WARHAWK or C5R-WHICH DO YOU PREFER? - LS1TECH

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WARHAWK or C5R-WHICH DO YOU PREFER?

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Old 04-12-2007, 01:02 PM   #1
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Default WARHAWK or C5R-WHICH DO YOU PREFER?

Among the many Warhawk design priorities was the need to give serious racers the strength they needed at high power levels. To that end, much thought was given to the water jacketing and it's cores. The chosen solution was to encircle the bores and stud bosses for maximum strength and run the water around the outer perimeter. Much more parent aluminum around the bores and no cooling efficiency was sacrificed as this is an aluminum piece. We are comparing aluminum choices for the consumer.

Illustrated here is the C5R. The deck has been milled .600 to expose the core. Note that the jacket encircles the bores and isolates the stud bosses.
Click the image to open in full size.
Note how the aluminum thickness is only the circumference of the bore when seen through this block window.
Click the image to open in full size.
The bottom of C5R's bores in the crankcase. This block sent it's sleeves to Heaven just over 900HP. True-it was designed for endurance racing at 600-700 power levels.
Click the image to open in full size.

Seen here is a 9.24 Warhawk. The deck was .625 thick and we cut it a total of 1.100 for this model. The bore is 4.120 and the sleeve is .076. Total material is .284 nominal between bores. Clearly evident is the jacket running around the perimeter and the integrity of the bore/stud area.
Click the image to open in full size.
Note the details and thickness of material.
Click the image to open in full size.
Click the image to open in full size.
Compare the crankcase area:The entire bore area is solid, not scalloped around the bores.
Click the image to open in full size.
No, we don't think that C5R is a fair comparison for us anyway. Especially with C5R costing more than Warhawk.
We're confident from a power-level standpoint that the iron LS-X is-or rather, may be-the mark. Yes, it will be cheaper and will make big displacement-we will "only" get to 481 with our 9.8 deck. But it better handle bigger power than Warhawk to overcome the 100 lb difference.
When they become available we'll have to cut one of those open...
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Old 04-12-2007, 01:06 PM   #2
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Looks good. Personally, I feel that your block and the LSX block are not direct competitors. Each will have it's own niche market, and be very successful in it.
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Old 04-12-2007, 01:08 PM   #3
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Thanks for the pics...when the time comes, I'd love to have a Warhawk block in my car, but for my purposes (street cruiser/fun car), it might be a bit much. At least we now have options...

When will you have your Warhawk/LS7X head results?
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Old 04-12-2007, 01:37 PM   #4
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Warhawk block is the best solution currently but you guys have to make it available soon ..... you loose lots of customers the way these blocks has been delayed all the time , its almost like a bad joke when you speak with ppl that ordered a block 1 year ago and you can see them selling the contracts on the forums thats tragic. Dont say that you have the blocks ready until they are or ppl will just be pissed as it is right now and go another direction.
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Old 04-12-2007, 01:43 PM   #5
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ace,
You are ABSOLUTELY right-all the way from Sweden. We have delivered 20 or so and are waiting for 40 more to knock down some of the 100 block back order. Beginning May we'll get regular foundry deliveries.
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Old 04-12-2007, 02:15 PM   #6
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anything is better than the C5R block, i know 3 people who have dropped sleeves. i love the part where the full cylinder is enclosed.
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Old 04-12-2007, 03:01 PM   #7
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Where is your foundry located?
Is the Warhawk built here in the USA, with TIGHT quality control standards?
Is there a write-up somewhere showing how an Al block is made?

EDIT: I don't mean to sound like a jerk, I am just curious how products like this are made and brought to market...
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Old 04-12-2007, 03:10 PM   #8
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i would like to have more info on the production process also
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Old 04-12-2007, 03:16 PM   #9
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gun,
Our foundry is proprietary information. All our stuff is to QS 9000. We're looking for 1200-1800HP-does that sound like poor quality control?
Our tolerance level is +/-.0005 to GM's.
How much power are you planning? Do you always equate "...built here in the USA" with "TIGHT quality control standards"?
Yes, there is a write-up somewhere. If we show you how we build it will you buy one?

Hey, I saw your edit right after I posted a reply. Not trying to be a Bozo either-but we get this stuff all the time. Some guys want the molecular content of our stuff and WHY.
Honest-some things I can't talk about-but I promise, our stuff does NOT come from Japan, China, India, Korea, Taiwan or Latvia.
And making this stuff is a really big PIA process and huge expense-especially when done in small numbers. GM puts more engines in taxis in ONE city than we sell blocks.
The pattern, tooling, casting, machining and marketing of this stuff is hugely complex and there are probably a ton of books on the subject.

