Help Me Please.....
08-30-2008, 05:08 PM
#1
Help Me Please..... OK so i pulled my intake off yesterday to change the gaskets. the way the car was running it seemed like i had a vacuum leak. well when i got the intake off, there is oil in 7 of the 8 intake runners. i do not have the pcv or anything to pull oil through the intake so i dont know where this could have came from. there is no oil in the intake itself. only thing i can think of is valve seals maybe. but the motor, heads, and everything is all brand new or fresh. any ideas would be greatly appreciated. here are pics
oh and when i drained the oil, there is alot of metal in it but i think it is from the cam. i think i got one of the bad f13 cams and the lobes are coming apart. so i think that is a separate issue but ya never know. i will have the cam out tonight.
oh and when i drained the oil, there is alot of metal in it but i think it is from the cam. i think i got one of the bad f13 cams and the lobes are coming apart. so i think that is a separate issue but ya never know. i will have the cam out tonight.
08-30-2008, 06:22 PM
#2
Did you have a leak on the rear portion of the valve covers that leaked there? I see you have a breather on the oil cap, do you have one on the drivers side? Possible oil seeping out and rolling down there? Also, you know you can take that black piece off and have the breather flush with the valve cover right? It gives it a cleaner look.
Off topic, but what are the rims and sizes of them?
Off topic, but what are the rims and sizes of them?
08-30-2008, 08:16 PM
#3
i have the breather on the valve cover and the valley cover has a fitting with a line that goes to a breather tank . there is no oil at all in the intake, juat in the heads. no leaks anywhere external. oh and the front rims are greg welds and the rear are holeshot holestars 15x12 with a 4" backspace
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08-30-2008, 11:21 PM
#9
thanks. i did pull the cam out tonight to see where all the metal came from but the cam and lifters all look fine to me. i know it wasnt bearing material because it sticks to a magnet. so know i dont know where al lthe metal came from and how i got oil in all my intake runners except for one. look at the pic and see how clean the intake runner is for the #3 cylinder.
08-31-2008, 10:38 AM
#10
i have the breather on the valve cover and the valley cover has a fitting with a line that goes to a breather tank . there is no oil at all in the intake, juat in the heads. no leaks anywhere external. oh and the front rims are greg welds and the rear are holeshot holestars 15x12 with a 4" backspace
Does your breather tank have an internal PCV valve? If not, then possibly the crank case is sucking air in from your breather tank & out through un-seated piston rings. Also, we just did a test on a valve cover breather set-up that adds un-measured air (EFI type fueling) to the engine & the PCM reacts to it by adding fuel to the point of maxing out fuel trims. My suggestion is to add a PCV valve in line to your breather tank & run a hose from your throttle body to each valve cover so that only air that has been measured by the MAF enters the engine. This will allow for accurate fuel trims & should help the oil blow by problem.
08-31-2008, 11:05 AM
#11
Does your breather tank have an internal PCV valve? If not, then possibly the crank case is sucking air in from your breather tank & out through un-seated piston rings. Also, we just did a test on a valve cover breather set-up that adds un-measured air (EFI type fueling) to the engine & the PCM reacts to it by adding fuel to the point of maxing out fuel trims. My suggestion is to add a PCV valve in line to your breather tank & run a hose from your throttle body to each valve cover so that only air that has been measured by the MAF enters the engine. This will allow for accurate fuel trims & should help the oil blow by problem.
What kind of power does the motor generate? It is possible that the breathers aren't enough. You may have to have evacs made up. You weld to the collectors of the headers and the exhaust aids in ventilation. Any way you can test the valve seals?
08-31-2008, 11:39 AM
#12
I'm going to have to say that you are wrong. There is no way un-metered air can enter through the breathers. PCV stands for positive crankcase ventilation. Its a vent for crank pressure. A PCV just recirculates the air into the intake by taking it and sending it into the intake, and along with that normally oil enters the intake. Thats how some get the slight miss from the oil burning in the combustion chamber.
Well, I'm not wrong & unless you can show me an STFT log that's recorded using external valve cover breathers that is the same as one that uses measured MAF air to the valve covers, your comment is noting more than an opinion. The STFT's will max out because the un-measured air is causing the PCM to react to a lean condition. When using measured air, the STFT's remain normal. Oh, and thanks for the definition of PCV; save it for the guys whom post threads about their PVC & have no concept that PVC is pipe & not a PCV system.
