LiqTenExp

Hey,
I have a 2004 GTO that TTP has installed an Ed Curtis small cam and a few weeks later some milled AFR 205cc. So far the power isn't there that I expected. The heads were milled .030 and the pushrods he suggested were still the stock size of 7.4". The ones that were in there from the cam install were engineworks 4130s and had little mileage on them so they left them in. The car barely made 17hp/10tq. It was very quiet upfront compared to the same setup with the stock heads and we went to 7.35" 3 piece that Ed supplied, they didn't appear to be hardened though. We gained tons of tq and hp below 5200 rpm about 12-18 ft-lbs and 10 hp or so. Once the hp curve hits mid 5k range it flatlines(literally perfectly flat) out to 6700 rpm and doesn't even drop at all. It is prefectly flat which is weird. It maxes out around 390 ft-lbs which is exactly what others with a similar setup make but only like 391 hp. Tomorrow we are going to hopefully try stronger 1 piece chromoly pushrods of the same length. Any ideas???????

PREDATOR-Z

What is your lifter preload???

LiqTenExp

I talked to one of the guys who runs another one of FTIs cams and he said it should be .030 cold. Thats one of the things were checking today. Also I think he's running me too rich and too much timing up top. I think right now he might be trying to be safe but 12.9 is too rich especially for AFRs alot have been saying. It was suggested to me by Anthony (Bone over at ls1gto.com) to run no more than about 25 degrees timing and about 13.2-13.4 a/f up top and rich like it is at the bottom for good torque. So maybe just before we start loosing power we should start leaning it out more and limiting the timing.

Patrick G

iTrader: (14)

You will probably not see much in the way of power gains leaning the mixture from 12.9 to 13.2-13.4. Both are in the ballpark for maximum power. 25-26 degrees of timing is about right for milled AFR 205s. That's how the timing is on mine. Expect little gains from tuning. I would look at the valvetrain.

What are the cam specs and more specifically, what is the installed intake centerline? You may have a cam that's too far advanced. The fact that you have tons of torque down low, but very little power gain up high suggests a cam with too much advance.

LiqTenExp

the cam is straight up, before the heads it made 383/372 with LT headers and intake work. So I don't think there is an issue with the cam more with springs and lifters.

PREDATOR-Z

You know, it may sem stupid not knowing the cam specs, but there has been instances where the cam simply doesn't match the heads.
I've seen this with my cam 224/220 .581/.581 116 lsa+0 advance. Where it was run with AFR's and didn't net the expected HP's other 224 cam ran.

Mirek

I kept the 7.4's I already had. w/the AFR's milled .30 & a .045 cometics.

This was specifically what Louis (LGM) recommended to run in a PM to me on another board....or was it this one..? There is something with the AFR's where the 7.4 and 22ft lbs is prefered to the 7.35 even with the milling. Usually vendors have to tell you to measure and its obviously the best thing to do but Louis also mentioned these particular motors were quiter. There is a vendor that also calls this out on their homepage....I'll don't recall which. You can do alot of searching on exactly this, I know I did.
I'm running 28.5 degrees and a 12.8 AFR BTW.....

TTPMatt

iTrader: (18)

I would not run the A/F to 13.2-13.4 on the dyno. Then you'll have to account for around .5 difference vs the street and that is almost 14.0. We only do this 6 days a week for a living, but there is always someone that knows more than you on the forums... We have run anywhere from 24-28 deg of timing in tuning and it has had no effect. I will turn down the timing a bit today when we get a set of real pushrods in the motor. We have no knowledge of the valvesprings, installed height, seat pressure, etc.

This is a perfect reason of why most shops don't install customer provided parts. I want to help Brad out in anyway I can, but I can't eat labor because someone else put together poor components and didn't do their homework on valvetrain geometry.

Mirek: When we swapped over to the 7.350's the preload was acceptable on the two valves we checked (intake/exhaust). The car made another 18 ft lbs of tq in the low end, but the top end something is going on. The person who provided the parts gave us a 3 piece non-hardened pushrod to put in, which I don't believe in using but they are in there. We are going to swap in a 7.350 hardened pushrod and check the preload on every single valve.

PREDATOR-Z

This is Tony's comments on the cams and AFR's:

So what are your cam specs?? .050 specs will tell us squat anyways (in case you are worried we will copy)

SPANKY LS1

iTrader: (24)

What lifters are you using, OEM or Comp Rs? If Comp Rs, I agree to check and double check your preload, they are extremely finicky to get set up just right, and if off a little bit, they can really screw with your numbers.

Lastly, if you can't get anywhere, I would then try a more proven cam. The 224/228 cam that AFR uses is a proven cam with this setup. Despite the hype so called "shelf" cams sometimes do work well. Head and cam setups need to be a package. AFR spent a TON of time engineering this package, and it has been proven time and time again that other (similarly sized) cams usually fall short.

Good luck and keep us posted, Shawn

LiqTenExp

I call victory!

Ok so I was hoping for 30hp/20 ft-lbs. I got 20/30 Close enough? Final numbers were 2 back to back 400/400 runs.

I would like to thank all the guys a TTP for dealing with this car. Matt took his time to make sure it came out safe and what I had expected. Even with a pushrod swap stuck inbetween tuning. Also Ed Curtis for sending me out a shorter pair of pushrods as quickly as he did. Also Anthony (Bone) for showing me some of his timing tables to get an idea of where other people were with this cam.

The lifters are stock.

