Tram

iTrader: (14)

Ok..

I am down to the last 2 items for my H/C swap..

1.) Gaskets..

I am pretty sure I am going to go with GM MLS Gaskets.. See no real reason not to.. My car is not a strip car.. I think the GM gaskets will be fine..

Next item...

2.) Head Bolts..

Now, this is down to the ARP Head Bolts or GM Head bolts..

I do not plan (that is the plan at least) on removing the heads EVER again.. I'm not into racing, etc.. Once the H/C is done, I hope (again that is the plan) to leave the engine alone..

Now..

I've been trying to decide between $40 dollar bolts and $150 dollar bolts..

While I can afford the ARP bolts, I see no reason to spend the money if I don't HAVE to spend the money.. I mean, If I wanted to blow and extra $100 bucks I could find much more creative ways than spending it on bolts..

So.. From what I can tell, the BIGGEST thing for my situation that the ARP's have over the GM's is that they are a "torque and forget about" type deal..

Torque'em all down @30lbs...
Torque'em again @50lbs..
Torque'em again @70lbs..
Done..

While with the GM bolts you gotta:

Torque'em to 22lbs..
Turn all 10 15mm bolts an additional 90 degrees...
Then turn bolts 1 through 8 another 90 degrees...
Then turn bolts 9 and 10 an additional 50 degrees...
and finally torque bolts 11 through 15 to 22 lb-ft...

Is that the gist? Would the ARP's hold any other value FOR ME other the perceived ease of install?

Are they less likely to shear versus the GM bolts with all the twists and turns?

Like I said, I don't mind buying the ARP's if I *NEED* them.. The way I see it, many guys are using GM bolts and their cars are doing just fine.. My current GM bolts have lasted me 84K so far, albeit at less power...

Anyone want to convince me I need the ARPS?

Jeff

JRracing

iTrader: (35)

I would always use better bolts. An engine is only as good as it's parts. But you may be fine with the stockers. Since you will not be taking it apart again unless something happens.

BIG_MIKE2005

iTrader: (116)

I just used some new stockers & didn't have a single problem. When I go to a forged short block, I'll switch to ARP bolts sinice it'll see some spray.

69LT1Bird

iTrader: (1)

Stock bolts are fine. If you go to SDparts.com you can get them even cheaper.

slow trap

iTrader: (22)

i really didn't like the degree method. some of the bolts were very hard to get the ratchet turned anywhere near 90 degrees at one time without reversing it. arp bolts/studs are much stronger and a heck alot easier to install.

BIG_MIKE2005

iTrader: (116)

What made them so hard to install?? I didn't have any problems & my motor stayed in the car. There was plenty of room to stand in the engine bay in front of the motor & get to the heads/bolts. As long as you have a good torque wrench & the right extensions, it shouldn't be a problem.

69LT1Bird

iTrader: (1)

As long as your not spraying the heck out of it or blowing on it the stock GM head bolts are fine, they can even take some of that since the factory puts superchargers on. I am pretty sure that GM has a couple of years of experience in designing the engines so they will last. ARP bolts are great but the hype is as big as the price on a street engine. Race engines are a whole different thing.

DSRCAM

iTrader: (3)

make sure u clean the cylinder bolt holes, i broke a bolt way inside the hole and now i have to take the motor out and to a machine shop so yea but gm bolts are fine but the holes need to be clean..

Asmodeus

I would go ARP.. if the head gaskets don't seal for some reason, you'll be buying new bolts when you pull the heads again. You can reuse the ARP's.

The Alchemist

iTrader: (19)

I thought the same thing... I'm not a racer, and I don't see myself pulling the heads ever again. Well, I snapped a header bolt, stripped another, so I had to have the bolt holes drilled, filled, and rethreaded so the head came off. I decided to go with studs because if I everhave to pull them again, I won't have to clean another bolt hole, and torquing to a specific torque ft/lb is easier than a degree angle in my oppinion. On top of that, studs don't stress the block like bolts do.

