Automotive News, Media & Press - 10 Cars That Sank Detroit

http://finance.yahoo.com/news/10-Cars-That-Sank-usnews-13583746.html

10 Cars That Sank Detroit

The global financial crisis is suffocating the Detroit automakers, but the problems at General Motors, Ford, and Chrysler have been festering for years--even when the mighty "Big Three" were earning billions. Aging factories, inflexible unions, arrogant executives and shoddy quality have all damaged Detroit. Now, with panicky consumers fleeing showrooms, catastrophe looms: Without a dubious federal bailout, all three automakers face the prospect of bankruptcy.

There will be plenty of business-school case studies analyzing all the automakers' wrong turns. But, as they say in the industry, it all comes down to product. So here are 10 cars that help explain the demise of Detroit:

Ford Pinto. This ill-fated subcompact came to epitomize the arrogance of Big Auto. Ford hurried the Pinto to market in the early 1970s to battle cheap imports like the Volkswagen Beetle that were selling for less than $2,000. Initial sales were strong, but quality problems emerged. Then came the infamous safety problems with exploding fuel tanks, which Ford refused to acknowledge. Message: The customer comes last. "The problems for the domestics really started in the '70s when they were offering cars like the Pinto up against higher-tech, better-built Toyota Corollas and Honda Civics," says Jack Nerad of Kelley Blue Book.

Chevrolet Cavalier. GM sold millions of Cavaliers in the 1980s--and decided the thrifty car was so successful the company didn't need to update it for more than a decade. To milk the model, GM even added some lipstick and high heels and tried to peddle the upgrade as the Cadillac Cimarron--a legendary flop. Honda and Toyota, meanwhile, were updating their competing models every four or five years, and grabbing market share with each quality improvement. A new Cavalier came out in the mid 1990s--then languished for another decade, while GM put most of its money into big trucks and SUVs. GM has since improved its small cars. "But they have to be miles better than the imports for Americans to forget how bad their small cars used to be," says Jamie Page Deaton of U.S.News's Rankings and Reviews car-ranking site. Even if they are better, many Americans wonder why they should give Detroit a second--or third--chance.

Chevrolet Astro. While Chrysler, Toyota, and Honda were refining their minivans in the 1990s and coming up with innovations like hideaway seats and electric sliding doors, GM was offering an old, truck-based van gussied up with carpeting and cupholders. "It showed GM's repeated failure to market competitive products based on styling and packaging," says Tom Libby of J.D. Power & Associates. The Astro drove like a bread truck, and consumers noticed. It also earned the worst safety ratings in its class. Before long, GM was effectively out of the minivan segment. No biggie--those were just mainstream American families the automaker decided to ignore.

Ford Taurus. Try to explain this logic: After its 1986 debut, the Taurus became a perennial bestseller. So for the next 20 years, Ford let quality decline and neglected the family sedan, while pouring love and money into trucks and SUVs. By early this decade, the Taurus had become a dowdy, rental-lot staple. So Ford simply retired the Taurus in 2006 and replaced it with the 500 sedan--which went on to set records as one of the most short-lived models ever. A year later, Ford revived the Taurus name and applied it to a bastardized 500. But by then, the damage was done.

Ford Explorer. This breakout vehicle helped launch SUVs and drove record profits at Ford in the 1990s, as Americans flocked to big utilities that could take them off-road if they ever got adventurous. It also blinded Ford to the future. "Executives could not see beyond the green piling up at their feet," says David Magee, author of How Toyota Became No. 1. "The Explorer helped create an addiction that lasted 15 years." GM and Chrysler followed right behind, with SUVs like the Chevy Trailblazer and the Dodge Durango--lockstep moves that reveal how the Detroit automakers focused on each other rather than the broader marketplace.

Jaguar X-Type. Ford bought the British luxury brand Jaguar in 1990, when all three Detroit automakers were seeking ways to expand their global reach. Eventually, Ford decided to build an entry-level Jaguar starting at around $30,000 for people looking to move up from, say, a Mercury Marquis. The down-market move "represented everything that Jaguar is not," says Libby of J.D. Power. The X-Type was built on an ordinary sedan platform from elsewhere in Ford's lineup, and the front-wheel-drive system underwhelmed enthusiasts used to rear-drive European makes. Jag purists were horrified, and aspiring luxury buyers shunned the X-Type in favor of BMWs, Lexuses, and Acuras. After fumbling the luxury brand for nearly two decades, Ford sold Jaguar to an Indian conglomerate in 2008.

