Just unsiezed LS1 after sitting for two years, need expert advice
06-29-2008, 02:52 PM
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Just unsiezed LS1 after sitting for two years, need expert advice Hello Everyone,
Well, it all started two years ago when I dropped my car (1998 Trans Am Ws6 M6) off at a shop to have the SLP headers installed with an electronic cutout and tune. To make a long story short, I left it there for about 5-6 weeks (before they touched it) where it sat out in their parking lot. Upon driving up there to pick up the car as instructed I noticed a car that looked just like mine sitting in a parking lot (as it had the same rims) a few blocks from the shop. Once I got there I was told that the motor siezed when they were test driving it after installing the headers and cutout (before the tune). They told me they drained the oil and there were only 2-3 quarts in the motor (although I checked the oil prior to driving it up there, which was about an hour and a half ride). The following week they apparently changed the starter, nothing, then tried turning the motor over manually. I was told the motor was completely siezed and that they had tried breaking it loose numerous times, with no luck. I had it flatbedded back home where I was completely disgusted, I tried breaking it loose and nothing. It just sat there and collected dust in my garage, as I had no money for a rebuild and was tapped out after the header install.
Last week I pulled all the plugs out and poured marvel mystery oil and another home remedy into the spark plug holes. I let it sit for two days, checked the level of oil sitting on top of the cylinders and noted some of the cylinders were completely drained while others still had some oil but the level decreased. I filled them up more and let them sit until yesterday. With a breaker bar about 5 feet long, I was able to break the motor loose. We manually cranked the motor over between 1 and 2 full rotations, and the remaining fluid shot out of the spark plug holes.
I put everything back together (drained the oil, put new oil in, along with the new filter and filled up the radiator) and with only about 4-6 seconds of hesitation, the motor started right up. I let it run for about 15 seconds, noting there was zero oil pressure on the gague.
My friend went under the car and losened the oil filter to see if any oil would squirt out when I started it again (in order to check the pressure). I started it, (it fired right up) and let it run for 2 seconds, no oil came out of the slightly losened filter. He tightened it up, I started it let it run for 5 seconds, and cut it off. We removed the oil filter and there was no oil in it.
At this point, it the only conclusion I can draw is that the engine siezed due to oil pump failure.
My next step is to replace the oil pump with the Melling 10296.
My question to you all is do you think the bearings and o-rings are shot? Before putting the plugs back in, we tested the compression and it was extremely high, 240psi. However, please note there were most likely about 8-9 quarts of oil/fluid in the motor at that time.
At this point if I am going to be replacing the oil pump I am just going to swap the cam and valve springs as well (leaving the stock heads).
Has anyone ever had experience in bringing a siezed Ls1 back to life? Am I an idiot if I just change the oil pump and cam and not rip the motor apart and change all o-rings and bearings? I do not want to risk doing more damage to the motor, however, if I change the oil pump and cam, then get it tuned I would think by compression testing alone, I should be able to tell if the o-rings and bearings are good, what do you think?
Also, please note there are two wire harnesses under the hood which are not plugged in and I have no idea where they should go or if they are needed. My car does not have traction control, the only mods, are a lid, 4.11 rear gears, headers, and cut-out. One of the harnesses is puple and has 3 wires, it is almost v-shaped, and is a male. This harness is on the pasenger side of the motor. The other harness is closer to the MAF sensor and is light blue, this one has 4-5 wires going into it, and is more of a rectangle, it is also a male.
One last thing to mention is there is a plate right on top of the throttle body behind the MAF which was removed when they did the header install, it looks almost as if there is a piece missing however I am not sure if this is related. They said it does not need it, and it related to the header install.
Any comments/advice on this would be greatly appreciated.
Well, it all started two years ago when I dropped my car (1998 Trans Am Ws6 M6) off at a shop to have the SLP headers installed with an electronic cutout and tune. To make a long story short, I left it there for about 5-6 weeks (before they touched it) where it sat out in their parking lot. Upon driving up there to pick up the car as instructed I noticed a car that looked just like mine sitting in a parking lot (as it had the same rims) a few blocks from the shop. Once I got there I was told that the motor siezed when they were test driving it after installing the headers and cutout (before the tune). They told me they drained the oil and there were only 2-3 quarts in the motor (although I checked the oil prior to driving it up there, which was about an hour and a half ride). The following week they apparently changed the starter, nothing, then tried turning the motor over manually. I was told the motor was completely siezed and that they had tried breaking it loose numerous times, with no luck. I had it flatbedded back home where I was completely disgusted, I tried breaking it loose and nothing. It just sat there and collected dust in my garage, as I had no money for a rebuild and was tapped out after the header install.