Last edited by MerlinPro; 04-12-2007 at 03:31 PM..
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Old 04-12-2007, 03:32 PM   #10
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I like the priority main oil system revision that was designed into the block. You have my vote and a future sell!
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Old 04-12-2007, 03:41 PM   #11
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I didn't mean to sound mean.
I was just curious where they were made, thats all. I didn't know that where your block is poured was private info, or I wouldn't have asked.
I do find that parts made here in the US have, on average, better quality and quality control, at a greater cost, than parts made overseas.

If I could afford to build a motor, I would likely buy an Al block and the Warhawk would be my first choice.

All I was doing in my first post was trying to gain knowledge of how the best parts in the world are designed and manufactured. I like to try and learn everything I can about engines in general so that was all I intended.

Thanks for the time though, and have a good day!
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Old 04-12-2007, 05:26 PM   #12
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gun,
Really appreciate your clarification and kind words about our stuff. We are busting *** to make costly parts to a very high standard to give value to the buyer.
Much better when there's no misunderstanding on the web. Good day to you too
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Old 04-12-2007, 10:19 PM   #13
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From the photos, the Warhawk is a very impressive block casting.
You guys deserve a big high five for taking the time to engineer a technically difficult part. The operating demands on parts such as blocks are increasing year after year and that's a major reason why we don't see dozens of manufacturers stepping in to try to market similar products. My hat's off to you guys for your efforts.

Coming from a cylinder head guy, do you think you and GM could come together on one common 6 bolt setup?
Thanks for the thread and your contribution to the Gen 3 community.

Richard
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Old 04-13-2007, 01:44 AM   #14
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MerlinPro, i think your work is great. your block looks really good and, when you can get the back orders down, should be a winner!

also i dont think you need to worry too much about the LSx block at the min. luckly you have targeted a diffrent segment to the one GM was looking for. also i think if you went the same way with this block asa you have others, ie creat engines, you will be on to a winner.

on the main in the USA thing. im form the UK so i dont like to coment too much. but seriously guy the sweeds are great enginers. and as long as they meet the requierments then there shoukd really be NO worry thats the blocks not cast on your back door.

thanks for the very intresting pics.

Chris.
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Old 04-13-2007, 06:28 AM   #15
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hey chuntington, what he was saying about not made in the usa had nothing to do with western europe. odds are if its for sale in america but not made here it came from east asia which doesnt give you the best quality.
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Old 04-13-2007, 07:17 AM   #16
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Richard and Chris,
We really appreciate the kind words. Bill and our guys work really hard to think things out on this stuff. The public seldom gets to see inside and all the engineering involved and I thought they should in this case.
I also found out it takes one full day to cut 1.1 off a block and sleeves on a Rottler.
As for your thought on 6-bolt patterns-I've already experienced seismic activity on the other thread...
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Old 04-13-2007, 08:51 AM   #17
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yeah, lets all just drop the whole 6 head bolt thing lol.
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Old 04-13-2007, 02:49 PM   #18
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Unfortunately i work in the automotive industry and i can tell you that there are some products coming from "Outside" the US that are very good quality, on par with some of the best here....but on the other hand there are a lot of products that don't have the quality due to profit potential of getting stuff out quick.... and some of it is related to materials, China for one, is busting a$$ to get all the steel they can and sacrifice some quality in materials to do it. That leads to some pretty crappy material being put on the market....or sent over here because they are using all the good stuff, which ever the case may be.

The big thing about manufacturing overseas is the communications between the engineers and the manufacturing floor. Also selecting a competent machine shop goes a long way. I don't advocate sending jobs overseas, but it's a new world with the "global" economy. Hopefully China eases up with the currency peg and then we'll starting seeing jobs come back due to the increase in value of the Chinese currency.

As for blocks...There are definite power goal differences with these two blocks that is for sure. The consumer needs to be educated on power levels that the products are being designed for... just like cranks and rods need this.... i know it's tough for some companies to do and many don't take the time to develop the parameters/parts list for each part they make. I use cranks as an example... they should be able to give you a piston weight and companion rod that is good to this RPM AND Hp level... and then NA or blower application….But good luck finding that info. Even if you call they are very conservative in application advice.

I applaud world for taking an active roll in educating the public in what their products are designed to handle and the correct applications it should be used.
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Old 04-13-2007, 03:53 PM   #19
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Scotty,
Thanks for an accurate assement of current conditions. I want to stress again to those who are sensitive to mfg locations-we are not in Asia at all. That's all I can say.
Knowing at what level parts give up is a great idea, but you are right-"good luck".
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Old 04-13-2007, 04:48 PM   #20
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Quote:
Originally Posted by MerlinPro
Richard and Chris,
I also found out it takes one full day to cut 1.1 off a block and sleeves on a Rottler.
(
What is 1.1 and what is a Rottler?
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Old 04-13-2007, 04:48 PM
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