Switching valve springs on new AFR heads (still off the car)?
08-07-2008, 10:37 AM
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Switching valve springs on new AFR heads (still off the car)? Good morning.
I just bought some brand new AFR 205's and some Patriot gold 650 lift double springs to replace the ones that come in the AFR heads which are 600 lift.
The heads are not installed on the car. So what other tools do you guys think I will need to change these out?
I know I'll need a spring compressor, but what else?
Thanks in advance.
I just bought some brand new AFR 205's and some Patriot gold 650 lift double springs to replace the ones that come in the AFR heads which are 600 lift.
The heads are not installed on the car. So what other tools do you guys think I will need to change these out?
I know I'll need a spring compressor, but what else?
Thanks in advance.
08-07-2008, 11:43 AM
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just a pen magnet to take the keepers out, and something to replace the valve seals. You can get the off with pliers. I used a socket and hammer to put mine back on.
08-07-2008, 11:45 AM
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And no they aren't basically the same springs. AFR recommends replacing the ones the come in them. And they are only good for .600" and the dual golds are .650" the extremes are .660".
08-07-2008, 02:11 PM
#5
What we RATE them for and how much lift they can tolerate are two seperate issues. You can run a .650 lift cam with our standard springs but we dont recommend it....not because of coilbind issues but because we feel that much lift requires more seat pressure and spring rate (hence our 8019 upgrade that we do rate for .650).
All of this discounts that fact that .650 lift is likely to cost you more in power due to valve control issues than any airflow gains because our 205 heads peak closer to .600 but thats an entire seperate issue.
Bottom line is the OP is spinning his wheels and wasting money with what he proposes.....a true upgrade would have been a move to our 8019 spring which has more seat and open pressure and most importantly a flawless track record out in the field....IMO they are arguably the best hydraulic roller spring on the planet. The Patriot Extremes look similar on paper but I cant vouch for their longevity out in the field like I can with our 8019 springs.
One phone call to AFR (the manufacturer) to get our input on this swap (or a PM to me personally), would have saved alot of time and money....
Tony
08-07-2008, 05:06 PM
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Yes....Vettenuts is right....they are in fact basically the same.
What we RATE them for and how much lift they can tolerate are two seperate issues. You can run a .650 lift cam with our standard springs but we dont recommend it....not because of coilbind issues but because we feel that much lift requires more seat pressure and spring rate (hence our 8019 upgrade that we do rate for .650).
All of this discounts that fact that .650 lift is likely to cost you more in power due to valve control issues than any airflow gains because our 205 heads peak closer to .600 but thats an entire seperate issue.
Bottom line is the OP is spinning his wheels and wasting money with what he proposes.....a true upgrade would have been a move to our 8019 spring which has more seat and open pressure and most importantly a flawless track record out in the field....IMO they are arguably the best hydraulic roller spring on the planet. The Patriot Extremes look similar on paper but I cant vouch for their longevity out in the field like I can with our 8019 springs.
One phone call to AFR (the manufacturer) to get our input on this swap (or a PM to me personally), would have saved alot of time and money....
Tony
What we RATE them for and how much lift they can tolerate are two seperate issues. You can run a .650 lift cam with our standard springs but we dont recommend it....not because of coilbind issues but because we feel that much lift requires more seat pressure and spring rate (hence our 8019 upgrade that we do rate for .650).
All of this discounts that fact that .650 lift is likely to cost you more in power due to valve control issues than any airflow gains because our 205 heads peak closer to .600 but thats an entire seperate issue.
Bottom line is the OP is spinning his wheels and wasting money with what he proposes.....a true upgrade would have been a move to our 8019 spring which has more seat and open pressure and most importantly a flawless track record out in the field....IMO they are arguably the best hydraulic roller spring on the planet. The Patriot Extremes look similar on paper but I cant vouch for their longevity out in the field like I can with our 8019 springs.
One phone call to AFR (the manufacturer) to get our input on this swap (or a PM to me personally), would have saved alot of time and money....
Tony
I still don't understand how the Patriot golds that are rated at .650 lift are the same as the stockers (.600 lift) that come with AFR 205 heads.
08-07-2008, 06:10 PM
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08-07-2008, 06:14 PM
#8
The rated lift is a function of many things. A spring with a rated lift of 0.650 when installed with a height of 1.800" would need to be reduced if the installed height were 1.750" to bump up the seat force. Most of what you see for rated lift is based on an installed height, but that installed height may not provide proper valve control. To aid with valve control, shims can be used to increase seat and open valve forces, but in so doing you also reduce the amount of compression the spring can take while keeping safe clearances. In reality, rated lift doesn't play a major role, it is free height (not installed), stiffness and installed height that provide a seat force value. Add to this stiffness X lift for open force. Then installed height minus coil bind height minus clearance provides the actual lift that the spring can then handle.
Hope this makes sense.
Hope this makes sense.
