LS1 Land Rover Discovery II ? Again?
09-16-2012, 02:39 PM
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LS1 Land Rover Discovery II ? Again? This has been kicked around off and on with most threads abruptly ending without a clear idea if it will work or not. I'm curious about how one would get a LS1 to work in a Land Rover Discovery II. Recently I found an interesting thread on a LR forum that would retain the LR ECU and then use all of the needed info sensors on the GM engine, figuring the ECU doesn't care what metal it's running as long as it goes the correct info from temp, O2, Air, timing, etc. Supposedly the timing order is the same between the aluminum Rover engine and the GM and resistance at the injectors is close enough to be in spec. Is this a no go for other reasons? If so what would be the most challenging part? I'm aware of the weight and torque concerns but a 4.8 or mild 5.3 should be within the transmissions torque spec. Adaptors can be made (already made in Australia I think). If the above idea sounds silly, is using a custom LS1 ECU to work with the Rover doable? I've read some posts with LS1's being plugged into late model BMW's and would thing that would have similar challenges.
Some background info, I know very little about tuning LS1's so forgive the redundancy or nativity of my questions, but am intrigued. LR Discovery's are, IMO, great trucks with a crappy engine. The mantainence requirements and failure rate of these engines is epic. Discos are also now cheap enough and make a project like this financially interesting. Any info appreciated.
Some background info, I know very little about tuning LS1's so forgive the redundancy or nativity of my questions, but am intrigued. LR Discovery's are, IMO, great trucks with a crappy engine. The mantainence requirements and failure rate of these engines is epic. Discos are also now cheap enough and make a project like this financially interesting. Any info appreciated.
09-16-2012, 07:34 PM
#4
This has been kicked around off and on with most threads abruptly ending without a clear idea if it will work or not. I'm curious about how one would get a LS1 to work in a Land Rover Discovery II. Recently I found an interesting thread on a LR forum that would retain the LR ECU and then use all of the needed info sensors on the GM engine, figuring the ECU doesn't care what metal it's running as long as it goes the correct info from temp, O2, Air, timing, etc. Supposedly the timing order is the same between the aluminum Rover engine and the GM and resistance at the injectors is close enough to be in spec. Is this a no go for other reasons? If so what would be the most challenging part? I'm aware of the weight and torque concerns but a 4.8 or mild 5.3 should be within the transmissions torque spec. Adaptors can be made (already made in Australia I think). If the above idea sounds silly, is using a custom LS1 ECU to work with the Rover doable? I've read some posts with LS1's being plugged into late model BMW's and would thing that would have similar challenges.
Some background info, I know very little about tuning LS1's so forgive the redundancy or nativity of my questions, but am intrigued. LR Discovery's are, IMO, great trucks with a crappy engine. The mantainence requirements and failure rate of these engines is epic. Discos are also now cheap enough and make a project like this financially interesting. Any info appreciated.
Some background info, I know very little about tuning LS1's so forgive the redundancy or nativity of my questions, but am intrigued. LR Discovery's are, IMO, great trucks with a crappy engine. The mantainence requirements and failure rate of these engines is epic. Discos are also now cheap enough and make a project like this financially interesting. Any info appreciated.
PS Rovers use SBC firing order.
09-17-2012, 08:40 AM
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http://landroverforums.com/forum/dis...nking**-38000/
09-17-2012, 11:38 AM
#6
I personally don't think the Rover ECU would be up to something like this, they is a very small handful of people that can even flash them with a map to run the LS1, and they are all in Europe. You would have to change the cam to traditional firing order as well. A ls1 would destroy the drivetrain on a Disco and if you tried to use the GM PCM on that chassis you would have to get rid of your traction control and ABS which to my understand pretty much cannot be deleted on the D2 due to integration of the SLAB's and ABS into the ECU's monitoring systems.
You could do it... but you are talking about turning it into a chopped up hunk of crap for just trail riding in which there are a hundred better trucks to start with if that is what you want to do.
