Goal of 430rwhp - LS3 Setup vs 243 Setup ?
06-30-2011, 12:12 PM
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Goal of 430rwhp - LS3 Setup vs 243 Setup ? So I am starting with a BONE Stock 2007 CTS-V (LS2) and trying to get to 430-450 RWHP and still maintain a good stockish idle and good power under the curve.
I have three big options as I see it.
1.) Maggie Setup
Maggie - $5000 new
Headers $650
Tune $450
Total $6100
This combo tends to yield 450ish - 500ish with a pulley and is the most expensive option I am considering, it also makes the most power. Some might argue that it is more power then the car is able to put down with the stock rear end..
2.) LS3 Upper Setup w/ medium cam.
I have been reading on LS1GTO and there seem to be quite a few GTO's that are using the LS3/L92 heads (shaved .30) with a cam and boltons getting to 450ish. The question is can I get a cam that makes good power under the curve and posts 450 with a stockish idle (it is a Cadillac after all). Patrick G has a thread on using an "old man" cam to get a GTO to ~450 range. This also seems to be the "best bang for the buck" route. The only big drawback is that there are no FI "kits" for this particular setup.
OBX Headers - 650.00
LS3 heads - 700.00
.30 Mill - $100
LS3 Intake - 310.00
Texas Speed Camshaft kit - 714.00
Offset Intake rockers and stands - 120.00
Gaskets - 150.00
Bolts - 120.00
LS7 Lifters - 140.00
Hardened Pushrods - 100.00
Cam Chain Set - 80.00
Tune - 450
LS2 Heads (400.00)
LS2 Intake & injectors (150.00)
Total 3,084.00
3.) LS2 CNC Setup.
This is very similar to the LS3 setup except having my 243's CNC'd and buying a FAST intake ( the LS3 intake flows much better then the LS2). The only big advantage here is that if this ends up not being enough power I can slap a Maggie on it later.
OBX Headers - 650.00
CNC Ported 243 Heads - 1,000.00
Fast 102 - 830.00
Texas Speed Camshaft kit- 714.00
Reuse Stock rockers- 0
Gaskets- 150.00
Bolts - 120.00
LS7 Lifters - 140.00
Hardened Pushrods - 100.00
Cam Chain Set - 80.00
Tune - $450
Total - $4234.00
So I am looking for insight from those who have walked down this path and made good and bad choices and looking for your hindsight. I am not a drag racer, just like having fast cars...
Cam suggestions would be appreciated as well for good results with theses combos....
I have three big options as I see it.
1.) Maggie Setup
Maggie - $5000 new
Headers $650
Tune $450
Total $6100
This combo tends to yield 450ish - 500ish with a pulley and is the most expensive option I am considering, it also makes the most power. Some might argue that it is more power then the car is able to put down with the stock rear end..
2.) LS3 Upper Setup w/ medium cam.
I have been reading on LS1GTO and there seem to be quite a few GTO's that are using the LS3/L92 heads (shaved .30) with a cam and boltons getting to 450ish. The question is can I get a cam that makes good power under the curve and posts 450 with a stockish idle (it is a Cadillac after all). Patrick G has a thread on using an "old man" cam to get a GTO to ~450 range. This also seems to be the "best bang for the buck" route. The only big drawback is that there are no FI "kits" for this particular setup.
OBX Headers - 650.00
LS3 heads - 700.00
.30 Mill - $100
LS3 Intake - 310.00
Texas Speed Camshaft kit - 714.00
Offset Intake rockers and stands - 120.00
Gaskets - 150.00
Bolts - 120.00
LS7 Lifters - 140.00
Hardened Pushrods - 100.00
Cam Chain Set - 80.00
Tune - 450
LS2 Heads (400.00)
LS2 Intake & injectors (150.00)
Total 3,084.00
3.) LS2 CNC Setup.
This is very similar to the LS3 setup except having my 243's CNC'd and buying a FAST intake ( the LS3 intake flows much better then the LS2). The only big advantage here is that if this ends up not being enough power I can slap a Maggie on it later.
OBX Headers - 650.00
CNC Ported 243 Heads - 1,000.00
Fast 102 - 830.00
Texas Speed Camshaft kit- 714.00
Reuse Stock rockers- 0
Gaskets- 150.00
Bolts - 120.00
LS7 Lifters - 140.00
Hardened Pushrods - 100.00
Cam Chain Set - 80.00
Tune - $450
Total - $4234.00
So I am looking for insight from those who have walked down this path and made good and bad choices and looking for your hindsight. I am not a drag racer, just like having fast cars...
