Tapping relative to RPM
02-20-2008, 11:45 AM
#1
Launching!
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Tapping relative to RPM Occassionally I get a tapping noise that seems to come from the driver's side of the engine. When it comes I can rev the engine and it will get faster with higher RPM and slower with lower RPM. It is not constant, I can start the car and it won't be there but after say 15-20 minutes of driving it might appear and then go away after a minute or 2. My oil pressure doesn't seem to be affected by it and the performance of the vehicle doesn't seem affected either?
This didn't appear till I did a headswap, I put PRC 5.3L Stage 2.5 heads and I also put in a set of ls7 lifters. Over a year ago I put in a TSP 233/239 cam and LS6 ported oil pump, this noise only appeared after the headswap.
I called TSP about it and they said it wasn't the lifters because it wasn't constant. They had me check the preload on the rockers/pushrods and the length of the pushrods are ok and all the rockers are fine as far as I can see. TSP's only suggestion was that it might be the o'ring on the oil pickup tube where it goes into the oil pump.
Does anyone else have any thoughts on this? Truthfully it seems like a lifter to me, which I hope it isn't. These ls7 lifters have less than 200 miles on them since I put them in...
This didn't appear till I did a headswap, I put PRC 5.3L Stage 2.5 heads and I also put in a set of ls7 lifters. Over a year ago I put in a TSP 233/239 cam and LS6 ported oil pump, this noise only appeared after the headswap.
I called TSP about it and they said it wasn't the lifters because it wasn't constant. They had me check the preload on the rockers/pushrods and the length of the pushrods are ok and all the rockers are fine as far as I can see. TSP's only suggestion was that it might be the o'ring on the oil pickup tube where it goes into the oil pump.
Does anyone else have any thoughts on this? Truthfully it seems like a lifter to me, which I hope it isn't. These ls7 lifters have less than 200 miles on them since I put them in...
04-17-2008, 11:03 AM
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Launching!
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Can anyone give me some input on this? I have maybe 500 miles on the car since the head/lifter swap and the noise is still there. I want this noise to disappear!!!
04-17-2008, 11:26 AM
#3
Suscribing. I would love to to know if the tapping is caused by the o-ring as suggested by TSP, Was there more to the explanation than that. Maybe you didnt type all the info they said over the phone to you?
My guess as to what they might have meant by that is ( and only going by what you stated) is that : If you dont get the oil-pick up tube o-ring seated properly you could be having and oiling issue... low pressure.. did they ask you to check your oil pressure? How is it? if your oil pressure is good, I'm not sure how the o-ring can cause a tapping noise. (thats why in would love to find out, free knowledge)
Tapping can be one of a hundred things , you need to narrow it down better. Locate the section its coming from first, upper or lower to narrow it down.
I had a taping noise once. It was the same, went fast and slower with the rpm.
People thought is was bearing this that and the other thing as it was semi loud at times.
I was my high flow cat coming apart. the substrate was moving and raping against the wall of the pipe which was then resonating throughout the whole system. Stainless headers and Y conduct noise well..lol
You need to narrow it down a bit. Seems more likey that since you didnt have it pre h/c swap that its related to the swap. OR was it there previous?
My guess as to what they might have meant by that is ( and only going by what you stated) is that : If you dont get the oil-pick up tube o-ring seated properly you could be having and oiling issue... low pressure.. did they ask you to check your oil pressure? How is it? if your oil pressure is good, I'm not sure how the o-ring can cause a tapping noise. (thats why in would love to find out, free knowledge)
Tapping can be one of a hundred things , you need to narrow it down better. Locate the section its coming from first, upper or lower to narrow it down.
I had a taping noise once. It was the same, went fast and slower with the rpm.
People thought is was bearing this that and the other thing as it was semi loud at times.
I was my high flow cat coming apart. the substrate was moving and raping against the wall of the pipe which was then resonating throughout the whole system. Stainless headers and Y conduct noise well..lol
You need to narrow it down a bit. Seems more likey that since you didnt have it pre h/c swap that its related to the swap. OR was it there previous?
Last edited by 99blancoSS; 04-17-2008 at 11:35 AM.
04-17-2008, 12:03 PM
#4
Launching!
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OK let me clarify a few things.