Hummer H2. It sure seemed cool back in 2003, when gas was less than $2 per gallon. And it sure seems gaudy now. This supersized SUV clearly had a heyday, but it also helped paint parent company GM as an enviro-hostile corporation that sold only gas guzzlers. Sales collapsed as gas prices rose toward $4 a gallon in mid-2008, and GM has been trying to sell the division for six months--with no takers, so far. "GM wanted to make Hummer a signature company brand," says Magee. "Instead, it showed the company was out of touch with the needs of the 21st century."

Toyota Prius. While GM was spending $1 billion to build up the Hummer franchise, Toyota was spending $1 billion to develop a high-mileage hybrid--even though gas prices were still low. After the Prius debuted in the United States in 2000, GM execs seized yet another opportunity to display their intimate knowledge of American consumers, arguing that hybrids didn't make economic sense and that only environmentalists would buy them. Today, Toyota can barely keep up with demand for the Prius, and it has plans to start building them in the United States. GM, meanwhile, is scrambling to rush hybrids and other high-mileage cars into dealerships--far too late.

Chrysler Sebring. Did Chrysler engineers set out to build the world's most boring car? Of course not. Yet Chrysler still produces this blandmobile to keep assembly lines running and maintain a presence, however weak, in the sedan market. In the new Darwinian auto industry, this model seems destined for extinction, since the only way to sell marginal cars is with steep discounts, which money-losing automakers can no longer afford. In fact, if Chrysler ends up being carved into pieces and sold to competitors, as many analysts expect, most of its passenger-car lineup could get the axe, since there's little to distinguish it. Besides--what's a sebring, anyway?

Jeep Compass. Quick, what's the difference between the Jeep Compass, the Jeep Liberty, and the Jeep Patriot? The bosses at Chrysler, which owns Jeep, could explain, but the real answer is that Chrysler has oversaturated its strongest brand lineup in a desperate attempt to boost sales. "The Compass is not needed," says James Bell of Intellichoice.com. "Just the Liberty, please." The Compass has the same mechanical underpinnings as the Dodge Caliber, which helps illustrate one of Detroit's favorite tricks: Create multiple versions of every product under a bunch of different brand names, hoping that if buyers shun one, they'll take a more favorable view of another. Message to Detroit: Consumers aren't that stupid. Give them a bit more credit, and you might have a future.

IMO, it is the tards that put out articles like this that helped to sink them. They could have updated the cavalier every few years, than we would be hearing them bitch about how nothing is the same between the different years or the transformation is to absurd.

Friends dad had a Chevy Astro and the thing was a beast. In the 250k miles he had it he never had any problems with it. The way the magazines and sheeple at the Toyota and Honda dealerships though will tell you it was on the virge of exploding, and they know a friend of a friend who has an uncle that has a brother in law that has a Toyota that has gone 500k miles with never getting an oil change or ever having any problems.

I remember trashing the Ford Taurus once at a transmission shops after hearing about them always having tranny issues, but with it having the tittle for a while of the #1 most selling car virtually everyone will have owned one and at one point some tard would have gotten ahold of it and neglected any sort of routine maintenece at all. My Grandfather had one running fine to 200k miles before he was rearended and the car was totalled.

Toyota Prius... a car that in my eyes they tried to make super advanced and because it is badged Hybrid it is a super cool car. Wasn't some study done that the battery in the car actually produces more damage to the enviroment than a H2 would by 100k miles? Than on top of that aren't the batteries some crazy freakin amount to replace? The other funny thing about them is they don't even get the mileage they claim they get. My grandmother got 42mpg at her best on the thing over in seattle, when the thing actually ran of course. While you might look at that and think neat... how about the fact that my dad in his little Chevy Metro with the three banger gets 55mpg in that thing and he drives the piss out of it. Looks to me like Toyota is the one that needs to play catch up... IMO this will be one of those cars that in 10 years everyone will look back at it and wonder wtf they were thinking.

Toyota/Honda are living off a reputation from 20 years ago, and the bad part is it is being covered up by the "american" automotive media. A good example is the recall for the Toyota Matrix/Pontiac Vibe about the windows blowing out because of force applied or something from the electric motor. Toyota had 200,000+ to be recalled and Pontiac had 55,000 to be recalled... which made front page news though... This is a Toyota engineered product to boot. :confused:

The one looming issue is that the Big 3 suck with advertising. They have good stuff out there but no one knows about it unless you read about it. I can tell you right now that Toyota has some sort of 0% financing going on, because I have this stupid song stuck in my head that just says "Saved by 0... Saved by 0" with Toyota cars flashing by.

