Pecos Pete

Anyone know of a combination of LSx, LS1, Gen III heads, cranks, pistons that will yield 14:1 or higher compression ratio for a E85 only motor? I want to try to mix and match stock or inexpensive components to evaluate PCM programming and a few different compression ratios before I build the final long block version with "good" parts.

Anyone built an LSx motor to run solely on the 105 octane ethanol fuel?

According to this article, E110 was used in a 19.5:1 compression ratio with good results. If this is to be believed, E85 at 14:1 ought to be childs play.

http://www.hybridcars.com/blogs/hyvi...e-from-ethanol

I am thinking of using Flexifuel vehicle components from GM where ever possible. Many GM vehicles built since 2002 have used components and materials that are E85 compatable.

The ECM programming will take some effort to get right. I understand alcohol burns at a different rate than gasoline, so the timing will be different. It also burns cooler than gasoline, so it takes longer to light off the catalytic converters. O2 readings will likely be different. Wide band O2's may be necessary. Making it E85 specific simplifies things a bunch.

Another thought I had was when using a 14:1 or higher compression ratio will require a higher torque starter motor, but other than that, using 2002 and newer GM Flexifuel fuel system components, and the E85 specific ECM programming, I am not sure what else should be different?

I have 88 service stations that sell E85 within 100 miles of my house (Minnesota). 88! Look here to see how many are close to you. -

http://www.e85refueling.com/index.ph...f700bade3f4188

Grimes

iTrader: (3)

yeah, i really think the computer will be the hardest part. I would just go with some milled heads and appropriate forged pistons (with dome or pad?) to get the compression up there. I'm sure one of the sponsors could help you pick out an assembly.

The stock starter is a pretty good piece, you should just try it initially to see how it fares.

Looks like you've been doing your research...i wonder if the higher compression can make up for the loss in gas mileage you get with e85. I've seen figures of 1/4 to 1/3 worse gas mileage with e85. However this was with flex fuel vehicles and stock compression.


Good luck with the project; i think you may be breaking new ground here.

SVT THIS

iTrader: (27)

I was wondering when something like this would come along, I can't wait to see it completed! The only thing I have heard is that E85 eats through the fuel rails/lines of our stock motors. I am not sure about PCM, injectors or anything else. At all. Good luck!

NemeSS

iTrader: (127)

I have been undecided on a LSx 3rd gen camaro that i would like to build for use with e85 fuel
i even put togethera theoretical engine runnin about 14: SCR and 9.5 or better SCR
The engine would be a large cube with .060 over bore 6.0 l
with a 4 in stroke or even a 4.1 stroke
414ci w/4 stroke or 425ci w/4.1 stroke
and a th400,with a carb. mainly for street/strip i would also like to use a big N20 shot, but am not sure on the n20/fuel ratio
i am pretty good at tuning DP type carbs, more so than EFI at this point
thats why i would like to use a carb,it wont be a dd car so econmy is not a factor, there are some mean heads for the LSx now, so airflow is not really a concern to make big power.
i know some turbomustang guys have made close to or more than 1000 rwhp
with e85, so it can be done, it seems like it will just boil down to the proper tuning and availability of e85.

CaptUSA

iTrader: (5)

I'm hoping the new camaro's will be E85 ready. Then I won't need to do any mods.

Pecos Pete

1) "E85 ready" and 2) "built to take advantage of 105 octane", are two different engines.

I am not thinking big cubes, but rather short stroke and high reving. Something like Westech's 2000 302cid (LSx) Camaro of a few years back.

http://www.westechauto.com/tech_talk...1/ar5_01_2.htm

http://www.superchevy.com/features/c...amaro_ls1_302/

http://www.camaroz28.com/articles/302camaro/index.shtml

http://www.ultimatecarpage.com/frame...hp&carnum=1147

If Westech could get 435 hp in a 5.0L (302 cid) engine that could rev to 7500 safely, think how much fun this small cube short stroke motor would be running E85 alcohol at 15:1 compression.

Cop Car

iTrader: (14)

id say the biggest issue would be replacing your fuel tank and fuel lines. alcohol will eat the plastic so you have to switch all that along with switching the injectors.