08-07-2008, 06:34 PM
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The rated lift is a function of many things. A spring with a rated lift of 0.650 when installed with a height of 1.800" would need to be reduced if the installed height were 1.750" to bump up the seat force. Most of what you see for rated lift is based on an installed height, but that installed height may not provide proper valve control. To aid with valve control, shims can be used to increase seat and open valve forces, but in so doing you also reduce the amount of compression the spring can take while keeping safe clearances. In reality, rated lift doesn't play a major role, it is free height (not installed), stiffness and installed height that provide a seat force value. Add to this stiffness X lift for open force. Then installed height minus coil bind height minus clearance provides the actual lift that the spring can then handle.
Hope this makes sense.
Hope this makes sense.
They were recommended to me by some one named "Young" from Byunspeed.com, where I bought everything from.
So are they going to break or make me lose a lot of power or what?
If they're so much worse on the heads than the other ones, should I return them?
08-07-2008, 07:08 PM
#10
Damn. So I made the wrong decision ordering the patriot golds?
They were recommended to me by some one named "Young" from Byunspeed.com, where I bought everything from.
So are they going to break or make me lose a lot of power or what?
If they're so much worse on the heads than the other ones, should I return them?
They were recommended to me by some one named "Young" from Byunspeed.com, where I bought everything from.
So are they going to break or make me lose a lot of power or what?
If they're so much worse on the heads than the other ones, should I return them?
The first question is whether or not you actually need a valve spring upgrade. What is the cam? I would take Tony's offer, shoot him a PM and tell him what cam you are running and let him make the spring recommendation. He is the best one to match your setup not only for performance but also longevity. You made an investment in a great set of heads, see what Tony thinks about the final setup you have planned.
08-07-2008, 07:39 PM
#11
Its not a matter of being worse, there is simply no improvement over the AFR springs. The AFR 8019's I think are $200 from AFR and they will drop right in. If you already have the whole Patriot kit, you are probably better off selling the kit and picking up the AFR springs if you truly need an upgraded valve spring..
The first question is whether or not you actually need a valve spring upgrade. What is the cam? I would take Tony's offer, shoot him a PM and tell him what cam you are running and let him make the spring recommendation. He is the best one to match your setup not only for performance but also longevity. You made an investment in a great set of heads, see what Tony thinks about the final setup you have planned.
The first question is whether or not you actually need a valve spring upgrade. What is the cam? I would take Tony's offer, shoot him a PM and tell him what cam you are running and let him make the spring recommendation. He is the best one to match your setup not only for performance but also longevity. You made an investment in a great set of heads, see what Tony thinks about the final setup you have planned.
08-07-2008, 09:52 PM
#13
im on AFR OEM dual springs...im clocking about 35K miles on them still....countless misshifts, bumped rev limiter, countless redline shifts...no issues!
but Im only running the mild 224/228 cam and i warm up the springs before WOT
08-08-2008, 05:03 PM
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I doubt you need an upgrade, with that cam. You'll be fine with what came on the heads. If anything, keep the ones you bought for a spare set, to exchange miles down the road. I'll swap mine out @ 10,000.
08-08-2008, 05:28 PM
#16
Maybe I was mistaken on what we talked about. The PP springs were bought later on after the heads because you wanted to upgrade the springs after the heads shipped. It was too late. I said you were okay with what you got. So you called the next day to order up the PPs because I said I had the 650s here if you wanted the 650s. From what we discussed you were possibly going to run nitrous and a bigger cam later down the road and would swap them? Either way, no loss for you there, it'll be good to keep a spare set and also if you don't want them, return them.
Also spoke to Mr. Mamo. If you want he can upgrade your springs or we can send you a set of the PP 660s if that makes you feel comfortable, either way, let me know and we'll take care of it! Thanks!
Also spoke to Mr. Mamo. If you want he can upgrade your springs or we can send you a set of the PP 660s if that makes you feel comfortable, either way, let me know and we'll take care of it! Thanks!
Last edited by COSPEED; 08-08-2008 at 06:17 PM.
08-08-2008, 06:26 PM
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Maybe I was mistaken on what we talked about. The PP springs were bought later on after the heads because you wanted to upgrade the springs after the heads shipped. It was too late. I said you were okay with what you got. So you called the next day to order up the PPs because I said I had the 650s here if you wanted the 650s. From what we discussed you were possibly going to run nitrous and a bigger cam later down the road and would swap them? Either way, no loss for you there, it'll be good to keep a spare set and also if you don't want them, return them.
This is confusing as hell. I'll just return these and get the 8019's.
08-08-2008, 06:41 PM
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The plastic package that the springs came in was kinda twisted and mangled in the box. So some of the tabs that hold the package closed were broken, so some of the springs were sticking halfway out of the package. None of of the stuff looks damaged, but I just wanted to let you know. This is why I called you and left you a message.
I opened the plastic package to rearrange all the springs and seats like they should be. Will this be an issue when I return these to you? I read your return policy and it said you won't take opened packages.
Last edited by Local-heretic; 08-08-2008 at 08:12 PM.
LOL