Cam suggestions would be appreciated as well for good results with theses combos....
06-30-2011, 02:12 PM
#2
TEA ported heads with PAC springs, 1k with your core return. EPS cam, 400ish. Either company will offer deals on timing chain, gaskets, and pushrods, so your overall cost will drop a bit. Replacement GM bolts aren't going to cost what you stated, much less. A FAST 102 intake after all that work is a wise investment, and can be had these days for under $800. If your engine has under 40k miles, then you won't need new lifters. Your posted cost for option 3 would be less.
07-03-2011, 08:48 AM
#4
I would go with some cnc ported l92s, a descent size cam (have patrick G spec it out for you). I think you will be happier with that over the FI siimply because once you FI your pretty much done upgrading. Plus my buddy raced a CTSV with a maggi and beat it with his bolt on ws6 so i am not impressed with maggis on the Vs the car couldnt hold traction for anything with the skinny 255s or whatever it has from factory on it.
07-03-2011, 11:42 AM
#6
I just got my GTO running two days ago with a ported LS3 setup on my LS2. I think the LS3 stuff will work better for you, since you want the car to be pretty tame, like a Caddy.
I used the TSP 225/230 113 LSA LS3 cam in mine, and it's got a reasonably smooth idle at 900 rpm. I haven't really worked on the tune too much yet, so it could run even smoother. I might drop the speed down to make it sound a little more menacing, though. The cathedral port heads will require a rowdier cam to make the same power, and to me this is one of the biggest benefits of the LS3s.
I also would recommend going with a thin (.040) head gasket rather than milling, so as to maximize your piston to valve clearance, unless you want to run a cam that's even smaller than mine. With .030 milled stock heads, my cam would be too tight, IMO. Taking the volume out of the gasket has a bigger affect, because it's a larger area than the combustion chamber. This is what Patrick G recommended to a friend of mine with a similar setup.
I also decided to swap to a set of Lunati/Morel lifters on my car. I got them for $300, and I thought they were worth the peace of mind vs the LS7s. If you do run LS7s, definitely replace the 4 lifter trays when you swap.
I imagine you're taking this into account, but the best way to get the LS3 intake is to buy a used one with the injectors and rails still in it. A buddy of mine got his for about $300 shipped to his door. The injectors are perfect for what you need, too. It's also worth noting you'd be on the edge of the stock injectors with the cathedral port setup. Mine were very close with my previous "cam only" 410 rwhp setup. Heads would have made me buy bigger ones.
I used the TSP 225/230 113 LSA LS3 cam in mine, and it's got a reasonably smooth idle at 900 rpm. I haven't really worked on the tune too much yet, so it could run even smoother. I might drop the speed down to make it sound a little more menacing, though. The cathedral port heads will require a rowdier cam to make the same power, and to me this is one of the biggest benefits of the LS3s.
I also would recommend going with a thin (.040) head gasket rather than milling, so as to maximize your piston to valve clearance, unless you want to run a cam that's even smaller than mine. With .030 milled stock heads, my cam would be too tight, IMO. Taking the volume out of the gasket has a bigger affect, because it's a larger area than the combustion chamber. This is what Patrick G recommended to a friend of mine with a similar setup.
I also decided to swap to a set of Lunati/Morel lifters on my car. I got them for $300, and I thought they were worth the peace of mind vs the LS7s. If you do run LS7s, definitely replace the 4 lifter trays when you swap.
I imagine you're taking this into account, but the best way to get the LS3 intake is to buy a used one with the injectors and rails still in it. A buddy of mine got his for about $300 shipped to his door. The injectors are perfect for what you need, too. It's also worth noting you'd be on the edge of the stock injectors with the cathedral port setup. Mine were very close with my previous "cam only" 410 rwhp setup. Heads would have made me buy bigger ones.
07-04-2011, 12:22 PM
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I just got my GTO running two days ago with a ported LS3 setup on my LS2. I think the LS3 stuff will work better for you, since you want the car to be pretty tame, like a Caddy.
I used the TSP 225/230 113 LSA LS3 cam in mine, and it's got a reasonably smooth idle at 900 rpm. I haven't really worked on the tune too much yet, so it could run even smoother. I might drop the speed down to make it sound a little more menacing, though. The cathedral port heads will require a rowdier cam to make the same power, and to me this is one of the biggest benefits of the LS3s.
