Advanced the cam timing… throwing off cam/crank signal?
04-30-2014, 07:53 AM
#1
Advanced the cam timing… throwing off cam/crank signal? 
Engine is a 2008 5.3 basically stock with a turbo. 243 heads, 10:1 comp. Cam is a small aftermarket unit. 215/215 @112 .566” isky cam.
Although the engine seems to idle/run great, it is WAY down on power. I ran a 03 5.3 last year on the same turbo kit with 317 heads and a LS( cam installed “straight up”. I’m down around 10mph at the track from last year at the same boost. I have verified and synced the timing with my AEM EMS. Timing adjustments at WOT made little difference at the track. AFR’s are in check. Plugs look great (heat straps too).
The only thinkg I can think of is I installed an aftermarket cloyes “9 position” timing set this year. I advanced the crank gear 2*. Which should in turn give me 1* of advance on my cam for a little more bottom end.
Would advancing the crank 2* cause the crank/cam signals to be out of phase? Or maybe cause some sort of issue with the signal? Or is it pretty standard practice to advance/retard the crank timing gear on LS engines?
Can’t imagine it would make a difference, but Something is “off”.
04-30-2014, 08:38 AM
#2
Engine is a 2008 5.3 basically stock with a turbo. 243 heads, 10:1 comp. Cam is a small aftermarket unit. 215/215 @112 .566” isky cam.
Although the engine seems to idle/run great, it is WAY down on power. I ran a 03 5.3 last year on the same turbo kit with 317 heads and a LS( cam installed “straight up”. I’m down around 10mph at the track from last year at the same boost. I have verified and synced the timing with my AEM EMS. Timing adjustments at WOT made little difference at the track. AFR’s are in check. Plugs look great (heat straps too).
The only thinkg I can think of is I installed an aftermarket cloyes “9 position” timing set this year. I advanced the crank gear 2*. Which should in turn give me 1* of advance on my cam for a little more bottom end.
Would advancing the crank 2* cause the crank/cam signals to be out of phase? Or maybe cause some sort of issue with the signal? Or is it pretty standard practice to advance/retard the crank timing gear on LS engines?
Can’t imagine it would make a difference, but Something is “off”.
I would degree the cam if I were you. I've used other sets where you slid the crank gear on the snout so that the keyways goes into whichever slot has the setting you want, but when you install the cam gear, you still line them up dot to dot.
04-30-2014, 09:25 AM
#3
Technically, yes, it will be "out of phase" but that's pretty much the point. The newer engines do this stock with the hydraulic cam phasers, which advance and retard the cam on the fly.
I would degree the cam if I were you. I've used other sets where you slid the crank gear on the snout so that the keyways goes into whichever slot has the setting you want, but when you install the cam gear, you still line them up dot to dot.
I would degree the cam if I were you. I've used other sets where you slid the crank gear on the snout so that the keyways goes into whichever slot has the setting you want, but when you install the cam gear, you still line them up dot to dot.
Grasping at straws here I know. Can't figure why this thing is so down on power. Literally 10mph just to get to where I was last year... It should be making quite a bit more power than last year IMO.
Per the cloyes instructions, I believe I installed the timing set correctly for 1* of adv on the cam.
Are you saying I should have installed the crank gear as I did and then lined up the dots before installing the chain?
Thanks!
Last edited by Forcefed86; 04-30-2014 at 09:39 AM.
05-01-2014, 12:46 PM
#4
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cam to crank sensor When the OEM camshaft phaser moves the camshaft, it is moving the camshaft in relation to the camshaft timing gear but the cam gear is not moving in relation to the crankshaft so the cam to crank sensor offset angle stays the same. That is also what happens when you get a camshaft ground advanced or retarded or when you use a Hex-Adjust or a cam bushing to move the camshaft.
When you change the camshaft timing from the crank gear that is not the case and you are moving the camshaft timing gear in relation to the crankshaft.
