JZ'sTA

iTrader: (23)

A few months ago I was on this site and reading more AFR vs TEA or PRC or PP or whoever. Tonys number 1 point is that the 205 is 205 cc's which makes velocity like none other.
Both TEA and PRC set their stage 1.5 or 2.5 in the 224-228cc area.
Many say this is too big, or AFR is way better because of the smaller chamber size. I myself bought into this for a while. I am a TEA user myself and have tried 2 sets of AFR's. Beautiful heads and if they wern't so expensive I would use them more often. However IMO the aren't worth the extra 800 dollars over what TEA supplys with their 5.3 heads. Now if your a big N20 guy or boost guy then that thicker deck sure is nice.
Anyways back on point and $$$ isn't the big point I am trying to make.
So we have the AFR 205 vs say a stage 1.5 5.3 TEA head at 225cc's.
Lets say the TEA's really do kill the AFR's in flow but they should since they are 20cc larger. Now you have the debate whice will make more power?
Again back to where many feel the 205 has the velocity and the 225 cc TEA head will loose the power battle because of this even though they flow better. Which brings me to my point.
If the 205 is so awsome then why does Tony say the AFR 225 will typicially make 10-15 more HP on a 346 with a fairly large cam?
Isn't that saying that 225cc's (or in AFR's case where the head is acturally a 229cc head) is 100% fine for stock cubes?
Wouldn't that kinda make the whole velocity theory a little less buyable?
If Tony says it himself for his own head then why wouldn't this be true of other 225 cc LS1 heads?
Am I saying TEA is better or that the 1.5 5.3 head is as good as the 225 AFR head???? NO.
I am simply trying to bring up a good point. I feel this subject is often brought up but I haven't ever seen anyone with the same theory as the one just posted.
So if the 229AFR flows better and makes more power then the AFR 205cc on stock cubic inches then why do so many feel 225cc's isn't a great setup for stock cubes? Why do so many feel the AFR 205 clearly beats the TEA's?

Ryan02SS

iTrader: (3)

I can't wait for a vendor to do some back to back dyno runs with different cam combo's and different head combo's. Same car, dyno, tuned to potential for each setup. This would make decisions a whole lot easier. Hell I'll let my car be the test mule as long as I get to keep the heads that make the most power for all the labor removing and installing different heads.

jrp

iTrader: (16)

the sum of the parts is greater then the whole. does anybody happen to have the minmimal cross section of the 1.5's. the 225's will make more power due to there greater airflow capacity, coupled with the proper cam timing and induction.

i've rarely seen 225 to 230cc port volumes being toted as "too big"? In the unofficial poll of brents thread about velocity and tq in the 2500 - 4k range the AFR cam out on top. granted there's a plethora of combination possibilities but it puts stock in the theory that its not just smoke and mirrors. the 205's have brought greater tq possibilities to the average joe. prior to the 205 the only high peak and under the curve packages you'd see were done with large ported ls6 castings and huge cams.

and FWIW if your gonna refer to the 225 as 229 then you might as well refer too the others as 230-232 as thats what alot of them check out as.

eamador11

I like my 205s. I can put down nice power without going radical with the cam. Bigger is not always better! Get AFRS 205s if your a 346 and choose the right cam!

steveo346

iTrader: (18)

afr's 205 are the bomb...a friend just put some on his 02 ss and they made run way way better.....he also put a 90mm fast intake and a nick williams TB

JakeFusion

iTrader: (7)

For the price difference between AFR225s and the 205s, I'd say the 225s are a better deal, especially on LS2s with the 4" bore. In fact, with the way the 225s perform on a stock cubed LS1 motor, they seem to outgun any other head out there. Considering they cost double what some of the budget heads are going for, I still find it hard to recomment the 225s, even if they actually make 50-60rwhp and maybe more on a 4" bored LS2 with a stout cam. But, it's not that hard. If you have the cash and an LS2, go for them. I still don't think the 205 is worth its price tag over the budget heads, because the power different isn't as dramatic, especially on the LS1/6.