I also would recommend going with a thin (.040) head gasket rather than milling, so as to maximize your piston to valve clearance, unless you want to run a cam that's even smaller than mine. With .030 milled stock heads, my cam would be too tight, IMO. Taking the volume out of the gasket has a bigger affect, because it's a larger area than the combustion chamber. This is what Patrick G recommended to a friend of mine with a similar setup.
I also decided to swap to a set of Lunati/Morel lifters on my car. I got them for $300, and I thought they were worth the peace of mind vs the LS7s. If you do run LS7s, definitely replace the 4 lifter trays when you swap.
I imagine you're taking this into account, but the best way to get the LS3 intake is to buy a used one with the injectors and rails still in it. A buddy of mine got his for about $300 shipped to his door. The injectors are perfect for what you need, too. It's also worth noting you'd be on the edge of the stock injectors with the cathedral port setup. Mine were very close with my previous "cam only" 410 rwhp setup. Heads would have made me buy bigger ones.
I used the TSP 225/230 113 LSA LS3 cam in mine, and it's got a reasonably smooth idle at 900 rpm. I haven't really worked on the tune too much yet, so it could run even smoother. I might drop the speed down to make it sound a little more menacing, though. The cathedral port heads will require a rowdier cam to make the same power, and to me this is one of the biggest benefits of the LS3s.
I also would recommend going with a thin (.040) head gasket rather than milling, so as to maximize your piston to valve clearance, unless you want to run a cam that's even smaller than mine. With .030 milled stock heads, my cam would be too tight, IMO. Taking the volume out of the gasket has a bigger affect, because it's a larger area than the combustion chamber. This is what Patrick G recommended to a friend of mine with a similar setup.
I also decided to swap to a set of Lunati/Morel lifters on my car. I got them for $300, and I thought they were worth the peace of mind vs the LS7s. If you do run LS7s, definitely replace the 4 lifter trays when you swap.
I imagine you're taking this into account, but the best way to get the LS3 intake is to buy a used one with the injectors and rails still in it. A buddy of mine got his for about $300 shipped to his door. The injectors are perfect for what you need, too. It's also worth noting you'd be on the edge of the stock injectors with the cathedral port setup. Mine were very close with my previous "cam only" 410 rwhp setup. Heads would have made me buy bigger ones.
, so you say it would perform better than a 243 setup huh 
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07-04-2011, 12:55 PM
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I vote for Maggie. Once you do H/C it's only a matter of time before it feels slow. Options are more limited at that point for more hp(fast 102/102/bigger cam/better heads...) my car feels like a turd at 440rwhp and once I spend another 1500 on the fast intake/throttle body/maf and a re tune I'm easily in forced induction range and it's again only a matter of time before I get the itch.
With the Maggie your car will sound and feel stock until you really get on it. It's a larger investment initially but you could end up spending more for less in the future. Really it going to be up to you/the type of person you are. Never know when your gonna catch the bug. Most think they won't... but do.
With the Maggie your car will sound and feel stock until you really get on it. It's a larger investment initially but you could end up spending more for less in the future. Really it going to be up to you/the type of person you are. Never know when your gonna catch the bug. Most think they won't... but do.
Last edited by SSmoked1; 07-04-2011 at 01:45 PM.
07-05-2011, 08:44 AM
#9
siimply because once you FI your pretty much done upgrading.
With FI, you have all the options still available to you (heads, cam, boost). With a high strung N/A build you are pretty much limited to spray and that's about it.
07-05-2011, 12:44 PM
#10
Better than stock 243s, absolutely. Ported 243s vs LS3s depends on a lot on how good the porting is. LS3 heads will make more power with less cam, though; that's just their nature. Aftermarket cathedral ports vs LS3 heads will likely be won buy the aftermarket heads; the fact that there is even a comparison speaks to the value of the LS3s, IMO.
07-05-2011, 09:40 PM
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Better than stock 243s, absolutely. Ported 243s vs LS3s depends on a lot on how good the porting is. LS3 heads will make more power with less cam, though; that's just their nature. Aftermarket cathedral ports vs LS3 heads will likely be won buy the aftermarket heads; the fact that there is even a comparison speaks to the value of the LS3s, IMO.
I just learned something new ,hats off to you big bro
07-06-2011, 03:20 PM
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cant you run a tvs1900/2300 or something? i would say thats your best bet. and will have alot of potential to grow in the future.
only problem i see with the l92s is piston to valve clearance.
although all your options can get you to where you want.
you may say i "only" want 430wheel, but how long are you going to want that for until your used to it want want more? just something to think about....
only problem i see with the l92s is piston to valve clearance.
although all your options can get you to where you want.
you may say i "only" want 430wheel, but how long are you going to want that for until your used to it want want more? just something to think about....