November of 2006 is when I installed the 233/239 cam and TSP LS6 ported oil pump. No problems, put down 406/374 on the dyno through the 9".
In September of 2007 I installed:
PRC 5.3L Stage 2.5 Heads w/ Stock graphite gaskets and ARP head bolts
LS7 Lifters(not the cadillac racing)
ASP Underdrive pulley
RAM Powergrip HD Clutch(has been reinstalled to fix a rear main seal in January 2008)
Ported Throttlebody & TB Coolant bypass kit
Prior to installed the heads there was no noise. The noise appeared after I installed the heads. I called TSP the day I was scheduled to get a dyno tune and cancelled because on the drive up there the noise appeared and it was loud and I was scared it would grenade if I didn't turn back.
TSP had me check the lifter preload and said the pushrods were correct length for the setup. They told me to run a 20w50 oil and see if that helped. I put the 20w50 in and drove it once a day for about a week letting it get hot and cold etc and the noise didn't come back. I didn't like the 20w50 cause it took literally probably 5-10 seconds for oil pressure to come up. So I went back to 10w30. I shouldn't have to run a thicker oil... that just seems like a temporary way to get rid of the noise the problem is still there.
I torqued down the rockers properly, got the engine hot, then retorqued them just as you are supposed to. The engine has maybe 500 miles on it since the head swap...
Oil pressure is fine, right at or right under 40 at warm idle, higher at cold idle. On the throttle at all it goes up as it should. When the noise appears though, the oil pressure seems on the lower side, around 35 or right under. The car runs fine, I can blip the throttle and loose traction at 40mph when the noise isn't there and it behaves the same way even when the noise IS there.
I don't have cats so my noise can't possibly be the same as yours. I know it's not an exhaust leak because I can tell its on the driver side of the engine and I checked all my header bolts etc..
It sounds exactly like this video except mine isn't quite that extreme ALL the time, it gets that loud when i'm on the highway but at idle mine isn't THAT loud at idle(could be the video or that the video was taken at cold idle though).
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=r0aQd...eature=related
TSP claims everytime that I call them that it is NOT a lifter if it goes away and comes back. Personally I think its a lifter that isn't pumping up all the way and then sometimes will pump up. I am really stumped. We get out of school in about 2-3 weeks and after that I am probably going to pull the whole motor out and take off the heads and check out the lifters as well as install rod bolts and a k-member that has been sitting in my closet for 5-6 months.
I don't have a clue what else it could be... the heads came with PRC dual springs and I reused my tsp 7.4" hardended push rods and I am using stock rockers. The rockers show no signs of a problem at the contact points and the tops of the valve stems look fine.
November of 2006 is when I installed the 233/239 cam and TSP LS6 ported oil pump. No problems, put down 406/374 on the dyno through the 9".
In September of 2007 I installed:
PRC 5.3L Stage 2.5 Heads w/ Stock graphite gaskets and ARP head bolts
LS7 Lifters(not the cadillac racing)
ASP Underdrive pulley
RAM Powergrip HD Clutch(has been reinstalled to fix a rear main seal in January 2008)
Ported Throttlebody & TB Coolant bypass kit
Prior to installed the heads there was no noise. The noise appeared after I installed the heads. I called TSP the day I was scheduled to get a dyno tune and cancelled because on the drive up there the noise appeared and it was loud and I was scared it would grenade if I didn't turn back.
TSP had me check the lifter preload and said the pushrods were correct length for the setup. They told me to run a 20w50 oil and see if that helped. I put the 20w50 in and drove it once a day for about a week letting it get hot and cold etc and the noise didn't come back. I didn't like the 20w50 cause it took literally probably 5-10 seconds for oil pressure to come up. So I went back to 10w30. I shouldn't have to run a thicker oil... that just seems like a temporary way to get rid of the noise the problem is still there.
I torqued down the rockers properly, got the engine hot, then retorqued them just as you are supposed to. The engine has maybe 500 miles on it since the head swap...
Oil pressure is fine, right at or right under 40 at warm idle, higher at cold idle. On the throttle at all it goes up as it should. When the noise appears though, the oil pressure seems on the lower side, around 35 or right under. The car runs fine, I can blip the throttle and loose traction at 40mph when the noise isn't there and it behaves the same way even when the noise IS there.