Anyways, thats the end of my long rant... :soapbox:

my parents had a pinto when i was a kid. the car was very reliable. my aunt bought it from them after. that car lasted a long time.


while i admit gm did milk out a cavalier without upgrading it i thought it did what it was supposed to for its cost.


i remember a taurus being a number one seller for yrs though i do agree once again it wasnt upgraded like it shouldve been. explorers also made ford a shitload of money. even with that suspension or tire problem.

Wow!!! What great hindsight! If only I had bought Google, If only we had dropped a couple more bombs on Japan. Etc..Blah,Blah,Blah.

atleast there is no mention of an F-body by these "experts" so thats a relief I do agree with the list though there have been some missteps along the way

I make an honorable mention for the Aztec

astro vans are tough as shit i dont know why this pinhead dissed them so much as i see 10 of them per day on the road still holding their own.

astro vans are tough as shit i dont know why this pinhead dissed them so much as i see 10 of them per day on the road still holding their own.VERY true, and they're actually quite popular in some Asian markets as well I hear. :nod:

IMO, it is the tards that put out articles like this that helped to sink them. They could have updated the cavalier every few years, than we would be hearing them bitch about how nothing is the same between the different years or the transformation is to absurd.

Your first paragraph makes me laugh, How can you blame anyone but the company in itself for letting the business fail? you can put out as much misinformation as you want but a strong foundation and a good ethical business model will take your business as far as you let it.

Bottom line is that the big three have over saturated the market with unmarketable cars (throwing darts at a dartboard and hoping for a winner) as well as unethical union business practices in which no merritt is involved in the production of the vehicles. there is no motivation to work as everything that the "blue coler" worker has to do is show up and he gets paid a better salary then I do plus better benefits. (I am the VP of a 30+ year old sub contracting business in upstate NY i am the 3rd generation) so that my friend is the reason why Detroit is failing IMO

astro vans are tough as shit i dont know why this pinhead dissed them so much as i see 10 of them per day on the road still holding their own.


you don't see any astrovans in upstate ny... i would guess it is due to the harsh winters and salt

you don't see any astrovans in upstate ny... i would guess it is due to the harsh winters and salt

Give me a brake, my parents live there and I grew up there, tell me how many 95 and below Toyotas and Hondas you see. That is what I thought. Rust ownzzz them.
Leave now troll.

Astrovans as still in high demand here in Ontario by trades people because they take a shit kicking and being a full frame handle lots of weight. I disagree with the article on many fronts. Our family owned a sunbird, and 2 cavaliers over the years including the last generation. All great little cars. Only maintenance was oil changes, brakes and tires. There are many reasons the big 3 are not doing well but trying to pin the failure on 10 car is joke.
IMO the biggest reason they are not doing well is the media has been jumping on the import band wagon for so long no one believes the domestics make a good product anymore.

Leave now troll.
+1, Every post this _______has is anti GM.

I'm on the Astro van band wagon also. My Mom drove her Astro van for over 200,000 miles with NO ISSUES EVER! To this day she still says, "I wish they still had the Astro Van"

That's the first car I learned to drive, lol.

Give me a brake, my parents live there and I grew up there, tell me how many 95 and below Toyotas and Hondas you see. That is what I thought. Rust ownzzz them.
Leave now troll.

What makes me a troll? and yes i do see alot of toyota's and honda's up here! especially pre 1995. Look i am stating my opinion, just because YOU do not like it does not make me a Troll...

i am still here posting... i am not looking to stir the pot but this is just my thoughts on the issue at hand.

Just because your parents live in Upstate NY and you yourself Grew up here (assuming you don't live here now) does not hold water on what I see day in and day out and what "you saw when you grew up seeing x number of years ago"

+1, Every post this _______has is anti GM.

I am a HUGE corvette and LS1 advocate, i think the LS1 platform is leaps and bounds ahead of any competitor... and if my memory serves me correct...this is LS1tech.com not I<3GMtech.com so what does it matter if i am anti GM?

What makes me a troll? and yes i do see alot of toyota's and honda's up here! especially pre 1995. Look i am stating my opinion, just because YOU do not like it does not make me a Troll...

i am still here posting... i am not looking to stir the pot but this is just my thoughts on the issue at hand.

