What chews up lifter rollers?
11-09-2005, 08:23 AM
#1
What chews up lifter rollers? After replacing a couple of chewed up lifters over the weekend myself, im beginning to notice quite a few people having this problem. What causes the spalling/gallin/pitting on the lifter's roller as well as the cam lobe and base circle? On my lifters it seemed as though the case hardened layer of the roller was flaking off. Looke like when chrome plating starts to peel. It was brittle enough I could remove some flakes with my fingernail. What would be the cause of this? Is it simply age related? I have just under 90K miles, f-13 cam with gold dual springs. Ive always run synthetic oil on 4.5K mile drain intervals. Was running GC at the time the lifters went. Also, I put on 98% highway miles. I do very little hard driving. Ive only seen my 6400 rpm shiftlight maybe 10 times in the last 10K miles.
11-09-2005, 09:38 AM
#2
TECH Senior Member
Could be a variety of reasons:
> oil starvation
> too much preload
> lifter twisting in it's bore
> bore damage
> high miles
> bad lifter holding cups
> miss shift
> wrong geometry
etc.......
> oil starvation
> too much preload
> lifter twisting in it's bore
> bore damage
> high miles
> bad lifter holding cups
> miss shift
> wrong geometry
etc.......
11-09-2005, 09:46 AM
#3
> oil starvation
Never ran it low on oil, 40+ hot idle oil pressure all its life.
> too much preload
Stock non-adjustable rocker were used.
> lifter twisting in it's bore
nope, they were all correctly oriented.
> bore damage
Nope, the bores were all clean and showed virtually no wear on the bore or the lifter sides.
> high miles
90K, but only 10K with the cam. Mostly babied and easy highway miles. Still on the stock clutch.
> bad lifter holding cups
These seemed to be fine. Pulled them and cleaned them out before reassembling.
> miss shift
Nope, not any time recently anyway. Besides the dual springs and hardened pushrods should be able to keep the valvetrain under control, no?
> wrong geometry
I have the standard 1.450 base circle, unmilled heads with 7.4 pushrods, when i really need 7.425 PRs or to mill the heads .025. I wouldnt think hydraulic lifters would have a problem with the .025" discrepency.
> etc.......
This is also a strong possibility.
Never ran it low on oil, 40+ hot idle oil pressure all its life.
> too much preload
Stock non-adjustable rocker were used.
> lifter twisting in it's bore
nope, they were all correctly oriented.
> bore damage
Nope, the bores were all clean and showed virtually no wear on the bore or the lifter sides.
> high miles
90K, but only 10K with the cam. Mostly babied and easy highway miles. Still on the stock clutch.
> bad lifter holding cups
These seemed to be fine. Pulled them and cleaned them out before reassembling.
> miss shift
Nope, not any time recently anyway. Besides the dual springs and hardened pushrods should be able to keep the valvetrain under control, no?
> wrong geometry
I have the standard 1.450 base circle, unmilled heads with 7.4 pushrods, when i really need 7.425 PRs or to mill the heads .025. I wouldnt think hydraulic lifters would have a problem with the .025" discrepency.
> etc.......
This is also a strong possibility.
11-09-2005, 09:56 AM
#4
TECH Senior Member
Originally Posted by GuitsBoy
> oil starvation
Never ran it low on oil, 40+ hot idle oil pressure all its life.
Never ran it low on oil, 40+ hot idle oil pressure all its life.
> miss shift
Nope, not any time recently anyway. Besides the dual springs and hardened pushrods should be able to keep the valvetrain under control, no?
Nope, not any time recently anyway. Besides the dual springs and hardened pushrods should be able to keep the valvetrain under control, no?
> etc.......
This is also a strong possibility.
This is also a strong possibility.
11-09-2005, 10:01 AM
#6
Good info pred-z, thanks. I only replaced the four damaged lifters, two had easily visable damage. The other two has merely small cracks that I could see developing into pitting. The other stockers were left in there. I did not pull the cam, but I could see the lobes through the lifter bore and the window on the other side of the block. Only one lobe had any damage, and it did not look severe at all. The heads are coming off again in another month or two, and I ordered a set of 16 lifters to swap out then. If the lobe looks like its getting any worse, or if it has caused any pitting on the new lifter at that time, ill swap out cams as well. How can I make sure the lifters dont get chewed up again?
