AFR 205's too much head for a stock motor?
07-31-2007, 07:35 AM
#1
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AFR 205's too much head for a stock motor? Well know there not, but our local engine guru says they are. Some background, this stock motor, has a cam headers, lid, LS6 intake and exhaust-yet he feels the AFR 205's are "too much" for a stock motor? He feels he can pull the heads, put on some stock heads with minor work and outpower the AFR's.
Now I don't know everyhting but i've been around the block a bit and have used AFR heads and alot of other heads-and the AFR's have outpowered everyhting-hell as soon a I pop a gasket on my current combo AFR's are going on instantly!
Let's here your thoughts!
Now I don't know everyhting but i've been around the block a bit and have used AFR heads and alot of other heads-and the AFR's have outpowered everyhting-hell as soon a I pop a gasket on my current combo AFR's are going on instantly!
Let's here your thoughts!
07-31-2007, 09:33 AM
#3
Tell your "guru" that the LS1 isn't a conventional SBC. He is thinking that 205cc is waaaaaay too much port volume for a street driven ~350cid engine. Well, on an LT1, L98, or conventional SBC with 23-degree heads it probably is or at least is less than ideal for a street car.
However, LS1 heads are around 200cc and LS6 heads are 210cc because they are 15-degree heads with rolled valves that produce a straighter shot from the manifold to the combustion chamber. This valve rolling produces a larger total volume, but it does not increase the cross-sectional area, which keeps the port velocity very high. The AFR 205s are very good at velocity - designed to be even better than the stock heads while providing an increase in flow.
AFR 205s on a stock LS6 engine (no cam - just headers and LS6 manifold) will provide a solid 20rwhp with no increase in compression. That's because it fills the cylinder better due to the better tumble, swirl, and velocity properties the AFR heads exhibit.
However, LS1 heads are around 200cc and LS6 heads are 210cc because they are 15-degree heads with rolled valves that produce a straighter shot from the manifold to the combustion chamber. This valve rolling produces a larger total volume, but it does not increase the cross-sectional area, which keeps the port velocity very high. The AFR 205s are very good at velocity - designed to be even better than the stock heads while providing an increase in flow.
AFR 205s on a stock LS6 engine (no cam - just headers and LS6 manifold) will provide a solid 20rwhp with no increase in compression. That's because it fills the cylinder better due to the better tumble, swirl, and velocity properties the AFR heads exhibit.
07-31-2007, 09:44 AM
#4
Originally Posted by JakeFusion™
Tell your "guru" that the LS1 isn't a conventional SBC. He is thinking that 205cc is waaaaaay too much port volume for a street driven ~350cid engine. Well, on an LT1, L98, or conventional SBC with 23-degree heads it probably is or at least is less than ideal for a street car.
However, LS1 heads are around 200cc and LS6 heads are 210cc because they are 15-degree heads with rolled valves that produce a straighter shot from the manifold to the combustion chamber. This valve rolling produces a larger total volume, but it does not increase the cross-sectional area, which keeps the port velocity very high. The AFR 205s are very good at velocity - designed to be even better than the stock heads while providing an increase in flow.
AFR 205s on a stock LS6 engine (no cam - just headers and LS6 manifold) will provide a solid 20rwhp with no increase in compression. That's because it fills the cylinder better due to the better tumble, swirl, and velocity properties the AFR heads exhibit.
However, LS1 heads are around 200cc and LS6 heads are 210cc because they are 15-degree heads with rolled valves that produce a straighter shot from the manifold to the combustion chamber. This valve rolling produces a larger total volume, but it does not increase the cross-sectional area, which keeps the port velocity very high. The AFR 205s are very good at velocity - designed to be even better than the stock heads while providing an increase in flow.
AFR 205s on a stock LS6 engine (no cam - just headers and LS6 manifold) will provide a solid 20rwhp with no increase in compression. That's because it fills the cylinder better due to the better tumble, swirl, and velocity properties the AFR heads exhibit.
