Ai 416 – 700hp+ Dyno Pics & Video
10-19-2010, 07:09 AM
#1
Ai 416 – 700hp+ Dyno Pics & Video Gents,
On occasion we like to build test engines to document both the potential of our products, as well as to collect data. Sometimes we are fortunate enough that our need for data coincides with a customer's need for a similar powerplant. I thought we'd share a little data on an engine that was built recently for a friend/customer - Tireburnin/Sean. Beyond data collection, our goal was to put together a low maintenance package that could essentially do it all - cruise, drag race, and tolerate a few hundred hp worth of n2o should the need arise. Sean was looking for ~650hp on pump fuel, which is typically easily attainable with the common 400cid+ engines. As a departure from the norm, we decided to give a carbureted 13:1 E85 setup a try. Our motivation was largely attributable to the prevalence of E85 in SOCAL, his familiarity with carburetion, and fueling consistency if he decided to bracket race the car. As an added benefit, this helped maintain a clean and simple look, so as to arouse minimal suspicion at the local races.
The Basics:
Block: GM LS3
Crank: Compstar 4" Stroke
Rods: Compstar H-Beam
Pistons: JE 4.070"
Rings: Total Seal
Heads: Ai 267cc CNC'd L92
Manifold: Victor Jr. - As Cast
Valve Train: Ai HR, Comp 1.7 Rockers, 3/8" PR, Morel HR Lifters
Oiling: GM OEM pump, pan, and pickup w/ 15w-50 Gibbs BR Oil
Water Pump: GM OEM
As with most of our setups, our primary focus is reliability and efficiency. To that end we are particularly over insured in regard to valve train on Sean's setup. Though we are running lobes that we can control with a beehive, we wanted to step it up a bit in the event Sean decided to have us revise the top-end for more power. With Ferrea valves, Morel HR lifters, Comp shaft mounts, and our custom Ti-17 retainers on PSI dual HR springs we're in a position to either move to something aggressive like an LSL, LSK, etc., or raise the operating range if so inclined. For now, due to concerns about drive train breakage leading to over revs, we decided to stick with something we can control to ~8000rpm.
The manifold was chosen simply because we were wanting to do some testing with it. As cast the Victor Jr. should easily support ~700hp, and running our smallest L92/LS3 CNC option, there was little reason to invest time in modifying it for this go 'round. For carburetion we ran two carbs from a known good supplier - Pro Systems. Both are 940-950cfm 4150 carbs, one for gas & one for E85.
As we're mostly using shelf parts, the valve train came together largely without issue. The head and valve covers both required minimal clearancing for the rocker system & pushrods, but that is not uncommon. Having done various mockups, we can now simply CNC the appropriate clearance into L92/LS3's for various shaft systems.
Rocker Mockup
Testing
For safety's sake we started on a known good non-oxygenated 108 octane fuel for break in and testing before going to E85 pump fuel. Timing was handled by an MSD 6LS box using GM LS1 coils. As we exceeded our goals, we were not inclined to push the limits on either fuel for the sake of dyno racing. We ran 34deg max on the 108, which consistently made 710-715 depending on temps. While E85 may often allow more timing, we backed it down 4-6deg through the entire curve. We're covered with high nickel content exhaust valves for n2o use, and were more concerned about possible issues on the pump fuel than the slightly higher EGT's. During pump fuel pulls the objective was to simply verify that it would run safely on E85 under load, not so much to determine what is possible with it since the load will vary slightly in real life vs. controlled dyno testing. Additionally, even with little timing, we wanted to collect #'s from low in the RPM range vs. the 108 octane testing which focused on the RPM range Sean will actually use it in. Once it is under the load range it will operate within, we will begin creeping up on it and fatten the low/mid curves on E85.
Dyno on 108
Dyno on E85 w/ less timing
Dyno Video
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=vYM2Fws8Qrc
Hope you guys like it! If I can dig up any other photos etc. I'll share them. In the future we'll make collecting build photos and video more than an afterthought so there's a little more eye candy to go along with the results.
Thanks guys!
-Phil
On occasion we like to build test engines to document both the potential of our products, as well as to collect data. Sometimes we are fortunate enough that our need for data coincides with a customer's need for a similar powerplant. I thought we'd share a little data on an engine that was built recently for a friend/customer - Tireburnin/Sean. Beyond data collection, our goal was to put together a low maintenance package that could essentially do it all - cruise, drag race, and tolerate a few hundred hp worth of n2o should the need arise. Sean was looking for ~650hp on pump fuel, which is typically easily attainable with the common 400cid+ engines. As a departure from the norm, we decided to give a carbureted 13:1 E85 setup a try. Our motivation was largely attributable to the prevalence of E85 in SOCAL, his familiarity with carburetion, and fueling consistency if he decided to bracket race the car. As an added benefit, this helped maintain a clean and simple look, so as to arouse minimal suspicion at the local races.