07-07-2011, 10:30 AM
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I've done several of both setups on LS2 based GTOs
I have a LS2 GTO of my own, and I went with LS3 heads with a mild cam. Once you weigh it all out like you've done, and figure in selling your 243s and etc....the cost/hp speaks for itself, as well as having a mild mannered car that idles almost like stock but brings the goods when you want to get on it.
I have a LS2 GTO of my own, and I went with LS3 heads with a mild cam. Once you weigh it all out like you've done, and figure in selling your 243s and etc....the cost/hp speaks for itself, as well as having a mild mannered car that idles almost like stock but brings the goods when you want to get on it.
07-18-2011, 12:11 PM
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Thanks for the input guys.
- Chris 442 what kind of numbers did you put down with your setup?
I started buying parts for the LS3 upper swap. Heads were $550 used, intake and injectors for $250, I'm just gonna buy a few parts a month till I have everything. Hopefully the weather will cool off by then as well.
I like the idea of running the 225/230 Texas Speed cam with unmilled ls3 heads and the .040 head gasket. I want to install all of the parts myself (and have done heads before), but Im a little nervous about the cam.
There is one company who is adapting the Eforce for ctsv's so that is an upgrade path later should I want to go there (although expensive)...
Thanks for the input.
Chris
- Chris 442 what kind of numbers did you put down with your setup?
I started buying parts for the LS3 upper swap. Heads were $550 used, intake and injectors for $250, I'm just gonna buy a few parts a month till I have everything. Hopefully the weather will cool off by then as well.
I like the idea of running the 225/230 Texas Speed cam with unmilled ls3 heads and the .040 head gasket. I want to install all of the parts myself (and have done heads before), but Im a little nervous about the cam.
There is one company who is adapting the Eforce for ctsv's so that is an upgrade path later should I want to go there (although expensive)...
Thanks for the input.
Chris
07-22-2011, 11:13 AM
#16
I am swapping in an lq4 with l92 heads (which I got WITH the *required* offset rockers for 600 shipped) and an ls3 intake (make sure you get a fuel rail or plan on going aftermarket, ls1/2 rail I do not think fit the ls3 intake. Also, your ls2 injectors are the same EV6 plugs (IIRC) as the ls3 style so you will benefit from not having to buy pigtails/etc.
I was planning on shaving my heads approx .015 and running a .050 gasket, maybe .040.
The problem I am having- I emailed 4 different sponsors of this site asking for cam recommendations for this setup (I am also looking for a tame cam, as I want to run a stock exhaust setup), and not one has replied. It has been over a week an a half since I began emailing. I think this is a bit ridiculous. If any sponsors see this thread and could chime in, it would be GREATLY appreciated.
I priced out what it would cost me to rebuild my broken ls1, and this was almost as cheap, plus now I can sell parts off my ls1 to try recouping part of the expense.
I was planning on shaving my heads approx .015 and running a .050 gasket, maybe .040.
The problem I am having- I emailed 4 different sponsors of this site asking for cam recommendations for this setup (I am also looking for a tame cam, as I want to run a stock exhaust setup), and not one has replied. It has been over a week an a half since I began emailing. I think this is a bit ridiculous. If any sponsors see this thread and could chime in, it would be GREATLY appreciated.
I priced out what it would cost me to rebuild my broken ls1, and this was almost as cheap, plus now I can sell parts off my ls1 to try recouping part of the expense.
Last edited by Specialized; 07-23-2011 at 04:06 AM.
07-23-2011, 10:36 PM
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ls3 I just put a ls3 top end on a 6.0 bottom in my 01 ws6. I used the comp cam 235 251. It makes great power but does not drive very well under 1600 rpm. Made 471 at 6500 through a 6 speed and a 9 inch with 3.89s. Im pulling it out and going to a Cheatr v3 or True Tork level 3.
07-24-2011, 07:07 PM
#18
I just put a ls3 top end on a 6.0 bottom in my 01 ws6. I used the comp cam 235 251. It makes great power but does not drive very well under 1600 rpm. Made 471 at 6500 through a 6 speed and a 9 inch with 3.89s. Im pulling it out and going to a Cheatr v3 or True Tork level 3.
I was strongly considering this as my choice for an off-the-shelf cam.
We need to keep in contact for comparison's sake when you get the new cam installed.
07-24-2011, 11:51 PM
#20