GM should just make a retrofit kit

98hardtopZ

iTrader: (7)

whats the price difference on e85 versus premium? i dont have any e85 stations within 350 miles of me tho (ms)

xaon

iTrader: (12)

hmmm... only 17 E85 stations in the 269,000 square miles of Texas... I don't think i'll be switching to E85 anytime soon

Black FormulaLs1

iTrader: (10)

according to that site the ony way i am getting E85 is to go to atlanta or fort benning...

circletrack101

iTrader: (4)

the entire fuel system will have to be replaced, with e85 compatable components, also it will corrode the valves pretty badly due to the corrosiveness, I can't see it being cost effective, but good luck

Pecos Pete

GM has this covered. All I have to do is gather up GM fuel system components used on their Flexfuel E85 ready vehicles. I believe GM started this in 2002. Look for the yellow gas caps -



http://www.gm.com/company/onlygm/liv...low/index.html

What I am looking for is someone that has experience or information running E85 in an engine that's purpose built to run it. Purpose built to run 105 octane alcohol (ethonol) ONLY. I am not looking to include the Flexfuel feature, just run E85 all the time. That's the important thing. An engine that's built to run alcohol can scream, but it has to be optimized for the fuel. Larger injectors, timing, higher compression, maybe even the camshaft should be set up to take advantage of the cooler burn and increased octane. Basically this stuff is just alcohol with enough gasoline thrown in for cold starts. It is racing gas.

The GM Flexfuel fuel pump will likely be required as it addresses the fact that alcohol is electrically conductive and is not a lubricant. Dino fuel is non conductive and is a lubricant.

The ECM programming will take some effort to get right. I know this. I understand alcohol burns at a different rate than gasoline, so the timing will be different. It also burns cooler than gasoline, so it takes longer to light off the catalytic converters. O2 readings will likely be different. Wide band O2's may be necessary. Making it E85 specific simplifies things a bunch, but this will also be breaking new ground in uncharted terratory.

I am just looking for a straight forward combination of LSx parts to achieve 14.5:1 compression ratio so I can get busy shaking out the computer reprogramming changes.

Can anyone help me with the mixing and matching of basically stock engine components including cylinder bore, crank stroke, head volume, pistons, and rods to achieve something north of 14:1 compression ratio? I am not looking for big cubic inches, just big compression for a mule for PCM programming work.

SSCamaro99_3

iTrader: (1)

There is a guy in the St. Louis area that is building a purpose built motor for this, and is adjusting the PCM formulas.

ebear

I live in a 80%~ Democractic area.. so theres an e85 station like... 5min from my house

NassyVette

iTrader: (22)

Interesting idea...you could make a lot of money selling retrofit kits.

Pecos Pete

If I use a;

6.0 block => 101.6mm bore (4.000")
6.0 flat top pistons
4.8 crank => 83 mm stroke (3.268")
4.8 rods => 159.38 mm (6.275")
LS6 heads => 61cc
.040 head gasket height

I end up with a rod/stroke ratio of 1.92:1 and a calculated static compression ratio of 11.98:1

http://www.race-cars.net/calculators...alculator.html

I want to get the compression up to 14.5:1, or possibly a bit more.

What is the best way to do this? How much can the heads be milled? I know flat top pistons are best for flame propagation, but are domed 6.0 pistons available?

disco192

honestly, if you are spending the money, just get a set of custom pistons. It will simplify everything. Unless you want to buy a NEW block... again... makes little sense.

TT402LS1

iTrader: (5)

Im building a twin turbo 402 for my car. I dont have any fuel pieces except fuel rails (Speed Inc.). I want to make sure when I buy my tank, fuel lines, etc.. that I will be able to convert my engine over to E85 in the future. I would be very interested in what will be needed. Im pretty sure the E85 wont eat plastic, so a plastic fuel sell is needed. I dont know about fuel lines, injectors, fuel rails, etc...

69huggerZ

iTrader: (1)

Just to clarify one thing about the gas mileage with E85:

The reason why flexfuel vehicles (FFVs) get poor mileage with e85 as opposed to gasoline is because they are not optimized for STRICTLY e85 use. That being said FFVs still maintain the gasoline friendly compression ratio of about 10:1 so that gasoline can still be used incase e85 is unavailable. However that 10:1 ratio is what kills the mileage when e85 is used. Since e85 is 105 octane, it is better optimized for higher compression ratios such as 14:1 and 15:1 where it will reach is best mpg. Therefore if a motor is purposely built to run on e85 and e85 only, it should theoretically get better mileage, more horsepower (roughly 5%), and produce less pollution than a gasoline engine. Also, around where I live e85 is about $2.40 a gallon as opposed to $3.11 for gas.

So if you put all those things together (mileage, horsepower, pollution, and price) it really isn't a bad idea to build a motor optimized for e85. Sure it's going to expensive and time consuming (also a tad illegal...EPA bull$hit). But the finished product, if built correctly, should put up better numbers in both the hp and mpg areas than a gasoline engine. I think Pecos Pete's idea is very realistic and not stupid at all. However, I am no expert and this is just what I understand from doing some research.

Just my .02

disco192

I think there is alot of potential with this stuff. I was thinking about swapping heads on my 383 and putting a blower....

Now I could just convert to E85 and put a blower on top of my 12:1 compression. 105 octane should be able to handle quite a bit of boost. 8-10 pounds at least.

Its win/win if you ask me.