Ported LS6 pump- stuck pressure relief valve = 0 oil pressure!!
09-12-2010, 07:02 AM
#1
Ported LS6 pump- stuck pressure relief valve = 0 oil pressure!! I'm at LSFest and incurred a oil pressure problem yesterday. Coming back to the pits from the speed stop challenge, I noticed my oil pressure at idle waiting for traffic to pass was 20psi, then increasing speed it quickly rose to above 40psi. I parked it in my pit area and it sat for a few minutes while I located some paper towels, then found that the oil level is 1/8-1/4" above the top of the hash marks.
I figured the oil just got hot and would go back to normal after it cooled. I got my blocks ready to change tires for the drive back to the hotel, and watched the oil pressure when I cranked the engine. Waited ~5s and then shut it off because the gauge didn't move from 0psi.
The oil system is German Castrol 0W30, stock F-body pan with the Improved Racing trap-door race baffle, LS7 lifters, K&N filter, Katech ported LS6 pump with the green o-ring. Motor was built on an engine stand. Replaced the oil pressure sender about a month ago with a new GM unit. Motor was just installed in July, and short of replacing a quirky sender moved over from the old motor, everything has been working great!
Over the course of the day, I had been making autocross runs maybe once every 15-20 minutes, maybe a total of 5-6 runs. Then the speed stop challenge, 4 attempts 10-15 minutes in between each.
My DMM is the probe type, not the alligator-clip type, so it's difficult to get it attached to the back of the sending unit connector to measure the voltage. Does that harness go to the PCM, or direct to the gauge? Could I measure the voltage at another location?
I talked to the builder and the guys fom SAM. The builder thought that if I was going to be beating on it by autocrossing it and participating in the speed stop challenge, then I should have something like a 15W50 in it. But I know lots of guys who use normal 10W30 oil in autocross duty and they don't seem to have issues.
Plan is to pull the drive side valvecover while trying to keep everything attached, start it for a few seconds to see if oil is getting to the top of the motor. If it is, we'll chase the electrical problem. If no oil from the top, I guess I have to find a way to tow it 800 miles home
I figured the oil just got hot and would go back to normal after it cooled. I got my blocks ready to change tires for the drive back to the hotel, and watched the oil pressure when I cranked the engine. Waited ~5s and then shut it off because the gauge didn't move from 0psi.
The oil system is German Castrol 0W30, stock F-body pan with the Improved Racing trap-door race baffle, LS7 lifters, K&N filter, Katech ported LS6 pump with the green o-ring. Motor was built on an engine stand. Replaced the oil pressure sender about a month ago with a new GM unit. Motor was just installed in July, and short of replacing a quirky sender moved over from the old motor, everything has been working great!
Over the course of the day, I had been making autocross runs maybe once every 15-20 minutes, maybe a total of 5-6 runs. Then the speed stop challenge, 4 attempts 10-15 minutes in between each.
My DMM is the probe type, not the alligator-clip type, so it's difficult to get it attached to the back of the sending unit connector to measure the voltage. Does that harness go to the PCM, or direct to the gauge? Could I measure the voltage at another location?
I talked to the builder and the guys fom SAM. The builder thought that if I was going to be beating on it by autocrossing it and participating in the speed stop challenge, then I should have something like a 15W50 in it. But I know lots of guys who use normal 10W30 oil in autocross duty and they don't seem to have issues.
Plan is to pull the drive side valvecover while trying to keep everything attached, start it for a few seconds to see if oil is getting to the top of the motor. If it is, we'll chase the electrical problem. If no oil from the top, I guess I have to find a way to tow it 800 miles home
Last edited by Whistler; 09-21-2010 at 03:54 PM.
09-12-2010, 08:12 AM
#2
I'm heading back to the track soon, and I have no idea if they have wifi in that area. My cell coverage is very weak there also. Since the board insists you come back to see if you have more than one response to a thread, I'll only see the first response and may not be able to reply.
BMR is there, maybe I can work out something with them if I need to tow back, else maybe a U-Haul.
BMR is there, maybe I can work out something with them if I need to tow back, else maybe a U-Haul.
09-13-2010, 07:54 AM
#4
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the thickness of the oil is determined by the engine,not the type of racing.If the engine builder says that particular engine should have 15w50 in it-0w30 isn't going to cut it.
09-13-2010, 06:24 PM
#5
Main bearing clearances are .0022-.0025. Rod bearing clearances are .0015-.0020. Wouldn't a 50-weight oil mitigate oil starvation to the bearings on cold startup, reduce fuel economy, and rob power? With it being a daily driver and thus started regularly, I wouldn't want to be regularly starving the bearings either.
I discussed the symptoms with Mike Norris, Judd Massengill from SAM, and one of the head guys from ERL, and all concurred the viscosity has nothing to do with the symptoms.
Yesterday morning I pulled the passenger valvecover and had one of the fellas from BMR watch the oil hole in the #2 rocker arm, and after ~4-5s it didn't push out any oil and we shut her off. I packed everything in the car, and Mike gratiously loaned me his phone because my T-Mobile phone was having horrible signal problems, and then also took me to U-Haul to pickup the towing equipment. Considered a car hauler, but too many unknowns in a short time window to consider it.
Left the grounds at 4PM Central time, arrived at builders house at 11AM Eastern time. I took one 1hr and one 2hr nap because the rumble strips were becoming very frequent (I always think of Cars when this happens!). So a fifteen hour trip at 9MPG
Took it right to the builders house so we could take advantage of the trailer and get under the car. Couldn't get the crank bolt loose because te trailer neck was preventing proper leverage. Loosened front cover and the front oil galley plug is still in the correct position. Next will check pump in a few days when his schedule clears up. Mike had mentioned that he had similar symptoms with a stuck check valve in a oil pump in the past.