11-09-2005, 11:04 AM
#7
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I saw a video interview (maybe elsewhere on this forum) with Scooter Patrick of Comp Cams. He said they made some recent changes (~ 6 months) to address this issue:
1. Positive oiling via an EDM (Electron Discharge Machining) passage right to the rollers.
2. Meticulous sorting of roller diameters, as one as little as 20 microns larger than most will be overloaded and may fail prematurely.
3. New tool steel pins, to better reduce deflection under high load.
I expect other brands are following suit.
I'd say you're playing Russian Roulette by not changing out all the lifters now, and doing some pretty careful checking re where all the fragments wound up...
1. Positive oiling via an EDM (Electron Discharge Machining) passage right to the rollers.
2. Meticulous sorting of roller diameters, as one as little as 20 microns larger than most will be overloaded and may fail prematurely.
3. New tool steel pins, to better reduce deflection under high load.
I expect other brands are following suit.
I'd say you're playing Russian Roulette by not changing out all the lifters now, and doing some pretty careful checking re where all the fragments wound up...
Last edited by MadBill; 11-09-2005 at 04:03 PM.
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11-09-2005, 11:17 AM
#9
Originally Posted by BlackHawk T/A
Agreed...where do you think all those pieces are going to go...
As for playing russian roulette not swapping all the lifters, Im going to be doing a head swap in another month or two. Ive already ordered a full set of lifters for then. I only replaced the four because I needed to repace them right then and there cause my car is a daily driver and I needed to get it back on the road.
11-09-2005, 11:17 AM
#10
TECH Senior Member
Originally Posted by MadBill
I saw a video interview (maybe elsewhere on this forum) with Scooter Patrick of Comp Cams. He said they made some recent changes (~ 6 months) to address this issue:
1. Positive oiling via an EDM (Electron Discharge Milling) passage right to the rollers.
2. Meticulous sorting of roller diameters, as one as little as 20 microns larger than most will be overloaded and may fail prematurely.
3. New tool steel pins, to better reduce deflection under high load.
I expect other brands are following suit.
I'd say you're playing Russian Roulette by not changing out all the lifters now, and doing some pretty careful checking re where all the fragments wound up...
1. Positive oiling via an EDM (Electron Discharge Milling) passage right to the rollers.
2. Meticulous sorting of roller diameters, as one as little as 20 microns larger than most will be overloaded and may fail prematurely.
3. New tool steel pins, to better reduce deflection under high load.
I expect other brands are following suit.
I'd say you're playing Russian Roulette by not changing out all the lifters now, and doing some pretty careful checking re where all the fragments wound up...
I use Comp 850-16. Their ability to handle ~.600 lift cams is much better than stockers.
11-09-2005, 02:39 PM
#11
Originally Posted by PREDATOR-Z
True, I read a similar article on this.
I use Comp 850-16. Their ability to handle ~.600 lift cams is much better than stockers.
I use Comp 850-16. Their ability to handle ~.600 lift cams is much better than stockers.
#1 More and more people are running dual springs with higher pressure. Maybe the added pressure is killing em.
#2 The clatter that some cams make can't be good for the valve train. Perhaps the growing amount of time it's been clattering is finally taking it's toll.
#3 Maybe it is just high mileage. More and more people are getting up there with mileage as our LS1's age.
I sure would like to have an answer before I pull the trigger for a new F13.
11-09-2005, 04:59 PM
#14
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it's a moving part and eventually will wear out. improper geometry will shorten the life of the valve train.
i would bet $0.25 that the majority of valve train component failures are due to improper geometry. do your homework, get the geometry right, and your valve train should last a good long while
i would bet $0.25 that the majority of valve train component failures are due to improper geometry. do your homework, get the geometry right, and your valve train should last a good long while
11-09-2005, 06:09 PM
#16
NO, it always sounded like a sewing machine. Still does. The lifters were a distinct tick and plinking sound like a marble dropped in a coffee can. The sewing machine noise might have gotten a little quieter over the last 10K miles, but its normal and nothing to worry about.
11-09-2005, 06:20 PM
#17
Originally Posted by GuitsBoy
NO, it always sounded like a sewing machine. Still does. The lifters were a distinct tick and plinking sound like a marble dropped in a coffee can. The sewing machine noise might have gotten a little quieter over the last 10K miles, but its normal and nothing to worry about.
11-09-2005, 09:57 PM
#20
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I think my one lifter was making a racket possibly because it rotated 90degrees which I think was due to a weak valvespring. 15k street miles on a mild .535" lift cam, but 4k roadrace miles. Think it chewed the cam lobe up a bit too.