The ECM expects some variation in this due to manufacturing tolerances and chain stretch but it the different is too big it will set a code and likely have to start in back-up mode which can lead to a long cranking condition (since the ECM has a 50/50 shot of knowing if the cylinder is on a firing or non-firing stroke). On some diagnostic tool data streams (for certain year vehicles) you can even see the reported camshaft to crankshaft error.
When you change the camshaft timing from the crank gear that is not the case and you are moving the camshaft timing gear in relation to the crankshaft.
The ECM expects some variation in this due to manufacturing tolerances and chain stretch but it the different is too big it will set a code and likely have to start in back-up mode which can lead to a long cranking condition (since the ECM has a 50/50 shot of knowing if the cylinder is on a firing or non-firing stroke). On some diagnostic tool data streams (for certain year vehicles) you can even see the reported camshaft to crankshaft error.
Technically, yes, it will be "out of phase" but that's pretty much the point. The newer engines do this stock with the hydraulic cam phasers, which advance and retard the cam on the fly.
I would degree the cam if I were you. I've used other sets where you slid the crank gear on the snout so that the keyways goes into whichever slot has the setting you want, but when you install the cam gear, you still line them up dot to dot.
I would degree the cam if I were you. I've used other sets where you slid the crank gear on the snout so that the keyways goes into whichever slot has the setting you want, but when you install the cam gear, you still line them up dot to dot.
05-01-2014, 12:48 PM
#5
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Cloyes instructions From the picture you provided it appears you have installed the camshaft correctly for 2 degrees of advance (2A). As you indicated that is 2 crank degrees or just 1 camshaft degree. That should make a fairly small change in power and would unlikely to be the cause of 100 hp deficit.
So since I’m using the Lingenfelter conversion box, do you think it is looking for the “straight up” installation and basing it’s signal off of that? I understand the cam to crank relation will be changed and that is the point... Just don't know how this is affecting the signal driving the injectors and ignition.
Grasping at straws here I know. Can't figure why this thing is so down on power. Literally 10mph just to get to where I was last year... It should be making quite a bit more power than last year IMO.
Per the cloyes instructions, I believe I installed the timing set correctly for 1* of adv on the cam.
Are you saying I should have installed the crank gear as I did and then lined up the dots before installing the chain?
Thanks!
Grasping at straws here I know. Can't figure why this thing is so down on power. Literally 10mph just to get to where I was last year... It should be making quite a bit more power than last year IMO.
Per the cloyes instructions, I believe I installed the timing set correctly for 1* of adv on the cam.
Are you saying I should have installed the crank gear as I did and then lined up the dots before installing the chain?
Thanks!
05-01-2014, 01:29 PM
#6
From the picture you provided it appears you have installed the camshaft correctly for 2 degrees of advance (2A). As you indicated that is 2 crank degrees or just 1 camshaft degree. That should make a fairly small change in power and would unlikely to be the cause of 100 hp deficit.
DO you think this 1 degree of mismatch could cause a coil to drop out at RPM or injection issues at higher rpms? AS said I see no errors on the signal LPE signal converter. Dropping a cylinder would certainly explain the power loss. It's about the only thing that makes sense to me at this point.
Compression is 160-163 across the board. Plugs look great and all very similar as far as the heat strap and coloring. I have leak tested the system...
05-01-2014, 01:35 PM
#7
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1 degree mismatch As I think I indicated in an earlier post on this thread or maybe the other one on the same topic, in your application since the camshaft and the crankshaft signal are actually coming from our TRG-002 signal conversion module, the camshaft sensor offset is hidden from the AEM engine controller.
Our module is outputting the cam/crank signal with no offset. Changing the relation between the cam and crank into our module doesn't change the output of our module. The offset in the inputs can cause our module to set a sync error code if that offset is too high and it could cause a no start condition but it sounds like you aren't having those problems so your error isn't high enough to be an issue.