If someone would like to challenge my thread then show me a log; one w/ valve covers vented to atmosphere (non-MAF measured air) & one w/ valve covers vented by MAF measured air. If you have not done this, then don't bother posting. Anyone without tuning software can confirm it by checking fuel mileage. The measured air set up will use less fuel.
A properly set-up PCV system takes air in through the valve covers, down the push rod openings & into the crank case. When pressure builds, it leaves the crank case through the PCV valve & into the intake. This is how PCV set-ups send oil into the intake.
Read a thread started bt TLewis4095 in the external section "truth about pcv ...". It is educational & should be a sticky. His thread led to the test we did to see if valve cover breather set-ups affected the PCM & it most definately does.
A properly set-up PCV system uses a (MAF) measured air feed from the throttle body & into either valve cover. Then from that valve cover or feed line to the other valve cover.
-If an LS6 valley cover is used, then just run the valley cover to the intake through a PCV valve.
-If a non-LS6 valley cover is used, then run the PCV valve in the stock configuration from the valve cover to the intake.
-Catch cans can be used in either case.
SOURCE: TLewis4095 thread in external section & my study regarding non-measured air feed against measured air feed to valve covers (EFI systems).
08-31-2008, 11:56 AM
#13
Please explain how the un-metered air enters. The ports that were used for the PCV system are plugged and breathers are placed on the valve covers. I didn't log my STFT's without the breathers, but my mpg did not decrease by doing this. Also, the air that is from the PCV is vented after the throttle body on the intake. It is not measured by the MAF. I'm not a tuner by any means, I just don't see how it's possible.
08-31-2008, 01:28 PM
#14
Please explain how the un-metered air enters. The ports that were used for the PCV system are plugged and breathers are placed on the valve covers. I didn't log my STFT's without the breathers, but my mpg did not decrease by doing this. Also, the air that is from the PCV is vented after the throttle body on the intake. It is not measured by the MAF. I'm not a tuner by any means, I just don't see how it's possible.
There was 1.7 to 2% of un-measured air that entered my engine through valve cover breathers, a bit more on larger displacement engines, I'm sure. There is no doubt that front 02 sensors see the air that was not seen by the MAF & indicates a lean condition to the PCM. The PCM then reacts by adding fuel. This can be seen with tuning software. Once only measured air enters the valve covers, the PCM & front 02 sensors act normally w/ no change to the STFT's & LTFT's.
Another item of interest. Not adding any air to the valve covers will result in higher oil pressures. Further, if a plugged up PCV valve occurs with capped valve covers, it is possible to blow out engine seals.
08-31-2008, 01:52 PM
#15
Does your breather tank have an internal PCV valve? If not, then possibly the crank case is sucking air in from your breather tank & out through un-seated piston rings. Also, we just did a test on a valve cover breather set-up that adds un-measured air (EFI type fueling) to the engine & the PCM reacts to it by adding fuel to the point of maxing out fuel trims. My suggestion is to add a PCV valve in line to your breather tank & run a hose from your throttle body to each valve cover so that only air that has been measured by the MAF enters the engine. This will allow for accurate fuel trims & should help the oil blow by problem.
thanks for all the good info already. when i get it all back together i am definitely going to add the pcv valve. the breather sucking in air would explain why the car was acting like it did.
08-31-2008, 02:48 PM
#16
no i do not have any pcv valves anywhere. and it is very possible that i do have some unseated piston rings due to the motor being new. as for measured air and un-measured air, i do not have a MAF. it is tuned for speed density. and why 1 clean intake runner and 7 oily ones?
thanks for all the good info already. when i get it all back together i am definitely going to add the pcv valve. the breather sucking in air would explain why the car was acting like it did.
thanks for all the good info already. when i get it all back together i am definitely going to add the pcv valve. the breather sucking in air would explain why the car was acting like it did.
Yah, if your tuned SD, then agreed, your valve cover breathers are OK. I don't know why 1 clean & 7 oily. All you can do is eliminate one possible problem @ a time & see what happens. So, after the PCV addition, open her up & have a look. Wouldn't hurt to run non-synthetic oil for 500 to 1000 miles as well, to help break in (rings).