This topic has been beaten to death on ever Rover forum you care to search, its really just not a realistic swap. The D2 chassis just has to much electrical stuff integrated into the ECU. If you really, really want a LS motor in a Rover. Find an old Series 1, series 2 or Defender and slap a carbed LS1 in there. I know a guy that has a old series that run off propane. You can put anything in them, you'll just want to change that axle out if putting a large v8 in there.
Why not just stick with the Buick V8 it is basically a SBC?
You could do it... but you are talking about turning it into a chopped up hunk of crap for just trail riding in which there are a hundred better trucks to start with if that is what you want to do.
This topic has been beaten to death on ever Rover forum you care to search, its really just not a realistic swap. The D2 chassis just has to much electrical stuff integrated into the ECU. If you really, really want a LS motor in a Rover. Find an old Series 1, series 2 or Defender and slap a carbed LS1 in there. I know a guy that has a old series that run off propane. You can put anything in them, you'll just want to change that axle out if putting a large v8 in there.
Why not just stick with the Buick V8 it is basically a SBC?
09-17-2012, 12:30 PM
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Likely you are correct, it has been tossed around quite a bit. What keeps me motivated is that there has, to my knowledge, not been a clear reason why it will not work. I guess someone has to be the test mule, might be me unless I get this Disco bug to pass. As you mentioned the Rover electronics are plenty and integral to the trucks performance, so you don’t want to butcher them all out. What I was hoping was that by sending the engine data to the Rover ECU via the correct sensors, O2, MAF, etc. Everything down stream at the BCU, Trans, wouldn’t know or care what engine is in it thus avoiding an ECU swap.
As for power, a 4.8 or 5.3 has nearly the same torque as the Buick 4.6, slightly more but within the HP24’s torque ratings. I don’t own a Disco….yet, but in doing my due diligence it seems all 4.6’s are terminally flawed. I subscribe to the theory the tooling was worn out by the time they started 03-04’s and most all block castings are flawed causing slipped liners, oil pumps that grenade, on and on. The earlier 4.0 are better but still hit and miss. It’s a shame because an all aluminum V-8 is pretty cool in any vehicle.
I would stay with the Buick except a proper top hat rebuild would be at least 6-8k installed, likely more. Put that $$ behind a LS1 project, who knows? And last of all, Disco’s are getting real cheap and plentiful. Most are at 100k and the original, 2nd, 3rd owners are bailing out. I missed a clean 04’ locally at a Dodge dealer for $4900. This makes the market ripe for a tuner to go after these with a kit or harness, DYI whatever. The trucks are still desirable, good looking and modern. I’ll keep a candle lit for that one LS1 tuner guy who sees the light!
As for power, a 4.8 or 5.3 has nearly the same torque as the Buick 4.6, slightly more but within the HP24’s torque ratings. I don’t own a Disco….yet, but in doing my due diligence it seems all 4.6’s are terminally flawed. I subscribe to the theory the tooling was worn out by the time they started 03-04’s and most all block castings are flawed causing slipped liners, oil pumps that grenade, on and on. The earlier 4.0 are better but still hit and miss. It’s a shame because an all aluminum V-8 is pretty cool in any vehicle.
I would stay with the Buick except a proper top hat rebuild would be at least 6-8k installed, likely more. Put that $$ behind a LS1 project, who knows? And last of all, Disco’s are getting real cheap and plentiful. Most are at 100k and the original, 2nd, 3rd owners are bailing out. I missed a clean 04’ locally at a Dodge dealer for $4900. This makes the market ripe for a tuner to go after these with a kit or harness, DYI whatever. The trucks are still desirable, good looking and modern. I’ll keep a candle lit for that one LS1 tuner guy who sees the light!
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09-17-2012, 01:07 PM
#8
Well... there are a lot of reasons behind why the Buick motors fail. The most common is to much temperature. As you know the engine bay on the disco is pretty tight. The old rover engine is like an 80 year old design. Part of the reason it was retired is because it could not keep pace with emission laws. One of the ways that the crutches the emissions on these engines was with the tuning. I'm not sure if you will be able to use the sensors already installed I don't know. But I know that engine management is tied to all the other vehicle computer systems via Vin number and any tuning you would do has to be flashed to the current ECU. A swap would likely be 100 times easier in a D1. No ABS/TC to contend with and much simpler electronics however the electronics on the D1's are more finicky and prone to going haywire.