__________________
2013 Corvette Grand Sport A6 LME forged 416, Greg Good ported TFS 255 LS3 heads, 222/242 .629"/.604" 121LSA Pat G blower cam, ARH 1 7/8" headers, ESC Novi 1500 Supercharger w/8 rib direct drive conversion, 747rwhp/709rwtq on 93 octane, 801rwhp/735rwtq on race fuel, 10.1 @ 147.25mph 1/4 mile, 174.7mph Half Mile.
2016 Corvette Z51 M7 Magnuson Heartbeat 2300 supercharger, TSP LT headers, Pat G tuned, 667rwhp, 662rwtq, 191mph TX Mile.
2009.5 Pontiac G8 GT 6.0L, A6, AFR 230v2 heads. 506rwhp/442rwtq. 11.413 @ 121.29mph 1/4 mile, 168.7mph TX Mile
2000 Pewter Ram Air Trans Am M6 heads/cam 508 rwhp/445 rwtq SAE, 183.092 TX Mile
2018 Cadillac Escalade 6.2L A10 Pat G tuned.
LS1,LS2,LS3,LS7,LT1 Custom Camshaft Specialist For custom camshaft help press here.
Custom LSX tuning in person or via email press here.
2013 Corvette Grand Sport A6 LME forged 416, Greg Good ported TFS 255 LS3 heads, 222/242 .629"/.604" 121LSA Pat G blower cam, ARH 1 7/8" headers, ESC Novi 1500 Supercharger w/8 rib direct drive conversion, 747rwhp/709rwtq on 93 octane, 801rwhp/735rwtq on race fuel, 10.1 @ 147.25mph 1/4 mile, 174.7mph Half Mile.
2016 Corvette Z51 M7 Magnuson Heartbeat 2300 supercharger, TSP LT headers, Pat G tuned, 667rwhp, 662rwtq, 191mph TX Mile.
2009.5 Pontiac G8 GT 6.0L, A6, AFR 230v2 heads. 506rwhp/442rwtq. 11.413 @ 121.29mph 1/4 mile, 168.7mph TX Mile
2000 Pewter Ram Air Trans Am M6 heads/cam 508 rwhp/445 rwtq SAE, 183.092 TX Mile
2018 Cadillac Escalade 6.2L A10 Pat G tuned.
LS1,LS2,LS3,LS7,LT1 Custom Camshaft Specialist For custom camshaft help press here.
Custom LSX tuning in person or via email press here.
07-31-2007, 10:03 AM
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Well this is the scoop-I sold my AFR heads and a 230/234 114+4 XER cam to a local guy. I flycut his pistons and installed the heads, he added QTP headers, intake plugs etc-and finished off the install. He didn't put 1670 stat, in a set of fresh plugs, change the fuel filter do a pcv catch can like I asked.The car made 430/405 on the dyno-heat soaked-anyway. This guy says, who currently owns the car that he can pull the heads-put on a stock set of heads and make more power than the AFR's-I say BS, he says he'll bet me $2000.
My response was, get a third party to do a leakdown and compression test, change plugs, fuel filter, 160 stat, oil and add a pcv catchcan-I'll foot the bill-this is to make sure the car is in 100% operating conmdition.
Take it to the dyno and redyno the car
Then he can pull the heads and redyno the car with the stock heads on the same dyno.
His response is he will just go by the #'s it originally produced instead of redynoing it.
My response was, get a third party to do a leakdown and compression test, change plugs, fuel filter, 160 stat, oil and add a pcv catchcan-I'll foot the bill-this is to make sure the car is in 100% operating conmdition.
Take it to the dyno and redyno the car
Then he can pull the heads and redyno the car with the stock heads on the same dyno.
His response is he will just go by the #'s it originally produced instead of redynoing it.
