a coincidence, the small chamber heads are delayed ,while I am still getting the rest of the combo together~ works great for me 
I will be getting them once they do come out. Keep up the excellent work and providing of information.
Charlie
I will be getting them once they do come out. Keep up the excellent work and providing of information.Charlie
03-04-2005, 04:44 PM
#15
Originally Posted by jrp
interesting, i've already got 6.6 domes and pistons -.013 out the hole, and a cometic .045 gasket. :think:
but by the time im ready the 62's should be readily availabe
but by the time im ready the 62's should be readily availabe
(11.41 CR....sweeeeet)
03-04-2005, 06:30 PM
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Makes perfect sense Tony, plus you'll make suppliers and customers happier with faster turnaround.
Short term pain for long term gain!!
What cc chamber options are available for the 205's? With a stock short how much milling for 11:1?
Short term pain for long term gain!!
What cc chamber options are available for the 205's? With a stock short how much milling for 11:1?
03-04-2005, 08:25 PM
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on a stock cube motor, how will the 225s perform versus the 205s? Decent sized cam, like the X3, and all the usuals with a 90mm?
please give in terms of daily driving too.
Thanks
Louie
please give in terms of daily driving too.
Thanks
Louie
03-05-2005, 01:12 AM
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Originally Posted by half-n-half
on a stock cube motor, how will the 225s perform versus the 205s? Decent sized cam, like the X3, and all the usuals with a 90mm?
please give in terms of daily driving too.
Thanks
Louie
please give in terms of daily driving too.
Thanks
Louie
03-15-2005, 11:30 PM
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damnit I'm about to go crazy here trying to figure out whether to get a bike now or to wait for the small cc 225's and a big solid roller!!!!!!!!! damnit damnit damnit damnit damnit!!!!!