I'm anxious to see the 62cc chambered version placed on a stock LS2 with a cam like a Comp Cams LSK 239/243 .649"/.653" 113+1 LSA. With the FAST LSX90, and 1-3/4" LG or QTP HVMC Headers, 500rwhp should be a bit easier when the heads are milled to 58cc with .040" cometics.

I still think heads are not the best bang for the buck, but if 500rwhp can be had with basically what we have now on the market with 364cid, I'll rethink that position, because that's an awesome value for people with LS2s.

Or, get the LS7 and pop a 250+ duration cam in it.

Tony Mamo @ AFR

iTrader: (13)

Don't have much time to get into detail here as this is my last day in paradise (greetings from Aruba everyone!), but your missing a few key points. Most of the Brand "X" budget heads are 225-235 cc's and most that I have seen on my bench won't eclipse a 205's flow numbers especially in the low and middle part of the curve. Also, even fewer are within striking distance on the exhaust side. The few that might go slightly more peak aren't showing the area under the curve and do NOT have as much velocity (can't pack the cylinder as effectively) as a smaller port with more area under the curve and a few CFM less peak (which gets lost thru the intake anyway...a huge factor often overlooked).

Regarding the 225's, look over my flow comparison thread again when you have a chance. Trying to compare a "budget head" at the same volume against the flow "curve" of the 225's is no comparison. The 225's have explosive low and midlift flow (intake and exhaust), not to mention very strong peak numbers as well, especially if you want to live in the "real world" and not the matrix where every ported LS1 head flows 320 or better. I'm convinced that most of the peak numbers get lopped off by restrictive intake manifolds anyway in most applications so it will be the heads that have smaller cross-sectional area's and greater area under the curve type flow numbers that are going to shine....at least in 95% of the applications seen on this board and others.

Its not just about flow or velocity....it is about the entire package as JRP has mentioned, and a strong combination of the two (combined with very effective low and midlift flow) is hard to beat....THAT is AFR's winning formula. Also, our ability to consistently reproduce those results so that EVERYONE can appreciate the positive design attributes we build into our product is paramount and worth the price of admission in itself (not just a select few "tweaked" sets that end up on "Brand XYZ" shop cars and a few "cheerleaders").

Not a sponsor on this board has been CNC porting cylinder heads as long as AFR, and the old adage you get what you pay for still holds true. I NEVER touted that the AFR's are the best "bang for the buck"....we just set our target on producing the finest, no compromise "bolt-on" style street head that money can buy. We take no short cuts in their execution (extremely fine CNC finish that takes MANY hours to produce), and have spent considerable time in the R&D phase to develop them. We might have sold more had we taken a few cost cutting measures in their execution, but trust me that would have came with some compromises in flow and power as well. Seems the only guys that really get it are the ones that decide to take the plunge and purchase them...How many guys out there have our product and are not happy and didn't make power? Can you say the same of all the "Brand XYZ" econo-choices and what is that peace of mind worth after spending thousands anyway and devoting a ton of time doing a heads cam swap?? I would prefer to spend the extra coin on a proven product that consistently puts down the numbers, and more importantly, does so in many independent shops and average Joe racer build-ups, not just a select few of the "rah-rah" club.

Let the debate rage on....I will be back next week and will shortly be discussing my results from the 383 I just completed dyno testing. A few surprises and very strong finishing results....more on that later.

Tony M.

Cary@Perf-Induction

iTrader: (1)

There are a few things here I can agree with you on Tony. AFR has set a new standard starting back with the ford cylinder heads that AFR produces. The standard is fully cnc porting a cylinder head that comes in below what the market is used to. Bad for all the guys who produce low volume production and can't compete. Well, if you cant keep up, stay on the porch. From a business standpoint, I had a hard time with it. But on the opposite end, I thought what could be better than cnc porting becomming a standard in the street performance market. I thank AFR again for that. We at ET Performance have taken on the same approach. I feel it is the best value for the consumer as well as for company's like us. We can devote machines for these jobs and that helps all of us keep the price down. I can also agree that AFR has been behind the wheel of cnc porting for a long time. Your work is very nice. My disagreement is only my opinion and I will keep that to my self, The whole flow number thing is only as good as the science and physics that surround the whole package . setting standards with theories are not right in my eyes, setting standards with real scientific proof, is valuable. I know we can only be examples to the forums and try to educate the uneducated or put a thought into a mind that already has it figured out. When it comes down to what is better, only the end user or tuner can determine that. there hands are the last ones to touch. Hope your not in ARUBA with EDm I heard he like to pee in the water. lol

Ed Curtis

This is a cool deal...