Just because your parents live in Upstate NY and you yourself Grew up here (assuming you don't live here now) does not hold water on what I see day in and day out and what "you saw when you grew up seeing x number of years ago"

I just spent three weeks in Catskill and I can tell you there are next to no pre 95 imports running around.
if they rusted out while I lived there I sure as hell know they still are not runnin around now.

Interesting article. I do think the Big Three did it to themselves. Nevertheless it is American industry at stake and we must do something to ensure it survives.

W

I just spent three weeks in Catskill and I can tell you there are next to no pre 95 imports running around.
if they rusted out while I lived there I sure as hell know they still are not runnin around now.


LOL regardless... how many pre 1995 vehicles are there on the road? i would figure less then 25% of the cars and with the production line stopping in 1997 for the ford astrovan i am not surprised that i do not see a whole lot on the road...

Interesting article. I do think the Big Three did it to themselves. Nevertheless it is American industry at stake and we must do something to ensure it survives.

W

I disagree, why must we do something to ensure that they survive? they are doomed to fail! let them fail! Toyota, Honda and other big "import" producers are giving jobs to thousands of Americans IN AMERICA... not if but WHEN the big 3 fail, someone will show up in their place and offer us a better and more sustainable product. that is the best part about our economy, it promotes technological growth and advancments.

Is America going to fall because the big 3 auto makers die? NO!!!! they are not the main source of our economical success...(or downturn for that matter)

The Cavalier was the best value/cheapest car you could buy in 2002. It made GM a lot of money.


This author is stupid...

Prius made Toyota a lot of money.

The H2 made GM a lot of money.

This guy is retarded.

This guy is retarded.

Who is that directed at?:confused:

People that write dumbass articles like this are the same people that blame GM for building the big SUV's. GM did what people wanted, Toyota and Nissan were behind in that time, now they are ahead because of the market shift.

I am a HUGE corvette and LS1 advocate, i think the LS1 platform is leaps and bounds ahead of any competitor.
I'll refrain from calling you a Toolbag, some things need not be said.
1. WTF is a LS1 platform?
2. Out of curiousity, what do you drive?

Ford Astrovan i am not surprised that i do not see a whole lot on the road...
You should be suprised, I have never seen a Ford Astrovan in my life

I disagree, why must we do something to ensure that they survive? they are doomed to fail! let them fail! Toyota, Honda and other big "import" producers are giving jobs to thousands of Americans IN AMERICA...)
So is the Big 3, Who would you rather support?



Oh ya, because we all know how a lack of competition would bring that to fruition.



[QUOTE=Is America going to fall because the big 3 auto makers die? NO!!!! they are not the main source of our economical success...(or downturn for that matter)

You obviously, have no foresight into the mass ramifications that would have on the U.S economy.

You sir, are a import loving weenie. As far as imports being better, why don't you come out of the import closet, and I'll take you to my old work truck, it's 97 Chevrolet C2500 with over 370K miles on it.
Import quality is a farce!

as far as pre 95's... my little 93 saturn runs great, gets 40+ mpg, and has more miles than most imports will ever see. I drive it 70 miles a day round trip to work. Put cheap oil in it, replaced the air filter, original clutch THIS YEAR, and the paint doesnt look too bad. I would rather have it than a 93 civic any day! Too bad saturn is basically a clone car now.....

I'll refrain from calling you a Toolbag, some things need not be said.
1. WTF is a LS1 platform?
2. Out of curiousity, what do you drive?


You should be suprised, I have never seen a Ford Astrovan in my life


So is the Big 3, Who would you rather support?



Oh ya, because we all know how a lack of competition would bring that to fruition.





You obviously, have no foresight into the mass ramifications that would have on the U.S economy.

You sir, are a import loving weenie. As far as imports being better, why don't you come out of the import closet, and I'll take you to my old work truck, it's 97 Chevrolet C2500 with over 370K miles on it.
Import quality is a farce!

I appologize, CHEVY ASTROVAN (got mixed up with the ford arostar!) second the LSX platform is what was intended being their shortblock, again i appolgize for being incorrect on my labeling,

Yes i drive a subaru but that has nothing to do with me being an import loving weenie or anything other. My work fleet consists of three ford f250's one f350 superduty duallie and a 25' chevy flatbed with a cat motor. I also have 3 F450's in the yard from the 80's. My very first vehicle was a dodge ram 1500 which i adored!