I don't have cats so my noise can't possibly be the same as yours. I know it's not an exhaust leak because I can tell its on the driver side of the engine and I checked all my header bolts etc..
It sounds exactly like this video except mine isn't quite that extreme ALL the time, it gets that loud when i'm on the highway but at idle mine isn't THAT loud at idle(could be the video or that the video was taken at cold idle though).
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=r0aQd...eature=related
TSP claims everytime that I call them that it is NOT a lifter if it goes away and comes back. Personally I think its a lifter that isn't pumping up all the way and then sometimes will pump up. I am really stumped. We get out of school in about 2-3 weeks and after that I am probably going to pull the whole motor out and take off the heads and check out the lifters as well as install rod bolts and a k-member that has been sitting in my closet for 5-6 months.
I don't have a clue what else it could be... the heads came with PRC dual springs and I reused my tsp 7.4" hardended push rods and I am using stock rockers. The rockers show no signs of a problem at the contact points and the tops of the valve stems look fine.
04-17-2008, 12:30 PM
#5
Wow, that vid is horrendous sounding. Ok, I'm with you. That sounds lifter'ish
No way for TSP to be able to tell what that is over the phone though, or anyone for that matter. I'm sure they were trying to help you as best they can.
No way for TSP to be able to tell what that is over the phone though, or anyone for that matter. I'm sure they were trying to help you as best they can.
Last edited by 99blancoSS; 04-17-2008 at 03:07 PM.
04-18-2008, 12:43 AM
#7
LSxGuy widda 9sec Mustang
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Was this a LS6 ported pump by us? If so, what was your oil pressure before the pump, vs. the oil pressure now? There should be a 10-15psi increase. If there was no increase in pressure then its possible the oil pump o-ring isn't making a complete seal and pulling crankcase air vapors along with the oil. Sometimes the oil will have really small air bubbles after running for a while like that. Lifters work off oil pressure, not oil/air pressure, lifters with pockets of air will be noisy. That's easier to check than just replacing lifters and it will rule out that as a possible option. The oil pressure drops 5psi and it gets noisy? 35psi doesn't sound like whats typical of our pumps. I'd say more like 45-50 is more along the lines of what I see normally on a stock shortblock.
What was the preload when you checked? Curious to if you have a double roller chain as that makes the pickup tube not exactly centered in the pump housing. (unless you tweak the pickup tube bracket the same amount as the oil pump spacers).
What was the preload when you checked? Curious to if you have a double roller chain as that makes the pickup tube not exactly centered in the pump housing. (unless you tweak the pickup tube bracket the same amount as the oil pump spacers).
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04-20-2008, 11:32 AM
#8
Launching!
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Yes it is a TSP ls6 ported oil pump but like I said it was installed about a year and a half ago. This sound appeared only maybe 5-6 months ago when I installed the heads and lifters. I don't have a double roller timing chain just an ls2 timing chain. At idle my oil pressure is 35-40 psi according to the stock gauge.
How would I go about checking for air bubbles? Pull the valve covers after running it or just checking the dipstick? Or would I have to completely drain the oil?
How would I go about checking for air bubbles? Pull the valve covers after running it or just checking the dipstick? Or would I have to completely drain the oil?
04-20-2008, 12:00 PM
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I am by no means an expert, but I would actualy measure the lifter preload.
With a dial indicator. To be 100% sure it is correct. You can buy a inexpensive mag base and 1" travel indicator on the net. from a industrial tool supply company.
Changing heads can change the preload.
With a dial indicator. To be 100% sure it is correct. You can buy a inexpensive mag base and 1" travel indicator on the net. from a industrial tool supply company.
Changing heads can change the preload.
04-20-2008, 07:53 PM
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Launching!
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i also have a tapping noise that i think is related to the lifters i had a problem with the car in january and pulled the motor out and replaced the lifters then and ever since i have had a tapping noise, but i called tsp and they said its gotta be something else other than the lifters. its getting to the point that im gonna pull the heads and replace the lifters just a big hassle to replace such a small thing, its aggervating as hell trust me i know what you mean.