If you bought a Rover your money would be alot better put to use pulling the engine, doing new bearings headgasket cam and lifters. I am in the current process of doing cam, lifters and headgaskets on my mine at the moments. Get good quality wires, STI or Magnecore only. Platinum 4 plugs and that thing will hum along fine for another 100k. Get one of the better lower temp thermostats from Justin at Lucky8. I was told by a Britsh guy that build high horsepower rover v8's for swap car (they use them for kit cars over there like we use the LS1) that you should always use conventional oil in the Rover v8 because they need the detergents as its a somewhat dirty engine. Don't know if there is much stock in this information but this place is one of the best places to get better cams for the Land Rovers and do cylinder heads and blocks for the swap motors.
In all honest the slipped liner issue only happens when people don't maintain their their rovers properly. I've seen it tons of times. The external thermostat is plastic and it will get brittle and crack and get stuck closed. The rover coolant system is designed to give you the luxury of heat in the winter seconds after start up, if the thermostat gets stuck closed the coolant never passes the radiator and the engine will grenade in seconds.
Get one do the tune up service and headgasket it you have higher mileage and drive it. The Buick motors are plenty fine for wheeling as they are. Dumping that kind of cash into a swap that will probably not work is just a silly gamble in my opinion when the rover platform has been proven to work great.
Used parts are every where and if the motor blows guess what!
there is always people parting rovers and you can get a running motor for 6-800 bucks.
Be prepared, owning a Rover is not something everyone will put up with. If you get an abused one the electrics can be a nightmare. Take it somewhere and get it hooked up to Testbook or Autologic and read the ECU.
The ABS traction control system can be a nightmare to sort out.
I hope you don't mind troubleshooting troubleshooting and troubleshooting.
There is a reason they are so cheap
you have to be a fool to own one.
But since I've had minde I have fallen in love with it. If you have no plans to use it off road and want a decent looking SUV with an american v8... buy an Escalade.
If you bought a Rover your money would be alot better put to use pulling the engine, doing new bearings headgasket cam and lifters. I am in the current process of doing cam, lifters and headgaskets on my mine at the moments. Get good quality wires, STI or Magnecore only. Platinum 4 plugs and that thing will hum along fine for another 100k. Get one of the better lower temp thermostats from Justin at Lucky8. I was told by a Britsh guy that build high horsepower rover v8's for swap car (they use them for kit cars over there like we use the LS1) that you should always use conventional oil in the Rover v8 because they need the detergents as its a somewhat dirty engine. Don't know if there is much stock in this information but this place is one of the best places to get better cams for the Land Rovers and do cylinder heads and blocks for the swap motors.
In all honest the slipped liner issue only happens when people don't maintain their their rovers properly. I've seen it tons of times. The external thermostat is plastic and it will get brittle and crack and get stuck closed. The rover coolant system is designed to give you the luxury of heat in the winter seconds after start up, if the thermostat gets stuck closed the coolant never passes the radiator and the engine will grenade in seconds.
Get one do the tune up service and headgasket it you have higher mileage and drive it. The Buick motors are plenty fine for wheeling as they are. Dumping that kind of cash into a swap that will probably not work is just a silly gamble in my opinion when the rover platform has been proven to work great.
Used parts are every where and if the motor blows guess what!
there is always people parting rovers and you can get a running motor for 6-800 bucks.Be prepared, owning a Rover is not something everyone will put up with. If you get an abused one the electrics can be a nightmare. Take it somewhere and get it hooked up to Testbook or Autologic and read the ECU.
The ABS traction control system can be a nightmare to sort out.
I hope you don't mind troubleshooting troubleshooting and troubleshooting.
There is a reason they are so cheap
you have to be a fool to own one.But since I've had minde I have fallen in love with it. If you have no plans to use it off road and want a decent looking SUV with an american v8... buy an Escalade.
Last edited by My6speedZ; 09-17-2012 at 01:13 PM.
