ScreaminDemon

Just how far should the sleeves stick out on a wet sleeved block? Why does Lingenfelter, MTI, More performance, etc., say no more than 2/1000th's or the heads won't seal and you'll end up with water in the cylinder, and Darton East says that 5/1000th's is just fine? Why did water leak onto the floor from my head after I only filled the radiator? That did stop after the it heat cycled though. Why did my newly built 427 go 160 miles babying it around and then when I get on the dyno at Thunderacing and floor it I get water in the cylinder and spin a main bearing? Darton East has my engine right now, but aren't admitting any mistake. They are saying right now that one of my head studs won't torque down past 50ft/pds, and that the block threads have gotten soft. Well, if a piston was trying to compress water, wouldn't that try to pull the head off?!! This has messed up a Lunati crank and 2 pro billet rods, as well as a Darton sleeve. Now I have to bore it a 4.155 and buy bigger pistons. I think I'm going to need a lawyer when this is over. Anybody got opinions??????

777

iTrader: (21)

They screwed up. Sounds to me like they forgot to put the head gasket on I'm sure they aren't that stupid though. I hope everything gets settled. If you have to pay $1 then I'd start suing someone cause that's messed up.

Scalpel

iTrader: (4)

Why would fire up the car if coolant poured from the head with only filling the radiator?

Did you install the heads?

strokedls1

iTrader: (1)

^ I was thinking the same thing. If coolant was leaking before firing it there was a problem. I think .005 is too much. Are you using a cometic gasket? I hope they warranty the damage.

DONAIMIAN

iTrader: (18)

I agree with what MTI told you. Theyve been doing big bore LS1 blocks for how long now, and if it was a problem before you fired it up I would have just stopped messing with it and started making phone calls.

calongo_SS

iTrader: (7)

Nobody can really say who screwed up until we know this...

6spdpewterZ

damn it sounds expensive...

Mike Norris

iTrader: (10)

Who actually did the sleeve install and when? Was the block a brand new unit or seasoned and/or heat cycled? Just wondering as the original procedure as well as using a new block seems to lead to issues.

Mike Norris

ScreaminDemon

Me and a friend built the engine, used the correct cometic gaskets and tq spec suggested by Cartek and all went smoothly. I called Darton after the initial leak at #3 cylinder and they assured me that the block had been decked, but had said at 3/1000th's. .Darton East preassembled the rotating assembly for any clearancing issues and installed ARP main caps. I changed the oil 3 times within one week of babying it to work to get a few miles on it pry to trailering it down to Thunderacing for dyno tuning. The 1st day at Thunder (nice guys) was spent riding around tuning for city driving and idle, the 2nd day was spent doing dyno pulls and then the engine locked up. On dissassembly I notice my radiator was almost empty! Where did the water go, there was nothing on the floor? I spun a main bearing at #2 cylinder, ruined a piston and sleeve, and have 2 blue Lunati Pro Billet rods. A local machine shop micked the sleeves on my block and all are 5/1000th's out. Darton says that this wasn't the problem, though all other tuners say otherwise. If we did anything wrong during our meticulus assembly, it woundn't of lasted 160 miles before doing this. Darton has only agreed to bore the sleeves out bigger (4.155) and deck the block to 2/1000's. I'm having to spend another $2500 for everything else, pistons, 2 more rods, turn the crank, bearings, new gaskets, shipping the engine. I've decided to let them assemble it this time just so they will take some kind of responsibility. Who know's what they will charge me for that. I may be getting written depositions from all involved soon as it is rebuilt, they should do more for me than this.

Scalpel

iTrader: (4)

So how is this Eastside's fault?

What did they do that would have caused your block to leak?

They assembled the bottom end with just a pre-assembly according to your testimony.

You assembled the majority of the motor. You also fired up an engine that poured coolant out with a simple filling of the radiator. You're lucky it lasted as long as it did. I don't see any business/vendor at fault here. You took a chance of assembling a motor yourself and it obviously didn't work. The motor should have been removed and re-checked once coolant poured out from the initial fill up.

If your Darton MID was done by Steve @ Race Engineering then I can assure you it was done correctly. He installs the sleeves and decks the block surface to ensure a true mating surface. The difference in measurements that Cartek and your mechanic that checked are probably due to the difference in measuring device error.

PS, IMO you have way too many different vendors, shops, tuners involved in a single engine build. THere's no way to accurately ascertain who is reponsible for what, who's being truthful, etc.

Just send it to Futral Motorsports and have it done correctly. You'll have no issues then

Beast96Z

iTrader: (21)

So who did what? I see way to many sponsor names in this thread. Basically your saying Darton did the block and you assembled the motor? Who is East?

Scalpel

iTrader: (4)

Darton - did MID sleeve install and decked block
Cartek - sold him MID block from Steve@RaceEngineering
East Side - did a preassembly of the motor to check clearances, and installed ARP mains
Thread Originator - did the assembly of the engine, entire long block. He filled the radiator w/coolant and coolant poured from the heads. He then started the car and heat cycled it. Changed his oil 3 times b/w initial fire and getting it to TR to tune it. Never checked coolant since the first fire and being at TR. Spun a main bearing on the dyno.
Local Machine Shop - checked pulled engine's sleeves protrusion from the deck surface
East Side currently has the motor for tear down and reassembly.