07-31-2007, 11:30 AM
#6
Originally Posted by eb02z06
Well this is the scoop-I sold my AFR heads and a 230/234 114+4 XER cam to a local guy. I flycut his pistons and installed the heads, he added QTP headers, intake plugs etc-and finished off the install. He didn't put 1670 stat, in a set of fresh plugs, change the fuel filter do a pcv catch can like I asked.The car made 430/405 on the dyno-heat soaked-anyway. This guy says, who currently owns the car that he can pull the heads-put on a stock set of heads and make more power than the AFR's-I say BS, he says he'll bet me $2000.
My response was, get a third party to do a leakdown and compression test, change plugs, fuel filter, 160 stat, oil and add a pcv catchcan-I'll foot the bill-this is to make sure the car is in 100% operating conmdition.
Take it to the dyno and redyno the car
Then he can pull the heads and redyno the car with the stock heads on the same dyno.
His response is he will just go by the #'s it originally produced instead of redynoing it.
My response was, get a third party to do a leakdown and compression test, change plugs, fuel filter, 160 stat, oil and add a pcv catchcan-I'll foot the bill-this is to make sure the car is in 100% operating conmdition.
Take it to the dyno and redyno the car
Then he can pull the heads and redyno the car with the stock heads on the same dyno.
His response is he will just go by the #'s it originally produced instead of redynoing it.
You called his bluff and he backed right down.
07-31-2007, 11:57 AM
#7
I hope your not enlisting the help of this local guru anytime soon....
He's either seriously mis-informed or trying to make more money selling you a set of stock heads with a fluff and buff that there is alot more profit in (or BOTH).
I hear about (on the phone) and read about comments like this from time to time and can't help but to shake my head and laugh.
Jake Fusion's post was spot on. We are offering a cylinder head with the same or less volume than stock that flows 50-70 CFM more increasing airspeed and efficiency in a huge way. You will not only pick up a bunch or power but you will also get better fuel economy and less emissions at the same time.
If you were considering bolting on a cylinder head with 40+ additional cc's of port volume, that would provide you with mediocre results at best (in a mainly stock engine), but of all the available aftermarket head choices on the planet, the AFR 205 is about as good as it gets for what you describe. A small port that flows lots of air is just what the doctor ordered be it a mild combination or a wild combination, but especially in a mild combination.
Tell the guru to try and peddle his theory somewhere else....He would probably pick up some good tech just spending a little time on this board.
If you have any direct questions specific to your combination feel free to either PM me or pick up the phone. My number here is (661)257-8124 Ext. 109
Good luck with the project....buy those 205's....you wont be disappointed.
Tony
He's either seriously mis-informed or trying to make more money selling you a set of stock heads with a fluff and buff that there is alot more profit in (or BOTH).
I hear about (on the phone) and read about comments like this from time to time and can't help but to shake my head and laugh.
Jake Fusion's post was spot on. We are offering a cylinder head with the same or less volume than stock that flows 50-70 CFM more increasing airspeed and efficiency in a huge way. You will not only pick up a bunch or power but you will also get better fuel economy and less emissions at the same time.
If you were considering bolting on a cylinder head with 40+ additional cc's of port volume, that would provide you with mediocre results at best (in a mainly stock engine), but of all the available aftermarket head choices on the planet, the AFR 205 is about as good as it gets for what you describe. A small port that flows lots of air is just what the doctor ordered be it a mild combination or a wild combination, but especially in a mild combination.
Tell the guru to try and peddle his theory somewhere else....He would probably pick up some good tech just spending a little time on this board.
If you have any direct questions specific to your combination feel free to either PM me or pick up the phone. My number here is (661)257-8124 Ext. 109
Good luck with the project....buy those 205's....you wont be disappointed.
Tony
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07-31-2007, 01:27 PM
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Originally Posted by Tony Mamo @ AFR
I hope your not enlisting the help of this local guru anytime soon....
He's either seriously mis-informed or trying to make more money selling you a set of stock heads with a fluff and buff that there is alot more profit in (or BOTH).