09-17-2012, 08:53 PM
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Thanks for the info. Too bad it's not easier, would be a great match. Just seems if someone can make an OBDII BMW or Lexus work, why not a Disco? I may have to go head first into the LR pond to learn my lesson. As an owner are you a slave to the dealer for trouble shooting or is there a way to read codes etc as a DYI? I did find out the Disco is Bosch Motronic, same system used on most BMW's of that era. For what it's worth, the below link lays out the Disco ECU map of sorts.
http://web.nanocom.it/download/BOSCH...0and%20P38.pdf
http://web.nanocom.it/download/BOSCH...0and%20P38.pdf
09-18-2012, 12:44 AM
#10
I use a regular scanner to check the engine codes. But I bought the ABS amigo tool to clear the ABS code. These are different and a normal scanner won't clear the ABS faults.
A dealer will charge you 75 bucks just to hook up to Testbook. Although there really is no beating that if you want to check something like your o2 or fuel pump operation.
The p38/d2 Thor ecu is not just like the regular motronic system.
I wouldn't go putting alot of power through that drivetrain. Like I said an LS1 would destroy the t/c and axle diffs. The axles them selves even become a liability after 32 inch tires.
Rovers aren't made for power, they are made for smooth torque. They are made for true off-roading not mud bogging. No need for big block power. If your not planning on trail riding at all. Then I would seriously consider a different truck. I bought my D2 for my ex-wife because she loved the way it looked. I kept it after the divorce and since I have a DD it became another toy when I learned how capable they are off road, so now I plan on making it a mild trail ride.
I already did springs, I will be adding shock, longer brake lines, and I already have a D1 shifter. With the traction control and center diff locks. This is as close as you will come to a fully locked differential without opening them up and actually changing the units.
Also, if you did remove the ABS/TC unless you have a 04 D2 or get a shifter linkage from a D1 you will have no 4-wheel drive capability at all. The D2's except for the 04's don't have center diff locks, and relied SOLELY on the traction control for their 4-wheeling capabilities. The 2000 and 2001 ones have the internal parts in the transfer case to make it work you just need the shift linkage, but the 02 and 03 don't even have the internals.
If you do buy one you need to check the roto joints. The prop shafts is a sealed unit that can't be maintained and it gets dripped on from the AC condenser making it wear out, and when it goes they have a nasty habit of smacking a hole in the transmission case.
This is my Rover
A dealer will charge you 75 bucks just to hook up to Testbook. Although there really is no beating that if you want to check something like your o2 or fuel pump operation.
The p38/d2 Thor ecu is not just like the regular motronic system.
I wouldn't go putting alot of power through that drivetrain. Like I said an LS1 would destroy the t/c and axle diffs. The axles them selves even become a liability after 32 inch tires.
Rovers aren't made for power, they are made for smooth torque. They are made for true off-roading not mud bogging. No need for big block power. If your not planning on trail riding at all. Then I would seriously consider a different truck. I bought my D2 for my ex-wife because she loved the way it looked. I kept it after the divorce and since I have a DD it became another toy when I learned how capable they are off road, so now I plan on making it a mild trail ride.
I already did springs, I will be adding shock, longer brake lines, and I already have a D1 shifter. With the traction control and center diff locks. This is as close as you will come to a fully locked differential without opening them up and actually changing the units.
Also, if you did remove the ABS/TC unless you have a 04 D2 or get a shifter linkage from a D1 you will have no 4-wheel drive capability at all. The D2's except for the 04's don't have center diff locks, and relied SOLELY on the traction control for their 4-wheeling capabilities. The 2000 and 2001 ones have the internal parts in the transfer case to make it work you just need the shift linkage, but the 02 and 03 don't even have the internals.
If you do buy one you need to check the roto joints. The prop shafts is a sealed unit that can't be maintained and it gets dripped on from the AC condenser making it wear out, and when it goes they have a nasty habit of smacking a hole in the transmission case.