Our module is outputting the cam/crank signal with no offset. Changing the relation between the cam and crank into our module doesn't change the output of our module. The offset in the inputs can cause our module to set a sync error code if that offset is too high and it could cause a no start condition but it sounds like you aren't having those problems so your error isn't high enough to be an issue.
The AEM EMS claims to use the cam signal for sequential injector firing. It only has 5 ign outputs so ignition has to be some sort of wasted spark I'd think.
DO you think this 1 degree of mismatch could cause a coil to drop out at RPM or injection issues at higher rpms? AS said I see no errors on the signal LPE signal converter. Dropping a cylinder would certainly explain the power loss. It's about the only thing that makes sense to me at this point.
Compression is 160-163 across the board. Plugs look great and all very similar as far as the heat strap and coloring. I have leak tested the system...
DO you think this 1 degree of mismatch could cause a coil to drop out at RPM or injection issues at higher rpms? AS said I see no errors on the signal LPE signal converter. Dropping a cylinder would certainly explain the power loss. It's about the only thing that makes sense to me at this point.
Compression is 160-163 across the board. Plugs look great and all very similar as far as the heat strap and coloring. I have leak tested the system...
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05-03-2014, 12:23 AM
#8
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I say use a degree wheel first and fore must is only way to know for sure where your timing is.
Hey man just by seen where your alignment is for your cam in relation to your crank sprocket dot mark, it sure seen to me you are in the neighborhood of 6 plus degrees advance, and if your cam by any chance is already advanced grinded you may be off a bit more you suspect.
My subjection is straight up go try it be happy.
Hey man just by seen where your alignment is for your cam in relation to your crank sprocket dot mark, it sure seen to me you are in the neighborhood of 6 plus degrees advance, and if your cam by any chance is already advanced grinded you may be off a bit more you suspect.
My subjection is straight up go try it be happy.
05-03-2014, 10:18 PM
#9
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Hey Force I had to come back with a little more time to analyze the picture, as they say is worth a thousand words, indeed you problem is unsuspected as I stated in my previous post, here's what I see:
notice looking at the pix the crank sprocket is way ahead of the cam rotation, in other words the cam is not advance but trailing the crank rotation therefore the situation is "one of way retard instead".
The way to play with cam timing is only by degree wheel cause is so convenient to get it rite from the get go.
Again straight up should get you back your smile.
notice looking at the pix the crank sprocket is way ahead of the cam rotation, in other words the cam is not advance but trailing the crank rotation therefore the situation is "one of way retard instead".
The way to play with cam timing is only by degree wheel cause is so convenient to get it rite from the get go.
Again straight up should get you back your smile.
05-03-2014, 10:47 PM
#10
Hey Force I had to come back with a little more time to analyze the picture, as they say is worth a thousand words, indeed you problem is unsuspected as I stated in my previous post, here's what I see:
notice looking at the pix the crank sprocket is way ahead of the cam rotation, in other words the cam is not advance but trailing the crank rotation therefore the situation is "one of way retard instead".
The way to play with cam timing is only by degree wheel cause is so convenient to get it rite from the get go.
Again straight up should get you back your smile.
notice looking at the pix the crank sprocket is way ahead of the cam rotation, in other words the cam is not advance but trailing the crank rotation therefore the situation is "one of way retard instead".
The way to play with cam timing is only by degree wheel cause is so convenient to get it rite from the get go.
Again straight up should get you back your smile.
Appreciate the input...
It's all apart now. Waiting on the degree wheel. I hope it's that simple...
I was told by the grinder of the cam to put it at 110.5-112*. Said it was made for the OEM gear set "straight up". So who know what it's at with the cloyes set and 2* adv.
His is at 110.5. It's tempting to throw it in straight up and button it back up, but I'd really like to know what I'm at now.
05-05-2014, 08:47 AM
#11
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Cloyes adjustable crank sprocket The picture at the beginning of this thread shows the crank sprocket and timing gear installed correctly for the Cloyes Adjustable crank sprocket style timing gear set. This is not a stock crank sprocket. It has multiple keyways machined into it as a way to adjust the cam timing (odd way to adjust cam timing as it may seem).