I hear about (on the phone) and read about comments like this from time to time and can't help but to shake my head and laugh.
Jake Fusion's post was spot on. We are offering a cylinder head with the same or less volume than stock that flows 50-70 CFM more increasing airspeed and efficiency in a huge way. You will not only pick up a bunch or power but you will also get better fuel economy and less emissions at the same time.
If you were considering bolting on a cylinder head with 40+ additional cc's of port volume, that would provide you with mediocre results at best (in a mainly stock engine), but of all the available aftermarket head choices on the planet, the AFR 205 is about as good as it gets for what you describe. A small port that flows lots of air is just what the doctor ordered be it a mild combination or a wild combination, but especially in a mild combination.
Tell the guru to try and peddle his theory somewhere else....He would probably pick up some good tech just spending a little time on this board.
If you have any direct questions specific to your combination feel free to either PM me or pick up the phone. My number here is (661)257-8124 Ext. 109
Good luck with the project....buy those 205's....you wont be disappointed.
Tony
He's either seriously mis-informed or trying to make more money selling you a set of stock heads with a fluff and buff that there is alot more profit in (or BOTH).
I hear about (on the phone) and read about comments like this from time to time and can't help but to shake my head and laugh.
Jake Fusion's post was spot on. We are offering a cylinder head with the same or less volume than stock that flows 50-70 CFM more increasing airspeed and efficiency in a huge way. You will not only pick up a bunch or power but you will also get better fuel economy and less emissions at the same time.
If you were considering bolting on a cylinder head with 40+ additional cc's of port volume, that would provide you with mediocre results at best (in a mainly stock engine), but of all the available aftermarket head choices on the planet, the AFR 205 is about as good as it gets for what you describe. A small port that flows lots of air is just what the doctor ordered be it a mild combination or a wild combination, but especially in a mild combination.
Tell the guru to try and peddle his theory somewhere else....He would probably pick up some good tech just spending a little time on this board.
If you have any direct questions specific to your combination feel free to either PM me or pick up the phone. My number here is (661)257-8124 Ext. 109
Good luck with the project....buy those 205's....you wont be disappointed.
Tony
So I've asked him, to bring the car back to the local dyno and I'll pay to have the plugs, filter all the little things fixed and make a pull on the same dyno the cam only car made 411 to see what the AFr combo does on the same dyno.
No go-he says the 430 from a few years back is good enough and that he can pull those ehads-put on a set of stockers with some work and make more power.
Glaring issue is 2 different dyno's, 2 different results-the 2 cars should be dyno'd on the same dyno, same day period!
07-31-2007, 02:16 PM
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Well, I'm cam and bolt-ons only. Startin to look for heads (not yet, but soon), and this thread is swaying me toward the AFR 205's
...coming from Patrick G. -Got me sold.
Originally Posted by Patrick G
The testing done by Vinci, Thunder and LG have consistently shown the AFR 205s to give a 40 rwhp gain over stock heads with no other changes. Even with stock exhaust manifolds and cats.
07-31-2007, 04:05 PM
#11
Originally Posted by JakeFusion™
Patrick... I'm talking 20rwhp with the STOCK cam.
It's 40+rwhp over LS6 heads with a cam of any kind and even more over LS1.
It's 40+rwhp over LS6 heads with a cam of any kind and even more over LS1.
__________________
2013 Corvette Grand Sport A6 LME forged 416, Greg Good ported TFS 255 LS3 heads, 222/242 .629"/.604" 121LSA Pat G blower cam, ARH 1 7/8" headers, ESC Novi 1500 Supercharger w/8 rib direct drive conversion, 747rwhp/709rwtq on 93 octane, 801rwhp/735rwtq on race fuel, 10.1 @ 147.25mph 1/4 mile, 174.7mph Half Mile.
2016 Corvette Z51 M7 Magnuson Heartbeat 2300 supercharger, TSP LT headers, Pat G tuned, 667rwhp, 662rwtq, 191mph TX Mile.