So a better question is why would you go with ARP bolts at all. I say either go cheap and get the GM torque to yeild bolts, or spend the money right and go for studs. Studs are just future insurance.

69LT1Bird

iTrader: (1)

First I need to figure out how a MLS head gasket some how leaks upon initial torqueing of the heads. I have seen this in a few threads and I am amazed that this happens.

The header bolt thing, I guess you should have bought ARP header bolts so they wouldn't break.

Do you reuse your head gaskets? I didn't think so, GM bolts are even cheaper than head gaskets per head. Like I said, run them if you want but for a street car they are not needed. Do you actually think that ARP knows more about the structural strength and metallurgy of the engine block than the actual manufacturer? Torqueing in three steps or torqueing in one step plus 3-4 angles isn't much different.

Ws6man2000

iTrader: (24)

well i am tearing my setup back down and will never use stockers again!!!! Reason for teardown bad headgasket i hope

Blorton

iTrader: (2)

I'd go with the ARPs. While you technically don't need them, and don't plan to ever go into the heads again, they will sure be nice if you do.

I see it as being a lot like buying road hazard insurance on your tires. Sure, you might go through the entire lifetime of them without ever picking up a nail, but if you do - life is a lot easier.

Dan

Asmodeus

No, but I think ARP isn't as concerned about cost as the actual manufacturer. The bolts are different. GM headbolts are Torque-to-yield. Once they stretch, that's it, they're done, game over. ARP headbolts are not, and can be reused.

3.4camaro

iTrader: (1)

I thought we'd been through this already. You made a thread about this exact same topic a couple weeks ago.

Swallow the $100 for peace of mind.

The Alchemist

iTrader: (19)

I never said my headgaskets leaked.... and if you read my post, I don't reccomend going with ARP head bolts. I say if you are concerned about clamping load, and torquing procedure, go straight to the studs for another $50-$60 over the head bolts.

And yes, I should have gone with header studs from the beggining, but you live and learn, and I'm trying to give someone else useful advice that I've learn through mistakes I've made.


Working with all alluminum items, from the block to the heads, you'd be surprised how easy it is to strip a bolt or break a bolt in a head or block. Don't beleive me, watch this area and the external engine for how often you see posts on how to remove broken bolts.

Personally, I like knowing that when I bolted down my heads this past time, I didn't stress the block nearly as much as if I had used torque to yeild bolts or ARP bolts. If you're going through the hassle of pulling the heads, buck up and buy a set of studs and call it a day.

Thimble

iTrader: (2)

1) GM MLS gaskets are great, IF their thickness serves your compression and quench needs.
After all the money spent on heads/cam (and all the supporting parts), I wouldn't let $100 stop me from achieving optimum compression and quench


2) GM head bolts are fine too. They work, they're cheap, what's to complain about?
I used ARP studs, not because I plan to change heads often, but because studs/nuts deliver more direct clamping force for a given tq value than those long bolts do. 70 lbs/ft on a bolt is not clamping your heads down near as tightly as 70lbs on a nut is. It was piece of mind for me, especially given the reputation Cometic gaskets have for not being as forgiving in terms of potential leakage.

For all your justifying of the cheaper parts, you seemed to not mention some of the real advantages to the more expensive stuff.

slow trap

iTrader: (22)

i was using a torque wrench and extensions but i wasn't using a swivel. on the back few the ratchet hits the firewall before i was able to get a 90 degree turn,it came close but still not 90 degrees. also the more extensions and stuff you use the less accurate you will be. just my $02 from my own experience so if other people didn't have the same problem as me i guess i obviously didn't use the same tools as another person.

Tram

iTrader: (14)

Yeh, well indecision is a mother, isn't it...

Anyway, I found a great deal on some ARP head bolts today, NIP for a price I am willing to pay.. So.. I'm going ARP head Bolts..

Snyper

iTrader: (27)

I used GM headbolts once and will NEVER again just cuz of the hassle..