Hey Force I had to come back with a little more time to analyze the picture, as they say is worth a thousand words, indeed you problem is unsuspected as I stated in my previous post, here's what I see:
notice looking at the pix the crank sprocket is way ahead of the cam rotation, in other words the cam is not advance but trailing the crank rotation therefore the situation is "one of way retard instead".
The way to play with cam timing is only by degree wheel cause is so convenient to get it rite from the get go.
Again straight up should get you back your smile.
notice looking at the pix the crank sprocket is way ahead of the cam rotation, in other words the cam is not advance but trailing the crank rotation therefore the situation is "one of way retard instead".
The way to play with cam timing is only by degree wheel cause is so convenient to get it rite from the get go.
Again straight up should get you back your smile.
05-05-2014, 09:34 AM
#12
Straight up should get me 1 degree less cam advance. Shouldn't make much difference at all IMO. That is unless the grind on the cam is off to start with. I got my degree wheel and broke my spring tool...
New one should arrive by thurs.
New one should arrive by thurs.
05-08-2014, 12:06 PM
#13
The picture at the beginning of this thread shows the crank sprocket and timing gear installed correctly for the Cloyes Adjustable crank sprocket style timing gear set. This is not a stock crank sprocket. It has multiple keyways machined into it as a way to adjust the cam timing (odd way to adjust cam timing as it may seem).
I was able to select crank only operation in my AEM and the car was still just as down on power but it did run fine. Since I have torn the front of the motor down to degree the cam. "Dot to Dot" on my Cloyes timing set I was 6.5* retarded from the cam cards .050 IVO spec!
So basically I tried all the Cloyes keyways on the crank gear. With maxed adv on the crank gear (8*) I was able to get the cam close to the cam card. This puts me 1.5* adv from the cam cards .050 IVO spec.
I'm OK with this cam position. Though with 8* of adv on the crank gear alone I'm sure this will throw the trouble code on the Lingenfelter signal converter box.
My question is...
With the error code will the box continue to output the crank signal?
On a side note: Out of curiosity I installed an OEM timing crank gear. And it's only 1* retarded with the OEM set "dot to dot" So its the cloyes crank gear that appears to be "off".
05-10-2014, 02:31 PM
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Jason quick question...
I was able to select crank only operation in my AEM and the car was still just as down on power but it did run fine. Since I have torn the front of the motor down to degree the cam. "Dot to Dot" on my Cloyes timing set I was 6.5* retarded from the cam cards .050 IVO spec!
So basically I tried all the Cloyes keyways on the crank gear. With maxed adv on the crank gear (8*) I was able to get the cam close to the cam card. This puts me 1.5* adv from the cam cards .050 IVO spec.
I'm OK with this cam position. Though with 8* of adv on the crank gear alone I'm sure this will throw the trouble code on the Lingenfelter signal converter box.
My question is...
With the error code will the box continue to output the crank signal?
On a side note: Out of curiosity I installed an OEM timing crank gear. And it's only 1* retarded with the OEM set "dot to dot" So its the cloyes crank gear that appears to be "off".
I was able to select crank only operation in my AEM and the car was still just as down on power but it did run fine. Since I have torn the front of the motor down to degree the cam. "Dot to Dot" on my Cloyes timing set I was 6.5* retarded from the cam cards .050 IVO spec!
So basically I tried all the Cloyes keyways on the crank gear. With maxed adv on the crank gear (8*) I was able to get the cam close to the cam card. This puts me 1.5* adv from the cam cards .050 IVO spec.
I'm OK with this cam position. Though with 8* of adv on the crank gear alone I'm sure this will throw the trouble code on the Lingenfelter signal converter box.
My question is...
With the error code will the box continue to output the crank signal?
On a side note: Out of curiosity I installed an OEM timing crank gear. And it's only 1* retarded with the OEM set "dot to dot" So its the cloyes crank gear that appears to be "off".
I REST MY CASE !