2009.5 Pontiac G8 GT 6.0L, A6, AFR 230v2 heads. 506rwhp/442rwtq. 11.413 @ 121.29mph 1/4 mile, 168.7mph TX Mile
2000 Pewter Ram Air Trans Am M6 heads/cam 508 rwhp/445 rwtq SAE, 183.092 TX Mile
2018 Cadillac Escalade 6.2L A10 Pat G tuned.
LS1,LS2,LS3,LS7,LT1 Custom Camshaft Specialist For custom camshaft help press here.
Custom LSX tuning in person or via email press here.
2013 Corvette Grand Sport A6 LME forged 416, Greg Good ported TFS 255 LS3 heads, 222/242 .629"/.604" 121LSA Pat G blower cam, ARH 1 7/8" headers, ESC Novi 1500 Supercharger w/8 rib direct drive conversion, 747rwhp/709rwtq on 93 octane, 801rwhp/735rwtq on race fuel, 10.1 @ 147.25mph 1/4 mile, 174.7mph Half Mile.
2016 Corvette Z51 M7 Magnuson Heartbeat 2300 supercharger, TSP LT headers, Pat G tuned, 667rwhp, 662rwtq, 191mph TX Mile.
2009.5 Pontiac G8 GT 6.0L, A6, AFR 230v2 heads. 506rwhp/442rwtq. 11.413 @ 121.29mph 1/4 mile, 168.7mph TX Mile
2000 Pewter Ram Air Trans Am M6 heads/cam 508 rwhp/445 rwtq SAE, 183.092 TX Mile
2018 Cadillac Escalade 6.2L A10 Pat G tuned.
LS1,LS2,LS3,LS7,LT1 Custom Camshaft Specialist For custom camshaft help press here.
Custom LSX tuning in person or via email press here.
07-31-2007, 05:09 PM
#13
Originally Posted by Patrick G
And I'm talking 40 rwhp gain with the stock cam. This is what Vinci, Thunder and LG tested 3 years ago. No changes, just swap heads on a stock LS1 short block and get a 40 rwhp gain. I would agree that the AFR 205s would give you a 20 rwhp gain over stock LS6 heads with stock LS6 cam though.
Typical gains on a bonestocker (no other mods) have been 35-40 HP over an LS1 casting.....20-25 over the LS6 which are obviously much better flowing pieces right out of the box (about a 20-25 CFM improvement with a 10 cc larger port....211 cc's versus 201 cc's).
07-31-2007, 05:39 PM
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http://vincihighperformance.com/BECK...CT%20PAGE.HTML
here's the vinci testing. 2003 C5 completely stock. swapped heads, no tuning.
tell that local 'engine guru' to pond sand.
if i didn't already have my vinci CNC ported heads, i would have gotten the AFR for my 408.
here's the vinci testing. 2003 C5 completely stock. swapped heads, no tuning.
tell that local 'engine guru' to pond sand.
if i didn't already have my vinci CNC ported heads, i would have gotten the AFR for my 408.
07-31-2007, 07:05 PM
#16
Originally Posted by Patrick G
And I'm talking 40 rwhp gain with the stock cam. This is what Vinci, Thunder and LG tested 3 years ago. No changes, just swap heads on a stock LS1 short block and get a 40 rwhp gain. I would agree that the AFR 205s would give you a 20 rwhp gain over stock LS6 heads with stock LS6 cam though.
07-31-2007, 07:20 PM
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So he made 430rwhp with stock LS1 heads in the past?? How FN big of a cam did he use... 
430rwhp with a small 230/234 114+4 XER cam and AFR heads doesn't sound bad. Add a ported Fast 90 aon a cooler day I bet he would see 460rhwp...
430rwhp with a small 230/234 114+4 XER cam and AFR heads doesn't sound bad. Add a ported Fast 90 aon a cooler day I bet he would see 460rhwp... 