Last week I pulled all the plugs out and poured marvel mystery oil and another home remedy into the spark plug holes. I let it sit for two days, checked the level of oil sitting on top of the cylinders and noted some of the cylinders were completely drained while others still had some oil but the level decreased. I filled them up more and let them sit until yesterday. With a breaker bar about 5 feet long, I was able to break the motor loose. We manually cranked the motor over between 1 and 2 full rotations, and the remaining fluid shot out of the spark plug holes.
I put everything back together (drained the oil, put new oil in, along with the new filter and filled up the radiator) and with only about 4-6 seconds of hesitation, the motor started right up. I let it run for about 15 seconds, noting there was zero oil pressure on the gague.
My friend went under the car and losened the oil filter to see if any oil would squirt out when I started it again (in order to check the pressure). I started it, (it fired right up) and let it run for 2 seconds, no oil came out of the slightly losened filter. He tightened it up, I started it let it run for 5 seconds, and cut it off. We removed the oil filter and there was no oil in it.
At this point, it the only conclusion I can draw is that the engine siezed due to oil pump failure.
My next step is to replace the oil pump with the Melling 10296.
My question to you all is do you think the bearings and o-rings are shot? Before putting the plugs back in, we tested the compression and it was extremely high, 240psi. However, please note there were most likely about 8-9 quarts of oil/fluid in the motor at that time.
At this point if I am going to be replacing the oil pump I am just going to swap the cam and valve springs as well (leaving the stock heads).
Has anyone ever had experience in bringing a siezed Ls1 back to life? Am I an idiot if I just change the oil pump and cam and not rip the motor apart and change all o-rings and bearings? I do not want to risk doing more damage to the motor, however, if I change the oil pump and cam, then get it tuned I would think by compression testing alone, I should be able to tell if the o-rings and bearings are good, what do you think?
Also, please note there are two wire harnesses under the hood which are not plugged in and I have no idea where they should go or if they are needed. My car does not have traction control, the only mods, are a lid, 4.11 rear gears, headers, and cut-out. One of the harnesses is puple and has 3 wires, it is almost v-shaped, and is a male. This harness is on the pasenger side of the motor. The other harness is closer to the MAF sensor and is light blue, this one has 4-5 wires going into it, and is more of a rectangle, it is also a male.
One last thing to mention is there is a plate right on top of the throttle body behind the MAF which was removed when they did the header install, it looks almost as if there is a piece missing however I am not sure if this is related. They said it does not need it, and it related to the header install.
Any comments/advice on this would be greatly appreciated.
06-29-2008, 06:14 PM
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id take it appart to check whats what.. you will need to inspect the bearings.. and bores... it sounds like it very well could be a piston.. i mean if you have the tools to remove the engine i would not hesitate to yank it and tear it down to see whats what.. you dont have to replace everything.. just all teh worn/broken stuff... that way you also have a clue about what to doo, peraps an ebay shortblock or a handfull of parts will get you goung again...
but you will have to solve the oil pump issue, and replace/repair whatever broke to stick it in the first place
but you will have to solve the oil pump issue, and replace/repair whatever broke to stick it in the first place
06-30-2008, 09:06 AM
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I think you really need to inspect the bearings. No oil pressure for even a few seconds can cause premature damage. Remember the oil is not just a lube it is the cusion between the hard parts. YOu could do much more damage by just slapping in a new pump and filter. Just pull the motor and pull a few caps off and look at the bearings. Heck if your not to broke why not just throw some new bearing is now. Its never a bad Idea to freshen up the bottom end, and with the pan gasket being reusable you will only need a timing cover gasket and water pump gasket to check it. Also you may want to open the filter with a filter cutter ( auto zone rents them I think)and look for shavings
06-30-2008, 09:26 AM
#5
One last thing to mention is there is a plate right on top of the throttle body behind the MAF which was removed when they did the header install, it looks almost as if there is a piece missing however I am not sure if this is related. They said it does not need it, and it related to the header install.