ScreaminDemon

I've been by Futral, nice shop. And I'm sure all the venders you mentioned appreciate the plug, but did you read my first post? Lingenfelter, MTI, More Performance, etc., say that sleeves should not stick out more than 2/1000th's, mine were out 5/1000th's. Darton East installed the sleeves, said they decked the block before and the sleeves after installation, and that 5/1000th's is fine. I called them after the initial leak, before we cranked it up, and they said it was decked. It never leaked again after the 1st heat cycle. I had sent them the rotating assembly just to check for clearancing issues. All assembly was done by me and a friend. Heads were done by Cartek, and I'm sure their measuring instruments are not made in China. Darton East right now is saying the threads in my block at one head stud got soft and let go, that's BS! We did 3 passes with 2 different tq wrenches, one the 2nd day, and all read 70 ft/pds. Darton says one of the studs right now will not tq past 50 ft/pds then lets go. Well maybe that's because water in the cylinder tried to push the head off?!!! We don't build engines every day, maybe 3 or 4 a year, but the assembly here was not the issue, though it is looking to be ones scapegoat!

Scalpel

iTrader: (4)

Just how far should the sleeves stick out on a wet sleeved block?

I'd ask the co-inventor of the Darton MID setup, Steve at Race Engineering. He would know best since he did practically design them and installs them himself and has structured the entire install process.

Why does Lingenfelter, MTI, More performance, etc., say no more than 2/1000th's or the heads won't seal and you'll end up with water in the cylinder,

That must be what works for them.

and Darton East says that 5/1000th's is just fine?

Darton and East Side are two different shops. Darton East is not a single entity.

Why did water leak onto the floor from my head after I only filled the radiator?

Insufficient head gasket sealing based on your testimony that the coolant leaked from the head and not the waterpump.

That did stop after the it heat cycled though.

It did stop visibly pouring out of the head but it was being put in the combustion chambers slowly hence your nearly empty radiator upon diassembly based on the info you provided.

Why did my newly built 427 go 160 miles babying it around and then when I get on the dyno at Thunderacing and floor it I get water in the cylinder and spin a main bearing?

I can bet it was using coolant before you got to TR. It was doing it on a scale that was minimal enough that you wouldn't detect it as a cloud of smoke or overheating b/c you were babying it.

Darton East has my engine right now, but aren't admitting any mistake.

Darton is not EAST. East shouldn't be admitting to anything. They only dia preassembly of the bottom end. That has no relation to head gasket sealing, etc.

They are saying right now that one of my head studs won't torque down past 50ft/pds, and that the block threads have gotten soft.

They could have gotten soft from the tremendous heat/water shock they got when water filled the combustion chamber on the dyno.

Well, if a piston was trying to compress water, wouldn't that try to pull the head off?!!

Yes, among other things.

This has messed up a Lunati crank and 2 pro billet rods, as well as a Darton sleeve.

That's no suprise.

Now I have to bore it a 4.155 and buy bigger pistons. I

Yep, makes sense.

I think I'm going to need a lawyer when this is over. Anybody got opinions??????

For what? I see no vendors/shops at fault. This is the automotive aftermarket industry. There are no guarantees.

BLUEBALLS ZZ

iTrader: (2)

i agree for the most part. it happens. hell, i had to rebuild a rebuild because the oil tensioner's in the box was wrong. but the oil rings for it in the same box was right. figure that out

Scalpel

iTrader: (4)

I've been by Futral, nice shop. And I'm sure all the venders you mentioned appreciate the plug, but did you read my first post?

Yes.

Lingenfelter, MTI, More Performance, etc., say that sleeves should not stick out more than 2/1000th's, mine were out 5/1000th's. Darton East installed the sleeves, said they decked the block before and the sleeves after installation, and that 5/1000th's is fine.

What is Darton East? Is this an affiliate of Darton that Steve @ Race Engineering is apart of?

I called them after the initial leak, before we cranked it up, and they said it was decked. I

I understand. You still fired an engine with a grossly obvious improper head gasket sealing issue. It should have NEVER been fired if coolant was indeed spilling out of the head.

Heads were done by Cartek, and I'm sure their measuring instruments are not made in China.

That was not what I was saying. Every measuring device has a degree of precision, some more or less than others and can account for differences in measurement.

Darton East right now is saying the threads in my block at one head stud got soft and let go, that's BS!

It's not BS if it occured to due it being on the dyno where it sucked in all that water and coolant, generating massive amounts of heat would, IMO, cause some possible block deformation simply from the excessive heat.

We did 3 passes with 2 different tq wrenches, one the 2nd day, and all read 70 ft/pds.

It doesn't matter. Your heads weren't sealed b/c coolant poured out of them before you EVER fired it up.

We don't build engines every day, maybe 3 or 4 a year, but the assembly here was not the issue, though it is looking to be ones scapegoat!