PREDATOR-Z

Hmm Congrat. So it was a preload issue (partly)
But that is small HP for a cam with AFR on M6 car. I got more than that cam only on A4.
404/383
Must be a really tame cam similar to TR Cheater.

LiqTenExp

220/225 cam. It came down to pushrod length and tuning.

PREDATOR-Z

If you have non adjustable rockers, p-rod length is what determines your lifter preload.

Sport Side

iTrader: (6)

Would you happen to have the new dyno graph? I have your old graph saved with the FTI camshaft & stock heads. Just looking to compare.

Ed, if you are reading this, how would the cam profile change with the addition of the 205s? I'm guessing the goals/setup stayed the same. I'm wondering how much power there is to be had with one of your sticks designed around the new heads. Something similar to Anthony's results, perhaps?

LiqTenExp

Matt @ TTP should be emailing it to me sometime this week when he gets a chance.

V6 Bird

iTrader: (15)

Im gonna say its one tooth off from being installed DOT to DOT...Or valvetrain PR lenght is off...


NOTE*
Just read down alittle further and saw i was right...cool deal that you guys found it.

Ed Curtis

If you had any concerns or questions on these heads, why didn't you call? You have my number and Email address and I do respond quickly when there are concerns or issues...
I really did not expect this type of negative comment from you Matt but it's here, and I feel it needs addressing...

I sent customers to you with the impression that they will receive good, quality service. I do this with quite a few shops and a few knowledgable individuals all over the country and it works out quite well.

After this post from you, I now will have to search for another shop to send my customers to. Someone who can handle this type of work.
TTP as the installer MUST check everything. This includes degreeing the camshaft, checking valvetrain geometry and of course, piston to valve clearances. As a matter of fact, the "Cam Card" I provided states very clearly...

"Verify valvetrain geometry. It is critical for the best performance of this profile"

If you feel you are not required to pay close attention to these kinds of details because you did not sell the products, then refuse to do this kind of install and allow other shops/individuals to perform the service.

When I spoke to you personally about the valvetrain and lifter pre-load and you have no idea what it was in this engine. This is not the response I expected from TTP.

I just find it hard to believe that your shop is now becoming just another "bolt-on" facility like the one you mentioned to me that you were so busy doing a lot of "rework" to their customer's cars. You really made it appear that you were above that "other" shop's mentality and could perform anything that needed to be done without an agenda.

You know, I would not be so upset with this whole deal had it not been for this jab you took at me for the comment... "didn't do their homework on valvetrain geometry" when it's totally up to the installer to verify this. This was a deliberate slam of what I provided and an attempt to shift blame.

Answer me this Matt.

Why are you blaming others for your shop's lack of attention to detail?

You confirmed this by stating you had no idea of what shape the valvetrain geometry was in nor what the amount of lifter preload there was.

Why do you feel that your shop should not "eat the labor" for not doing the job correctly the first time?

As the installer, you "are" responsible for doing any rework due to an error on your part. I responded to your request for a shorter push rod ASAP when we spoke on the phone. It's called customer service.
The "three piece" push rods in question are from Manton pushrods and of extremely high quality and not some off shore imported parts like others use.

This type of three piece push rod is the kind that can be used in shaft rocker or non-guide plate application, solid and hydraulic roller. The push rod design is NOT one of the "poor components" as you speak of and can handle more load than some of the imported hardened one-piece crap that I've seen used by many shops.

If you still "don't believe in using" this type of design, and you need a lesson in push rod design, I suggest you get off the computer and call Terry Manton. He'll set you straight about your incorrect opinion about these push rods!
Hmm...

Check the preload in every single valve...

Isn't this what "should have" been done done the first install? Whatever...

Matt, I am very disappointed in the whole deal with you. I thought we had some kind of repore. My bad. I was wrong. Since you feel I provided "poor components and didn't do their homework on valvetrain geometry." I will never send a single soul to you for work ever again.

There are other shops and individuals who I "can" work with and have no problems at all installing these packages. Now I know...

And by the way Matt, while you're on this thread... you should publically thank Anthony (Bone) for bailing you out with his "telephone tune" to get Brad's car up and running...

People should know about that too!

Ed

Brian Tooley Racing

iTrader: (13)

Manton? Very nice stuff!

When I saw his post I thought he was talking about some kind of friction welded tip ends.

Is this the restrictor type design?

How much do those cost?

I know the type I usually buy from Manton are the single taper drag race stuff that cost $320 A SET of 16!!

BTW, the ones we sell for LS1 use come from TFS, they are the same as Comp, made by Trend in Michigan, .080" wall, one piece, chromoly. We have used these in applications all the way up to .700" lift solid roller, of course I don't reccommend that type of use. They are certainly more then adequate for .6XX" hydraulic roller.

TTPMatt

iTrader: (18)

That's funny, as I know you can't handle this work either. You know what I mean.

On customer provided parts, as told to the customer, we do not check anything everything is installed as part of a package. Funny thing is, we've had numerous packages from LG Motorsports (G5X cam + spring packages), A&A Corvette (S/C packages), numerous other companies and everyone I have not had to check their research on. For some reason their "package" just bolts right up (What a concept!). That is the reason why you sell someone a package. YOU recommended a pieced together package, he bought all components from you and you should have known what works and what doesn't work. If not you should have warned him that you had no clue these components will or will not work together.

Oh and here's some other funny facts. My cam only combinations have made more power than your heads/cam cars.





Oh and I must not know how to install components or tune my packages since we hold the N/A 346ci heads/cam record through a 9" ford, 35 spline axles.