Found the following thread talking about very similar problems, and the problem was the check valve. Hopefully the 3-4 times we started motor, 3-5s each, while the pressure was 0 to try different resolutions didn't cause further damage.
https://ls1tech.com/forums/generatio...-oil-pump.html
If it's the check valve, is this just the luck of the draw or are there methods to reduce this from recurring in the future?
I discussed the symptoms with Mike Norris, Judd Massengill from SAM, and one of the head guys from ERL, and all concurred the viscosity has nothing to do with the symptoms.
Yesterday morning I pulled the passenger valvecover and had one of the fellas from BMR watch the oil hole in the #2 rocker arm, and after ~4-5s it didn't push out any oil and we shut her off. I packed everything in the car, and Mike gratiously loaned me his phone because my T-Mobile phone was having horrible signal problems, and then also took me to U-Haul to pickup the towing equipment. Considered a car hauler, but too many unknowns in a short time window to consider it.
Left the grounds at 4PM Central time, arrived at builders house at 11AM Eastern time. I took one 1hr and one 2hr nap because the rumble strips were becoming very frequent (I always think of Cars when this happens!). So a fifteen hour trip at 9MPG
Took it right to the builders house so we could take advantage of the trailer and get under the car. Couldn't get the crank bolt loose because te trailer neck was preventing proper leverage. Loosened front cover and the front oil galley plug is still in the correct position. Next will check pump in a few days when his schedule clears up. Mike had mentioned that he had similar symptoms with a stuck check valve in a oil pump in the past.
Found the following thread talking about very similar problems, and the problem was the check valve. Hopefully the 3-4 times we started motor, 3-5s each, while the pressure was 0 to try different resolutions didn't cause further damage.
https://ls1tech.com/forums/generatio...-oil-pump.html
If it's the check valve, is this just the luck of the draw or are there methods to reduce this from recurring in the future?
09-15-2010, 10:11 PM
#6
We finally got the front cover off and pulled the oil pump tonight. Looking down the relief valve opening, the valve seems to be stuck down, showing a small D-shaped opening which seems to open towards the gerotor.
I'm having a real hard time getting a good photo because the pump needs to be at a severe angle to see the opening, and my flash is too far from the lens on my phone. I'll call Katech back tomorrow (I've already told Jason about the possibility Tuesday morning) and see what they have to say. I don't want to open the case without their written permission.
Shouldn't the valve be all the way up and not be able to see that opening?
I'm having a real hard time getting a good photo because the pump needs to be at a severe angle to see the opening, and my flash is too far from the lens on my phone. I'll call Katech back tomorrow (I've already told Jason about the possibility Tuesday morning) and see what they have to say. I don't want to open the case without their written permission.
Shouldn't the valve be all the way up and not be able to see that opening?
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09-20-2010, 12:01 PM
#8
I spoke with Jason again at Katech, and I bought another pump from them via overnight freight to get it installed over the weekend. Didn't pan out of the weekend, but hopefully everything will be finished today. Waiting for a return shipping label from Jason to send the old unit back for inspection. Hopefully the find something wrong with the pump to cause the valve to stick so I get the warranty refund.
09-22-2010, 08:35 AM
#11
I forgot to check it at cold start this morning, but driving it's at 60psi, and at a stoplight it's between 45-55psi. I asked about cutting open the old filter, but I forgot to pick it up... plus the motor probably has less than 3000 miles on it so there might still be stuff in the filter from motor break-in. So far I haven't heard anything unusual from the motor. I heard a high-pitched rattling noise echoing off cars on the way to work, but not the typical 'tinking' noise I heard on a previous motor when I spun bearings. That might be a loose heat shield, etc.
I think the engine builder commented that the valvetrain is a bit noisy due to the EPS lobed cam, but I thought the EPS lobes were supposed to be fairly docile? Build sheet shows 7.400" pushrods were used with the LS3 heads milled 30.
I think the engine builder commented that the valvetrain is a bit noisy due to the EPS lobed cam, but I thought the EPS lobes were supposed to be fairly docile? Build sheet shows 7.400" pushrods were used with the LS3 heads milled 30.
12-25-2010, 05:01 PM
#12
Having a similar issue with my new engine build. It was idling at about 3 or 4 bars, which is roughly around 40 psi.
After letting it run for its usual 30 mins for a few times over a week, I decided it was time to drive it. Seemed to be fine. After 3 weeks into the startup I took it to town the other day and after 5 mins into the drive I realized my oil pressure is dropping down past 1 bar, about 14 psi or less. The chevy mech man here told me the engine only need 4 psi per thousand to run.
It has a brand new oil pump and brand new everything. I am running royal purple break in oil. I took the pressure sender off and tried to hook my manual gauge up but it only reads 25psi or above. So no go, I unhooked the oil sender and cranked the engine and the oil came out. So I have oil travelling my engine.
There is no over heating problems, and I am not sure what to do next. Please help.
After letting it run for its usual 30 mins for a few times over a week, I decided it was time to drive it. Seemed to be fine. After 3 weeks into the startup I took it to town the other day and after 5 mins into the drive I realized my oil pressure is dropping down past 1 bar, about 14 psi or less. The chevy mech man here told me the engine only need 4 psi per thousand to run.
It has a brand new oil pump and brand new everything. I am running royal purple break in oil. I took the pressure sender off and tried to hook my manual gauge up but it only reads 25psi or above. So no go, I unhooked the oil sender and cranked the engine and the oil came out. So I have oil travelling my engine.
There is no over heating problems, and I am not sure what to do next. Please help.