None of us know exactly how the engine was assembled. None of us know your skills, etc in assembling these motors. The fact that you assembled the majority of the motor makes you the lead culprit just based on the data. Could Darton East (I still don't know who that is) have machined the block incorrectly, sure, but how will we ever know? The block was not checked independently by anyone else before firing, correct?

It's your word against another. Did you measure the sleeve protrusion yourself before final assemlby to reassure it was congruent with what you were told?

There are far too many variables here to single out anyone. Take it as a learning experience. You gotta pay to play.

I'm not casting blame on anyone, just trying to delinate what the facts are.

ScreaminDemon

I don't know who East Side is, and I don't know who Steve@RaceEngineering is, read my post alittle more thoroughly. Darton East installed my MID wet sleeves in a 2001 LS1 block that they had. They also installed ARP main Caps and checked rotating assembly for any clearancing issues pryer to my assembly. They said they deck the block before and after. Cartek only did a freshening up job on my heads, I did not buy a block from them. Where did you read that one? The radiator was checked daily with no loss pryer before the dyno, Water only dripped from the gasket area between 3 and 4 cylinder at initial filling, that's when called Darton, who assured me that the block and sleeves were correct. Water didn't pour from both heads! Darton East has the complete engine now, insisting that the sleeves are not at fault

Scalpel

iTrader: (4)

read my post alittle more thoroughly.

LOL, that's why I'm posting after nearly every sentence b/c noone can delineate what you're saying. You type in nothing but run on sentences and fragments. I'm trying to decipher all the facts from you.

Darton East installed my MID wet sleeves in a 2001 LS1 block that they had. They also installed ARP main Caps and checked rotating assembly for any clearancing issues pryer to my assembly. They said they deck the block before and after.

Good deal. So how are they responsible for your heads not sealing after you torqued them down and coolant poured from them? Are you saying that the protrusion they measured from the get go was too much? Regardless of that, you still fired an engine with grossly inappropriate head gasket sealing issues. Instead, you should have pulled the motor, had the deck and heads checked and found out definatively from Steve @ Race Engineering (co-inventor of the MID sleeves and install).

If we assume the deck and heads were both true, then we have two options:

1. Faulty head gasket(s) even though you bought/used the specified ones
2. Improper torquing of the heads, not using correct ARP lube for TQ procedure, etc, basically improper torquing of heads regardles of how it was arrived
3. Both 1 and 2 acting together.

Cartek only did a freshening up job on my heads, I did not buy a block from them.

That's clarified now. Thanks.

The radiator was checked daily with no loss pryer before the dyno,

This was never told before in your above postings. One had to infer it from your lack of data you provided. You only mentioned checking the radiator once after the intial fill and that was upon diassembly. Just trying to delineate facts and put them in a chronological order.

Water only dripped from the gasket area between 3 and 4 cylinder at initial filling, that's when called Darton, who assured me that the block and sleeves were correct.

You STILL FIRED AN ENGINE WITH LEAKING HEAD(S)! This is where everything went awry.

Water didn't pour from both heads!

Again, you didn't specify. You aren't giving all the data which is what I'm trying to ascertain so others can make sense of all of this.

Darton East has the complete engine now, insisting that the sleeves are not at fault

That may be entirely correct. You, according to what you've said, did not check the sleeves, etc yourself after the engine pulled coolant in. How do you know that Darton East could be misinforming you if you yourself didn't check the sleeves, etc?

Just trying to delineate facts and chronicity. That's all.

ScreaminDemon

Mike, Darton Sleeves East installed my sleeves in a 2001 LS-1 engine about 2 months ago, the same time that Cartek was freshening up my heads. We used custom $200 Cometic gaskets and ARP head studs. Darton Sleeves East is located in New Albany, IN.,1-888-877-8484. Owners name is Mike, Jeff is the machinist and Shawn is in sales. I have been working with Shawn on this, though now he has gone on vacation, kindof leaving me in the mud. All variables were double checked on teardown, and everything leads to the protrusion of the sleeves. Darton has investigated the gaskets and heads, they have everything now. Darton said 5/1000th's was fine and that it was decked correctly. It ran fine until under load on the dyno. That's when the 5/1000th's on the sleeves proved too much and I got water in the cylinder, varifying what Lingenfelter told me after the fact. Darton was wrong about the sleeves specs, and should help me out more. Lingenfelter says no more than 2/1000th's or you will get water in the cylinder. This is why my heads would not seal.

Scalpel

iTrader: (4)

You still FIRED and RAN the engine KNOWING this.

You are responsible for your actions. As said earlier, when you saw the leaking head, the engine should have been pulled and sent to Darton or whomever to doubled check it all. Instead, you ran an engine with admittedly KNOWN head gasket sealing issues, sucked water into the motor and damaged the block and internals. That, undoubtedly, is your responsibility.

Why should a machine shop that installed the sleeves be responsible for you firing and running an engine with gross head gasket sealing issues?

They shouldn't.

At most, if they sleeves are at fault, they should repair the block to correct working order, this is if they're even at fault.

Good luck with your venture.