06-30-2008, 11:05 AM
#7
I would tear the engine down and check all of the bearings and Cyl bores. if the Crank is not tore up, replace the bearing (both Rods and Crank). Maybe a light hone on the clyinders and new rings. On replacing the oil pump.. make sure to fill the pump up with heave oil or light grease to help prime the pump on startup.
+1 on the EGR.. if you installed LT, most of them don't have EGR or AIR fittings. Did the remove the EGR and AIR system, those could be the harness connections that you ar talking about ?
+1 on the EGR.. if you installed LT, most of them don't have EGR or AIR fittings. Did the remove the EGR and AIR system, those could be the harness connections that you ar talking about ?
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06-30-2008, 06:28 PM
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well im gonna be the guy that says throw a pump in it and see what happens...id say the shitty *** 98 pump gave out...mine did....just search and find a low mileage 00 or newer pump and stick in it....I wouldnt waste money on a new pump nor a cam....good luck
06-30-2008, 08:56 PM
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I'm gonna be the guy that says the last two guys are idiots. Running an engine for even a few seconds WILL damage the crank. If you just replace the oil pump I gaurentee you will be replacing the bottom end in a very short time.
Re'
Re'
07-01-2008, 03:26 PM
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how mature 
to the op I wouldnt put anything new in ther like I said earlier....if an oil pump gets you psi then you will know the cause of the lockup.....on a side note on a mech gaugr my engine makes 20psi while cranking with pcm fuse pulled...
07-01-2008, 08:55 PM
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Yea, I'm thinking that if I am going to change the oil pump, I might as well get a new one because I don't want to have it crap out again. Most likely, the Melling 10296.
07-02-2008, 12:52 AM
#16
I am with Re on this one. I seem your going to pay a little now and a lot more soon after...
Cut your cost now and invest a bit more now by just taking it down now and inspect it 1st.. that way it may be just the cost of bearing.. but if you ruin the crank or block.. you will just have to buy whole engine.
Cut your cost now and invest a bit more now by just taking it down now and inspect it 1st.. that way it may be just the cost of bearing.. but if you ruin the crank or block.. you will just have to buy whole engine.
07-02-2008, 01:10 AM
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if you did spin a bearing you will not have good oil flow through out the bottom end because the bearing will be blockin the oil chambers. which tells you... spun bearings. and believe me you will hear the bottom end knockin around. pull off the oil pump and check the o ring on the pick up tube. you will have to drop the pan. the o ring has been updated because the old will not seal good. it could also be torn you never know. pull off the pump and if you want to you can go through the trouble of actually pullin the pan completely off which is a bitch and check it out. like i said you will know bottom end noise. i wouldnt start it again for a while until you get the oil pump put on and if you dont have the money to do a rebuild stay out of it if the pump fixes the problem and you dont hear anything.
07-02-2008, 09:16 AM
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Yea, the few times I started it we did not hear any bottom end noise. The valves were definitely loud though, which is expected since there is no oil getting pumped up there.
If I change the oil pump, and do a compression check and the oil pressure comes right up when start it is it would I be confident that I did not spina bearing?
Also, I am thinking of sending the oil which was in the old filter out to a lab, has anyone ever done this before. How accurate can they determine the health of the engine by analyzing the oil?
Thanks
If I change the oil pump, and do a compression check and the oil pressure comes right up when start it is it would I be confident that I did not spina bearing?
Also, I am thinking of sending the oil which was in the old filter out to a lab, has anyone ever done this before. How accurate can they determine the health of the engine by analyzing the oil?
Thanks
07-02-2008, 11:06 AM
#19
if you started it up and only heard valvetrain noise, i would throw a pump in it and go. everyone acts like letting an engine run for 5 seconds with no oil pressure will kill it immediately. they are wrong. i know this fact from experience. what do you guys think happens when you change the oil? more often than not, for a few seconds after startup changing oil in ANY vehicle you will hear lifter noise, maybe faint, maybe not..but it is there, indicating no oil pressure.