My "CNC" buddies are barbing cutters and aluminum chips with each other. No matter what the outcome, I win!

BTW Cary...

I go to Aruba when the snow hits here and their drag strip is open... Makes for a better trip...

Ed

mike c.

iTrader: (1)

some say the AFR 205 isnt worth much over the budget heads? well....i had the budget heads,my car made 380hp stang dyno. when i added the AFR205 heads i went to 416hp before a tune on the same stang dyno. with tuning things in and a new mass air i went to 434hp same dyno.

eb02z06

iTrader: (18)

AFR 205's, stock LS6 cam, Stock LS6 manifolds, Stock Z06 Cats-405/385 SAE rwhp, full length headers in place of manifolds still through cats 420/395 SAE.
AFR 205's-work, enough said.

silverTA2002

iTrader: (1)

Could you give a little more info?

Which heads/cam did you have before?

Did you tune after the "budget" heads?

If not, the comparison doesn't really work. A lot of the difference between the heads could be in the tune. In fact, it could be almost all of the difference.

I just have a hard time believing that switching from one set of ported heads to another would make a 36 rwhp difference.

eb02z06

iTrader: (18)

I mean no offence to any of the "other" manufacturers of ported cylinder heads but as JRP would say use the "search" botton. After that it becomes painfully obvious which heads provide the most consistent results and what manufacturers are there to provide answers to everyones question if the head performs or doesn't. I agree the AFR's are expensive-and I think that eventually the price will come down-but then again most of the ported LS1 heads were very expensive when they were first available. I've very good luck with the AFR's and have recommended them to all my friends-you just can't go wrong with the results. I've also had good luck with another head porter who no longer ports heads-but the consistency was not there-nor was the delivery. No matter how you look at it guys we the consumer eventually wins.

Phil'sC5vette

iTrader: (4)

Am I the only one who hasnt seen results from the AFR heads.

Crap, I better get them bolted on soon

1QuickT-A

iTrader: (12)

Its all about PROVEN results and PROVEN consistency.. How many times do you see posts from joe blow that sound like this:

"I just got my (TEA, PRC, PP, MTI, etc) stage 1/2/3 heads put on the car and it only made 395/380 on the dyno.. Is that normal? I expected at least 400+rwhp with these heads and my F13.. Whats wrong with my car??"

OR

"I just got my (tea, prc, pp, mti, etc) heads and they dont look right.. The box was torn up, the heads were scratched up, the valve job doesnt look good, the cnc work is rough looking, I want a refund.. etc etc"

You basically never hear anything like this..

"I just put my AFR's on the car and it didnt make any power.. I was expecting this or that.. blah blah blah The heads didnt look very nice.. I want my money back.. etc etc"

9 times out of 10 AFR heads have proved themselves to have the best quality and the best performance over any of the other LSX heads out there.. Just my .02

Ryan02SS

iTrader: (3)

1QuickT-A, You can cut both MTI & TEA out of your equations above as they seem to always show good results both on the dyno and at the track.

Mirek

I picked up between 35-40 horsepower with the addition of AFR's and an LS6 Intake. Not just peak HP either, good power all over the place.
There is AFR and there is everything else. It is difficult to talk somebody out of the AFR's if they can come up with the scratch.

If that is hard to keep up with that now, just wait until all the shops finally begin releasing their proprietary "Stage X" CNC programmed/hand blended edelbrocks, darts, trickflows, etc....heads that are meant to be ported. Then the cobwebs of Bullshit will get even harder and harder to navigate (but we also might see some cool stuff).

silverTA2002

iTrader: (1)

Exactly what I was going to say. I haven't heard anything bad said about either set of heads yet.

gollum

iTrader: (1)

Until then?

TAQuickness

iTrader: (28)

Negatory - I have heard of MTI and TEA's in the same context 1QuickT-A described. It's not as common as others, but it does happen more often than it should.