The Basics:
Block: GM LS3
Crank: Compstar 4" Stroke
Rods: Compstar H-Beam
Pistons: JE 4.070"
Rings: Total Seal
Heads: Ai 267cc CNC'd L92
Manifold: Victor Jr. - As Cast
Valve Train: Ai HR, Comp 1.7 Rockers, 3/8" PR, Morel HR Lifters
Oiling: GM OEM pump, pan, and pickup w/ 15w-50 Gibbs BR Oil
Water Pump: GM OEM
As with most of our setups, our primary focus is reliability and efficiency. To that end we are particularly over insured in regard to valve train on Sean's setup. Though we are running lobes that we can control with a beehive, we wanted to step it up a bit in the event Sean decided to have us revise the top-end for more power. With Ferrea valves, Morel HR lifters, Comp shaft mounts, and our custom Ti-17 retainers on PSI dual HR springs we're in a position to either move to something aggressive like an LSL, LSK, etc., or raise the operating range if so inclined. For now, due to concerns about drive train breakage leading to over revs, we decided to stick with something we can control to ~8000rpm.
The manifold was chosen simply because we were wanting to do some testing with it. As cast the Victor Jr. should easily support ~700hp, and running our smallest L92/LS3 CNC option, there was little reason to invest time in modifying it for this go 'round. For carburetion we ran two carbs from a known good supplier - Pro Systems. Both are 940-950cfm 4150 carbs, one for gas & one for E85.
As we're mostly using shelf parts, the valve train came together largely without issue. The head and valve covers both required minimal clearancing for the rocker system & pushrods, but that is not uncommon. Having done various mockups, we can now simply CNC the appropriate clearance into L92/LS3's for various shaft systems.
Rocker Mockup
Testing
For safety's sake we started on a known good non-oxygenated 108 octane fuel for break in and testing before going to E85 pump fuel. Timing was handled by an MSD 6LS box using GM LS1 coils. As we exceeded our goals, we were not inclined to push the limits on either fuel for the sake of dyno racing. We ran 34deg max on the 108, which consistently made 710-715 depending on temps. While E85 may often allow more timing, we backed it down 4-6deg through the entire curve. We're covered with high nickel content exhaust valves for n2o use, and were more concerned about possible issues on the pump fuel than the slightly higher EGT's. During pump fuel pulls the objective was to simply verify that it would run safely on E85 under load, not so much to determine what is possible with it since the load will vary slightly in real life vs. controlled dyno testing. Additionally, even with little timing, we wanted to collect #'s from low in the RPM range vs. the 108 octane testing which focused on the RPM range Sean will actually use it in. Once it is under the load range it will operate within, we will begin creeping up on it and fatten the low/mid curves on E85.
Dyno on 108
Dyno on E85 w/ less timing
Dyno Video
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=vYM2Fws8Qrc
Hope you guys like it! If I can dig up any other photos etc. I'll share them. In the future we'll make collecting build photos and video more than an afterthought so there's a little more eye candy to go along with the results.
Thanks guys!
-Phil
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10-20-2010, 08:44 AM
#13
I'm glad you guys like it, thanks for the kind words.
It should be a handful when he runs it on the street. While the carb may be restrictive relative to the giant inlet systems available now, it has phenomenal throttle response. I believe many have mediocre experiences with cheap/miscalibrated/misapplied carbs and write them off. There are trade offs with any system, but with a good unit from a competent specialist you can avoid many of the tuning issues.
Jim, I knew when I left them out that it'd likely be one of the first questions. The reason we often don't share the specs is that in our experience they are of little use aside from often fostering misconceptions. You cannot accurately judge a camshaft by the common .050/lift/lsa specs typically posted. It is similar to attempting to divine something useful about a cylinder head by reported flow #'s. Ultimately there are many grinds we could run that would make essentially the same #'s, but with different characteristics and compromises. For instance, a 23Xdeg LSK, or 24Xdeg XER grind could be used to make similar #'s. The cam that is ideal for Sean's 700hp 416 may not be ideal for another guy's 700hp 416 application. So, not to disregard your legit question or to be sarcastic, but "big enough to manage 700hp, small enough to drive well and peak below 7k with a large single plane and head, and mild enough to control to ~8k." 
$17-18k depending on what type of testing you'd like done on the engine dyno beyond break in and certifying that it meets power requirement. Some guys want 1-2 manifold setups they can swap between to run various classes etc.
The L92/LS3's are 260cc+ raised runner 15deg heads... no reason they won't make 700-800hp without going terribly exotic.
It's a "stock" GM LS3 block honed .005" over if that is what you are asking.
Hope that helps!