I am not going to sit here and say the import truck or vehicle is better then the american, what is being disputed is the business model (or lack there of) for the big three auto makers.

You can sit here and call me a toolbag and an import loving weenie all that you wish because frankly i could care less and the fact that this is getting under your skin is amusing to me. You can pick apart my post as much as you like but bottom line is that the big three automakers are self distructive and irresponsible businesses.

what mass ramifications will there be when they fail? unemployment rate will raise? what happened when Kodak and Xerox went bankrupt? Rochester NY alone lost 60K jobs... did the world end? NOPE we now have better technology and new companies have come in to filled the void.

and you ask who would i rather support? i will support a company with a promising business model and a strong work ethic. Look at companies such as Honda and Toyota, they are producing vehicles for the USA in the USA offering us a product as well as jobs, why wouldn't you want to support that? you are losing the big 3 but we have already gained two new auto manufacturers right here in the USA.

and I'll take you to my old work truck, it's 97 Chevrolet C2500 with over 370K miles on it.
Import quality is a farce!

Congrats! i am not saying that the american vehicles are of poor quality! infact my shop truck 04 f250 has 215K miles on it and that is with 50% under full load. some TLC and PM can take your vehicle to astounding lengths. and i am glad that your vehicle has sustained as many miles as it has and is still a reliable vehicle.

i think it is hearsay to make a statement of "import quality is farce!" so you are telling me that the BMW's and Merc's, Porche's, and Ferarri's build quality are all farce? or just Honda, Toyota, Hyundia, Kia...

that was a rather bold statement my friend

and i apologize if i am rubbing people the wrong way, that is not my intentions by any means! i will not personally slander anyone or their beliefs, i am simply stating my opinion and how i feel about this whole situation!

I love my GM toys but I agree with the OP...NO FREAKING WAY do I support a bail out of the Big Three. Let the declare bankruptcy and re-think the way they do business.

http://www.ls1tech.com/forums/racers-lounge/1020806-not-smart-move-big-3-execs-fly-into-dc-private-jets.html

And this is what i mean by a failing business model...

but bottom line is that the big three automakers are self distructive and irresponsible businesses.


Here is a major reason why the Big 3 are struggling
http://www.detnews.com/apps/pbcs.dll/article?AID=/20060926/LIFESTYLE03/609260338/1040

what mass ramifications will there be when they fail? unemployment rate will raise?

Gee lets ponder this for moment. 400-500K directly employed by the Big 3.
Their suppliers companies and employees. The thousands of dealerships and their employees, The numerous small businesses that are supported by those factories, dealerships, suppliers. The numerous small businesses that are supported by those employees with their paychecks. The aftermarket business would shrink in time. and more. Also last but not least for me and many others National pride. Obviously that holds no meaning to you and the likes. But to us it does.


i think it is hearsay to make a statement of "import quality is farce!" so you are telling me that the BMW's and Merc's, Porche's, and Ferarri's build quality are all farce? or just Honda, Toyota, Hyundia, Kia...

that was a rather bold statement my friend

"My friend" I sold new hondas, VW's, Audis', and Mercedes so I am very familar with their so called build quality. Not enough space or time to type all the problems with those " perceived superior quality automobiles"
I've owned bmw's an Audi A4, GTI VR6, Passat 1.8t, honda civic si hatch(fun car, gay car, but fun) Oh and a subaru legacy
Both bimmers were junk, the Audi while nice was not worth the $5000,differential at 64k miles, the GTI got bought back by Volkswagen after 14-16k miles, the Passat was nice, no qualms there. The civic I was just too embarassed to drive more then a month, and the subaru nickel and dimed me too death.

What hurt the American auto industry is forum trolls and idiot kids who latched onto the ricer culture . :D

What hurt the American auto industry is forum trolls and idiot kids who latched onto the ricer culture . :D

So i am assuming that i am the "forum Troll" you are referring to?

National pride you say? yes lets have national pride in our big three auto manufacturer's that have not been able produce a profitable consumer product? Yes lets take pride in our failing economical businesses! WOOO HOOO! HURRAY...lets give them a green ribbon for trying!

I don't know where to begin with your break down of your vehicles, the same can be said about most american made cars, I am not going to delve into that one but bottom line is that you can find faults in any and every car! I do not feel that the Imports are inferior to any american made car!