08-31-2008, 03:21 PM
#17
You say it enters the engine, there are valve seals. There should not be any reason that the air enters the combustion chamber. If air was entering there then oil surely was being burned. I'm just not buying this. If everything was capped and no breathers were on there then the pressure would blow by the rings.
You keep saying it enters the motor, it can be in the valve covers all it wants. Where it matters is going through the combustion chamber and out of the exhaust so the o2's can read this. Then indeed it would show a lean condition and try to correct it.
You keep saying it enters the motor, it can be in the valve covers all it wants. Where it matters is going through the combustion chamber and out of the exhaust so the o2's can read this. Then indeed it would show a lean condition and try to correct it.
08-31-2008, 04:32 PM
#18
You say it enters the engine, there are valve seals. There should not be any reason that the air enters the combustion chamber. If air was entering there then oil surely was being burned. I'm just not buying this. If everything was capped and no breathers were on there then the pressure would blow by the rings.
You keep saying it enters the motor, it can be in the valve covers all it wants. Where it matters is going through the combustion chamber and out of the exhaust so the o2's can read this. Then indeed it would show a lean condition and try to correct it.
You keep saying it enters the motor, it can be in the valve covers all it wants. Where it matters is going through the combustion chamber and out of the exhaust so the o2's can read this. Then indeed it would show a lean condition and try to correct it.
If you want to have a discussion, then discuss. Your judging not discussing & your interpretation is incorrect. Air enters the combustion chamber through the push rod openings in the valve covers where there is plenty of space to enter the crank case. From the crank case the air is forced into the combustion chamber through the PCV line connected to the intake. It then gets mixed w/ fuel, burned, & exhausted to the 02 sensors.
You'r killing me........I did not say that it matters that air is in the valve covers. What I said was that it matters when un-measured air enters the valve covers. With a MAF tune, any air entering the engine that is not measured is a vacuum leak. The MAF says to the PCM that there is x amount of air. The PCM than say OK injectors, send x amount of fuel for x amount of air. The 02's then check the exhaust air/fuel ratio & either confirm to the PCM that the fuel mix is as commanded based on the MAF signal or the 02's say to the PCM, heay the air/fuel mix is lean (or rich; in this case lean) & then the STFT's & eventually the LTFT's will add fuel to correct for the 02 reading.
08-31-2008, 04:39 PM
#19
If you want to have a discussion, then discuss. Your judging not discussing & your interpretation is incorrect. Air enters the combustion chamber through the push rod openings in the valve covers where there is plenty of space to enter the crank case. From the crank case the air is forced into the combustion chamber through the PCV line connected to the intake. It then gets mixed w/ fuel, burned, & exhausted to the 02 sensors.
You'r killing me........I did not say that it matters that air is in the valve covers. What I said was that it matters when un-measured air enters the valve covers. With a MAF tune, any air entering the engine that is not measured is a vacuum leak. The MAF says to the PCM that there is x amount of air. The PCM than say OK injectors, send x amount of fuel for x amount of air. The 02's then check the exhaust air/fuel ratio & either confirm to the PCM that the fuel mix is as commanded based on the MAF signal or the 02's say to the PCM, heay the air/fuel mix is lean (or rich; in this case lean) & then the STFT's & eventually the LTFT's will add fuel to correct for the 02 reading.
You'r killing me........I did not say that it matters that air is in the valve covers. What I said was that it matters when un-measured air enters the valve covers. With a MAF tune, any air entering the engine that is not measured is a vacuum leak. The MAF says to the PCM that there is x amount of air. The PCM than say OK injectors, send x amount of fuel for x amount of air. The 02's then check the exhaust air/fuel ratio & either confirm to the PCM that the fuel mix is as commanded based on the MAF signal or the 02's say to the PCM, heay the air/fuel mix is lean (or rich; in this case lean) & then the STFT's & eventually the LTFT's will add fuel to correct for the 02 reading.
08-31-2008, 09:25 PM
#20
The intake feeds the combustion chamber through the valves. You know this
& are now being a wise guy. Your welcome for the education.
9sec93,
Please let us know if the PCV works.