-Phil
$17-18k depending on what type of testing you'd like done on the engine dyno beyond break in and certifying that it meets power requirement. Some guys want 1-2 manifold setups they can swap between to run various classes etc.
The L92/LS3's are 260cc+ raised runner 15deg heads... no reason they won't make 700-800hp without going terribly exotic.
It's a "stock" GM LS3 block honed .005" over if that is what you are asking.
Hope that helps!
-Phil
10-20-2010, 09:14 AM
#15
Teching In
Jim, I knew when I left them out that it'd likely be one of the first questions. The reason we often don't share the specs is that in our experience they are of little use aside from often fostering misconceptions. You cannot accurately judge a camshaft by the common .050/lift/lsa specs typically posted. It is similar to attempting to divine something useful about a cylinder head by reported flow #'s. Ultimately there are many grinds we could run that would make essentially the same #'s, but with different characteristics and compromises. For instance, a 23Xdeg LSK, or 24Xdeg XER grind could be used to make similar #'s. The cam that is ideal for Sean's 700hp 416 may not be ideal for another guy's 700hp 416 application. So, not to disregard your legit question or to be sarcastic, but "big enough to manage 700hp, small enough to drive well and peak below 7k with a large single plane and head, and mild enough to control to ~8k."
-Phil
The cam sounded petty healthy in the video, that's what peaked my
curiosity. I'm fully aware of the head flow & valve timing to get the
correct combination for excellent results (which you have). Impressed
with the flat torque curve between 5200 and 6200. Nice job.
"
The L92/LS3's are 260cc+ raised runner 15deg heads... no reason they won't make 700-800hp without going terribly exotic".
Are these your castings or a GM casting?
Tanks
Jim
10-20-2010, 10:29 AM
#16
Phil,
The cam sounded petty healthy in the video, that's what peaked my
curiosity. I'm fully aware of the head flow & valve timing to get the
correct combination for excellent results (which you have). Impressed
with the flat torque curve between 5200 and 6200. Nice job.
"
The L92/LS3's are 260cc+ raised runner 15deg heads... no reason they won't make 700-800hp without going terribly exotic".
Are these your castings or a GM casting?
Tanks
Jim
The cam sounded petty healthy in the video, that's what peaked my
curiosity. I'm fully aware of the head flow & valve timing to get the
correct combination for excellent results (which you have). Impressed
with the flat torque curve between 5200 and 6200. Nice job.
"
The L92/LS3's are 260cc+ raised runner 15deg heads... no reason they won't make 700-800hp without going terribly exotic".
Are these your castings or a GM casting?
Tanks
Jim
Those are ported GM castings. Ai gets them from GM and works a little magic with the CNC machine (at least this is how it works out in my head) and then bolted them down with all the other parts.
Same heads available here:
http://s322636171.e-shop.info/shop/a...d%3D204.001%26
The heads on my engine are the smallest available at 267cc. There are also 270cc and 280cc available for different combinations. The heads on my engine don't have any special work.
10-20-2010, 10:34 AM
#17
Phil listed what a similar engine would cost to build. Your results may vary from mine because I supplied some parts from previous builds and used parts you may not need.
A similar custom carb through ProSystems is about $900. They have better options available now which I may switch to in the future. They now sell a billet setup called the EV1 which is worth 10-15hp over their custom Holley setups.
If you want a similar engine, I would call Ai for a quote. Different heads, valve train, or internals can greatly change the price.
A similar custom carb through ProSystems is about $900. They have better options available now which I may switch to in the future. They now sell a billet setup called the EV1 which is worth 10-15hp over their custom Holley setups.
If you want a similar engine, I would call Ai for a quote. Different heads, valve train, or internals can greatly change the price.
10-24-2010, 12:22 AM
#18
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Nice setup, but I am into more the real world high HP DDs, 13.1cr and e85 or 108 is not real world use to me, but please don't think I am knocking the setup, it's nasty 
But with that said, I guess I am to assume that a PUMP GAS 12:1 can't make 700+? I ask because I am building a 425CI/L92
Thanks!
DM
But with that said, I guess I am to assume that a PUMP GAS 12:1 can't make 700+? I ask because I am building a 425CI/L92
Thanks!
DM
10-24-2010, 10:37 AM
#19
Nice setup, but I am into more the real world high HP DDs, 13.1cr and e85 or 108 is not real world use to me, but please don't think I am knocking the setup, it's nasty
But with that said, I guess I am to assume that a PUMP GAS 12:1 can't make 700+? I ask because I am building a 425CI/L92
Thanks!
DM
But with that said, I guess I am to assume that a PUMP GAS 12:1 can't make 700+? I ask because I am building a 425CI/L92
Thanks!
DM
Good luck with your build up. I hope you reach your goals.