Lets touch on Unemployment... Unemployment is not a bad thing for our economy believe it or not. I do not know your education and i am not going to begin to question it as i am sure you are an intellegent person but the bottom line is that unemployment at a certain percentage is a GOOD thing. (now i feel bad for those who lose their jobs but this is america and nobody ever said that life was fair...{except unions HAHA})

in October of this year we lost a totaled 651,000 This caused our national unemployment rate to raise from 6.1% to 6.5% that is a .4% swing. So the loss of another 500K jobs would equate to another .4% swing. that puts us still under 7% unemployment within the USA. that is not an outstanding number!

Yes like i said, i feel bad for the people who will be losing their jobs but such is life. I do not feel bad for Ford, Chevy/GM or Dodge/Chrysler! they are getting exactly what they deserved! I hope they can right the ship but lets be honest, it is not going to happen. I do not take pride in a business that dominated for 70 years and has dwindled their profit and company resources to the point of bankruptcy! what pride is their to take in that?!?!

and idiot kids who latched onto the ricer culture . :D

thank you F&F... :eyes: we all could have done with out that shock culture movement... :bang:

:lock::lock::lock::lock::lock::lock::lock:

i want my 10 minuites back :eyes:

I won't get into the Import vs. Domestic battle that is ensuing, but I would like to add my .02.


I would just like to comment on the above comments regarding the pending failure and business model of big 3. I think the acceptance of a "bailout" would be affected by your economic views. Free market economies - which have been proven to promote efficiency, quality, and lower prices - would reject the notion of a government funding a private company to prevent it's failure. The idea of a government sponsored bailout is consistent with a socialist society. I happen to agree with a free market economy, where it truly is survival of the fittest. I do not even agree completely with the bailout of the banking system, even though that is highly hypocritical (I work for a major bank that has been the recipient of the benefits of a bailout package).


Secondly, I would like to point out that if the big 3 are not bailed out they will file for chapter 11 bankruptcy. This is bankruptcy centered around re-organizing a corporate entity. This should not be confused with chapter 7, which is a liquidation bankruptcy. Chapter 11 is the same thing that the airline industry used, and more recently Lehman Bros. and Washington Mutual.


Whether you want to argue that domestics are better cars than imports. Great! Maybe you're right. The indisputable fact is that the domestic companies are not able to build cars that consumers want, for the price consumers are willing to pay, and still turn a profit. I think the GOVT should let the big 3 fail so that they can be re-tooled for the current economy, and focus on where they need to be going. Not how things used to be.


For what it's worth I have owned 4 cars in my life, 3 of them domestics, and 1 Dodge Stealth (Not sure if that qualifies as a domestic, since they used a Mitsubishi motor). I recently sold my 00 Camaro to someone on this very board, and it was my favorite car. I look forward to purchasing another one in the near future.

All I can say is that I grew up in my dad's 90' dodge power ram 1500. I still remember the first time I heard him start it the sound of a v-8:angel: compaired to my moms dodge stratus (i believe 4 cyl not sure tho). The sound of a V-8 is worth more to me then the mpg. If you want mpg buy a bike! I will support american builders long before I will a import. And with gas below $2.00 a gallon in alot of places hell with the imports. But the big 3 do need to catch up...

All I can say is that I grew up in my dad's 90' dodge power ram 1500. I still remember the first time I heard him start it the sound of a v-8:angel: compaired to my moms dodge stratus (i believe 4 cyl not sure tho). The sound of a V-8 is worth more to me then the mpg. If you want mpg buy a bike! I will support american builders long before I will a import. And with gas below $2.00 a gallon in alot of places hell with the imports. But the big 3 do need to catch up...

Does that mean you will buy a vehicle from Toyota and Honda as they are both American Made cars?!

I won't get into the Import vs. Domestic battle that is ensuing, but I would like to add my .02.


I would just like to comment on the above comments regarding the pending failure and business model of big 3. I think the acceptance of a "bailout" would be affected by your economic views. Free market economies - which have been proven to promote efficiency, quality, and lower prices - would reject the notion of a government funding a private company to prevent it's failure. The idea of a government sponsored bailout is consistent with a socialist society. I happen to agree with a free market economy, where it truly is survival of the fittest. I do not even agree completely with the bailout of the banking system, even though that is highly hypocritical (I work for a major bank that has been the recipient of the benefits of a bailout package).


