t1blackout

iTrader: (6)

Hey guys,

I am looking to buy a set of heads for my current setup (see sig). I love my F-13 cam but I need to get a dyno-tune and I dont want to waste the money before getting heads.

What heads should I get for max power, taking the $$$ into consideration? I am looking at buying the Dart 225's from Alan at Futral. He seems to know his stuff and he highly recommended them. I just wanted a few opinions from you guys before I go buy them.

What other mods should I buy? I have 120k on the motor and I want to make sure I spend the money to do the job right. I plan on getting lifters but I dont know what else to get, or what brand of lifters to get. Will my drivability be affected much?

Any ideas? Thanks a lot for your help,

-Brent

Xtnct00WS6

iTrader: (8)

You're drivability won't be any worse than it is now, esp since you're untuned. It seems like your asking what the "bang for the buck" heads you should get. I'd get the Patriot 243 heads. Since you already have a decent size cam in there, think twice about putting aftermarket valves in unless you're willing to flycut.

Hit up Larry at Green Light Motor Sports for a tune. I came in at 375 and walked away with 401 with his tune.

Are the darts your thinking about cnc ported or ported at all? I've heard bad things about the as cast flow numbers of the 205's so I don't expect much from the 225's. If they're ported, that's another story.

Sigforty

Darts are a good choice. I have the Dart 205s on my z06 with a F14 cam and a few bolt ons. The 205s and 225s flow very well in the stock cast form, and when combined with the right cam make great power as well. As for lifters if you want the best go with Morels. If you want a budget lifter try some of the Ls7 ones I hear many people like them and cost is around 300 dollars versus 490 for Morels. Allan will not steer you wrong in with the combo and tuning will be the key for power and driveablity. I would be glad to answer any questions about my setup if you want just PM me.

junior28570

iTrader: (22)

I just had the Dart 225 / F13 112LSA and .040 cometic put in my car. I had it dyno tuned and it put down 404whp / 382wtq (locked, 3200SS Yank). My tune is not just right yet so, there may be a little more in it. I'll be going back to the tuner for some adjustments and see if I net any different.

I also went with new Comp OE lifters. My car only has 50K on it but it's the second cam. I just felt better using new lifters.

I've since came up with a rear end prob., I think my factory "locker" is going out so ... no track numbers to report. I had too many traction issues BEFORE to even consider my track #'s (12.7 @109 / 1.97 60ft ... putting down 360/360) I'm working on that now though

I would think your car would put down better numbers with your mods. I'm running a full catted exhaust w/ mac mids ... not exactly optimum flow

t1blackout

iTrader: (6)

awesome. anyone else?

t1blackout

iTrader: (6)

Should I go with the darts or the lingenfelter heads http://www.lingenfelter.com/store/p20.html

Do I get the ported LS6 heads or the ported ls1 heads? which would be better?

JRracing

iTrader: (35)

If on a budget get PP 243's.

If funds are not a problem go with dart, AFR, TFS, or edlbrocks.

t1blackout

iTrader: (6)

whats the difference between the dart 225s on Futrals website, and the lingenfelter CNC ported heads from their website (listed above)? I want best bang for buck, not the cheapest heads, but the best value... I dont mind spending what it takes to do the job right.

The1N_only

iTrader: (7)

there is better heads out there for the money than darts... that just me

t1blackout

iTrader: (6)

like??? and some reasons please... i know nothing about this stuff.

Xtnct00WS6

iTrader: (8)

What's your budget? Read the GM Hightech performance article on heads and decide for yourself. Darts aren't that great unless ported. They're a great platform to start with. Much better than a GM casting, but you need to get them ported to take advantage of them. TSP or PP are great if you want a 243 ls6 casting. It's getting to the point where they just happen to be cheap b/c there's a big market for them. They aren't cheap in quality, they just don't cost much. I'm making good power with a 243 head from PP. Don't bother with any ls1 casting. If you can spend more, then go with AFR or Trick flow.

cws T/A

iTrader: (3)

https://ls1tech.com/forums/dynamometer-results-comparisons/580073-new-afr-f13-ported-fast-numbers.html

Sigforty

I think you have some of your facts wrong. You do not need to port Darts to take advantage of them. From personal experience they perform just as well as afr heads of a similar size. As for ported ls6 heads you roll the dice on performance. Some ported ls6 heads are prone to cracking and oil leaks due to thin walls in the intake runners from over porting, and the exposed rocker bolts. Now the trickflow stuff makes some impressive numbers, but they cost over 2 grand and you need to change the rockers as well.

cws T/A

iTrader: (3)

stock rockers need to be rebuilt , offsets the cost .

ThunderStruk

iTrader: (1)

We have had nothing but good luck with the Dart 225's. Put them on multiple setups and all have made great power!!!!

Xtnct00WS6

iTrader: (8)

Maybe I should rephrase myself. You need to get them ported to take full advantage of them.

Per the GMHTP article the AFR 205's made more power than the Dart 225's. The AFR's flowed more and made more power with a smaller runner. No comparison in my opinion.

AFR Average hp: 413 <- more
Dart Average hp: 409

AFR Average tq: 440 <- more
Dart Average tq: 437

AFR Peak hp: 547 <- more
Dart peak hp: 532

AFR peak tq: 479 <- more
Dart peak tq: 478

The AFR was also at a disadvantage with less compression. 66cc vs 63cc

Where are you getting your information?

Xtnct00WS6

iTrader: (8)

These problems have long been solved and you can't beat them for the money.

Sigforty

I do not think so as I have seen two problem sets in the last two months.

As for the gm hightech article you need to take things with a grain of salt. Numbers off by say + or - 5 hp on those runs are around 1% of the total and can easily be within the dyno's error. There are many factors in that test the magazine does not address that could come up. How were the runs made? Engine temps? weather conditions? I also wonder why they did not test the Dart 205s if they had the AFR 205s. I do not think the test was a well planned one. The only consistent item in that test besides the engine is that all heads are for an LS engine. Each head differs greatly from each other. I feel that heads like the TFS should not have been tested since they have a different valve angle and to me that puts them in a different class. I have looked at setups on this board and others for over two years now. I feel that the numbers I have seen posted show the darts are very comparable with afr heads in both power and torque produced, but at a lower cost.

I also believe that Futral cams are more optimized with Dart heads as well.

Xtnct00WS6

iTrader: (8)

I haven't seen any examples lately of a ported 243 having problems. Got any links? If they're bought from patriot you can rest assure it'll get taken care of swiftly. Considering the volume of 243's being sold....2 isn't bad at all if you ask me.

GMHTP is probably the most reliable and impartial source of data we have. Peak hp was a difference of 15...not 5. And that's with a smaller intake runner and less compression. Imagine if AFR had their 225 that difference would go up drastically. The difference of compression is probably worth ~10. AFR dominates over Dart. I can assure you that any Futral cam will work better in a AFR head as apposed to a Dart assuming it's unported.

You're whole point centers around it being apples to oranges. If it were apples to apples, the AFR head would be that much better.

Sigforty

There were not Patriot heads that I saw, but another company who did ported ls6 heads.

That is my whole point is no one really has an apples to apples comparison so the best you can do is find the closest apples to oranges one. I would be very interested to see a straight up comparison done between the two. Of course with AFR you do pay 600 dollars more, and I do not feel that extra cash is worth the few extra HP you may get.