This is my Rover
09-18-2012, 08:39 AM
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Nice truck. Yes there are a lot of smarter (boring) 4x4 buys out there but what fun is that? I need to move this before doing anything. LS1 in a BMW 2002 anyone?
http://s1183.photobucket.com/albums/...BMW2002056.jpg
My plan is to build a family camping truck, not a rock crawler. I presently have a '82 Toyota PU straight axle 4x4 for the dirty work.
http://s1183.photobucket.com/albums/...BMW2002056.jpg
My plan is to build a family camping truck, not a rock crawler. I presently have a '82 Toyota PU straight axle 4x4 for the dirty work.
09-18-2012, 12:10 PM
#12
Well best of luck to you whatever you decide. Just know that owning a Rover is not for everyone. Be prepared for some high cost components if something goes bad that you can't replace used.
You better love turning your own wrench because, not just any shop should work on one. Dealerships suck, find a good indy tech if you won't be working on it yourself, but be prepared to pay for it. Good Indy Rover technicians are rare and stay packed because most shops tend to screw them up when they touch them, trust me I've seen it. I saw a P38 Range Rover burn to the ground on the trails because some moron mechanic left a heat sheild off the bottom and the chassis harness caught on fire.
I'm sure you have heard of Disco Mike, we are lucky to have someone like him who supports the community, he can come off a tad arogant if you haven't ever worked with him on something. But he really will always help you.
Also, Will Tillery and PTS Schram are great assets as well. Will will get you the best prices he can and trust me 90% of the time they are (much)better than anyone else around. Call him and get a price on some STI wires and then call a few other places. Your jaw will drop, and he will have them to you by 2 days.
BP Utah is a good place. D&D Fabrication and RPI Engineering do cams and lifters and head gasket kits, things of that nature.
Lucky8LLC is the place to get the lower temp thermostat which is a must also as well as anything you need off-road related. Justin is a cool guy too. Go on youtube and check out "Rover gear and a beer"
Happy Wheeling,
Scott *cheers*
Edit: something else I forgot to tell you, If you ever plan on riding trails or even when you go camping. Getting some diff covers is another absolute must! The stock housings are paper thin. Climb under one and tap it with a screwdriver and you will hear just how thin they are. Nothing sucks worst then getting stranded on a trial holding everyone up behind you while you get winched off the trail because you busted a differential open.
Also all Rovers have a sagging headliner, there is nothing you can do about it. So don't let that stop you from getting an otherwise good Land Rover because you think
you might come across another one that doesn't have this issue.
You better love turning your own wrench because, not just any shop should work on one. Dealerships suck, find a good indy tech if you won't be working on it yourself, but be prepared to pay for it. Good Indy Rover technicians are rare and stay packed because most shops tend to screw them up when they touch them, trust me I've seen it. I saw a P38 Range Rover burn to the ground on the trails because some moron mechanic left a heat sheild off the bottom and the chassis harness caught on fire.
I'm sure you have heard of Disco Mike, we are lucky to have someone like him who supports the community, he can come off a tad arogant if you haven't ever worked with him on something. But he really will always help you.
Also, Will Tillery and PTS Schram are great assets as well. Will will get you the best prices he can and trust me 90% of the time they are (much)better than anyone else around. Call him and get a price on some STI wires and then call a few other places. Your jaw will drop, and he will have them to you by 2 days.
BP Utah is a good place. D&D Fabrication and RPI Engineering do cams and lifters and head gasket kits, things of that nature.
Lucky8LLC is the place to get the lower temp thermostat which is a must also as well as anything you need off-road related. Justin is a cool guy too. Go on youtube and check out "Rover gear and a beer"
Happy Wheeling,
Scott *cheers*
Edit: something else I forgot to tell you, If you ever plan on riding trails or even when you go camping. Getting some diff covers is another absolute must! The stock housings are paper thin. Climb under one and tap it with a screwdriver and you will hear just how thin they are. Nothing sucks worst then getting stranded on a trial holding everyone up behind you while you get winched off the trail because you busted a differential open.
Also all Rovers have a sagging headliner, there is nothing you can do about it. So don't let that stop you from getting an otherwise good Land Rover because you think
you might come across another one that doesn't have this issue.
Last edited by My6speedZ; 09-18-2012 at 03:43 PM.