04-20-2008, 08:36 PM
#12
I have a tapping noise that only happens after the car sits overnight or through the work day after I drive about 2 miles as the temp gets just before normal. When it starts, there's no doubt something isn't right. It lasts for about 20-30 seconds, the quits and doesn't do it again. Mine started after having my F14 HL cam, LS2 timing chain, and ported OE pump on. Just heard it again Friday even after having heads, LS7 lifters, etc installed. I would say it's safe to say mine is either: cam, timing chain (harmonic imbalance suggested by someone at Thunder Racing), or the oil pump. I too do not see any change in oil pressure on the dash gauge when it happens. We replaced my lifters and of course, couldn't slap stock heads back on trying to fix this tapping. Sucks huh?
I guess it really isn't hurting anything, but it drives me nuts.
I guess it really isn't hurting anything, but it drives me nuts.
04-30-2008, 01:50 AM
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+1 here stainless long tubes on my car, same problem. I think the long tubes bring out the noises more of the alloy OHV engine. Mine has only 5000miles on it and comes from the drivers side bank also. Would love to know what it is as there are so many threads on the same problem.
In your case I would of thought it was lifter preload. Is the lifter preload meant to be .100 thou? Just curious thats all.
If the sound has gone since using a 20W50 it suggests that the lifters are liking the increase in oil pressure. Instead of 10W30 you could try a 15W40 to see if it quietens things down a bit. Without the need of going to thick. I know these are late model engines but still have "old technology" meaning light oils sometimes aren't the way to go.
After I ran my motor in I swapped from 10W30 to 5W40 full synthetic and I could hear an increase in engine noise afterwards. The stainless long tubes brought the noise out more. I took it back to the exhaust fitter. We put it on the hoist. Couldnt find any leaks, took it for a drive and he told me its not a leak, but a typical LS engine noise. I have not checked if it has a bent pushrod nor broken valve springs as it pulled good numbers on the dyno a few days before.
There are many posts upon this mystery, many have had spun bearings(i know this isnt the problem its a tick not a terrible knock) valve springs broken will cause topend misfire, bent pushrods similiar problems. So many people have pulled out the pushrods to find no problems.
I think(only an opinion) it may be related to the lifters, not a damaged lifter, but preload required or viscousity of oil used. Many people in Australia all use 20W50 in there LS1s with good results. My engine is new so I will step back up to a 10 40 or 15W40 good quality mineral oil to see if it quietens it down.
Running higher viscousity oil increases oil pressure and will be more stable under harder driving conditions, also runs cooler. Hence why it will quiet down a noisy lifter, any slight noise from a noisy lifter also amplifies.
What keeps me curious is that it is always the drivers bank,does a lifter become restricted on the driver side bank from adequate oil pressure?
In your case I would of thought it was lifter preload. Is the lifter preload meant to be .100 thou? Just curious thats all.
If the sound has gone since using a 20W50 it suggests that the lifters are liking the increase in oil pressure. Instead of 10W30 you could try a 15W40 to see if it quietens things down a bit. Without the need of going to thick. I know these are late model engines but still have "old technology" meaning light oils sometimes aren't the way to go.
After I ran my motor in I swapped from 10W30 to 5W40 full synthetic and I could hear an increase in engine noise afterwards. The stainless long tubes brought the noise out more. I took it back to the exhaust fitter. We put it on the hoist. Couldnt find any leaks, took it for a drive and he told me its not a leak, but a typical LS engine noise. I have not checked if it has a bent pushrod nor broken valve springs as it pulled good numbers on the dyno a few days before.
There are many posts upon this mystery, many have had spun bearings(i know this isnt the problem its a tick not a terrible knock) valve springs broken will cause topend misfire, bent pushrods similiar problems. So many people have pulled out the pushrods to find no problems.
I think(only an opinion) it may be related to the lifters, not a damaged lifter, but preload required or viscousity of oil used. Many people in Australia all use 20W50 in there LS1s with good results. My engine is new so I will step back up to a 10 40 or 15W40 good quality mineral oil to see if it quietens it down.
Running higher viscousity oil increases oil pressure and will be more stable under harder driving conditions, also runs cooler. Hence why it will quiet down a noisy lifter, any slight noise from a noisy lifter also amplifies.
What keeps me curious is that it is always the drivers bank,does a lifter become restricted on the driver side bank from adequate oil pressure?