Secondly, I would like to point out that if the big 3 are not bailed out they will file for chapter 11 bankruptcy. This is bankruptcy centered around re-organizing a corporate entity. This should not be confused with chapter 7, which is a liquidation bankruptcy. Chapter 11 is the same thing that the airline industry used, and more recently Lehman Bros. and Washington Mutual.


Whether you want to argue that domestics are better cars than imports. Great! Maybe you're right. The indisputable fact is that the domestic companies are not able to build cars that consumers want, for the price consumers are willing to pay, and still turn a profit. I think the GOVT should let the big 3 fail so that they can be re-tooled for the current economy, and focus on where they need to be going. Not how things used to be.


For what it's worth I have owned 4 cars in my life, 3 of them domestics, and 1 Dodge Stealth (Not sure if that qualifies as a domestic, since they used a Mitsubishi motor). I recently sold my 00 Camaro to someone on this very board, and it was my favorite car. I look forward to purchasing another one in the near future.

Finally someone with some sense to their logic!

Does that mean you will buy a vehicle from Toyota and Honda as they are both American Made cars?!


You are :supergay:

You are :supergay:

and how do you figure that one? because i proposed a question that you either A) do not want to answer or B) dislike the notion of those manufactures being considered American?

I fail to see how my sexual preference is even a relevant part of this conversation? unless it has to do with the reason why the big three auto manufacturers are failing and if that is the case, please proceed... you have my attention!

In the 150-acre terminal where Toyotas are unloaded, there is a sea of Corollas, Camrys and RAV4s. The mere presence of so many cars is not unusual, given that Toyota brings in 250,000 cars a year in biweekly shipments. But in a sign that something is amiss, dozens of tractor-trailers that transport new cars to dealers sat empty last week amid the rows of Toyotas.

http://www.nytimes.com/2008/11/19/business/economy/19ports.html?_r=2&pagewanted=1&oref=slogin

American made my um ok, that is just one port. They make some here, but not most.
Give me some time, I am taking adoption classes tonight, to get a child out of foster care. I will find the Honda numbers, but you guys who say they make tons here aren't going to like it.

American made my um ok, that is just one port. They make some here, but not most.
Give me some time, I am taking adoption classes tonight, to get a child out of foster care. I will find the Honda numbers, but you guys who say they make tons here aren't going to like it.


I don't disagree that lots of these are imported. While at it though, might be worth while to check how many of the big 3's vehicles are produced outside of the borders.

Simply would be interested to know.

In the 150-acre terminal where Toyotas are unloaded, there is a sea of Corollas, Camrys and RAV4s. The mere presence of so many cars is not unusual, given that Toyota brings in 250,000 cars a year in biweekly shipments. But in a sign that something is amiss, dozens of tractor-trailers that transport new cars to dealers sat empty last week amid the rows of Toyotas.

http://www.nytimes.com/2008/11/19/business/economy/19ports.html?_r=2&pagewanted=1&oref=slogin

American made my um ok, that is just one port. They make some here, but not most.
Give me some time, I am taking adoption classes tonight, to get a child out of foster care. I will find the Honda numbers, but you guys who say they make tons here aren't going to like it.

Best of luck on the adoption! that is a great thing that you are doing.

And yes i do realize that not all of the vehicles are produced in the USA, but i was unaware of the numbers (didn't do my homework) so with that said i do understand that the majority is still made outside of the US borders.

buy imports,,so send your hard earn money to japan:bang:let get rid of trolls like started this thread

buy imports,,so send your hard earn money to japan:bang:let get rid of trolls like started this thread

you know what? i will send my hard earned money over to japan... what difference does it make? majority of our big business outsources labor anyways! so until the value of the dollar drops to the point where it becomes fiscally responsible to stop exporting labor i see no difference in purchasing an "American made car" that is produced in Mexico compared to a Japanese car produced in Japan.

The marketing of the vehicles is also wrong, the research analysts really are not in tune with the cars specific target profile. For the Camaro and Challenger R/T what is the guy thinking about who really wants one? He(or she) wants the car because it's supposed to be a musclecar, not a real comfortable daily commuter. Holding true to the heritage of these cars means selling a car that most guys couldn't care less for loading it with options. They think that the only way to make money is on the options "packages". Well you ain't making money on the options if the car sits on the lot because it costs too much, then you have to offer discounts and rebates to get rid of it. These two cars should be available the way many of us believe it needs to be sold. For those with the deep pockets who like all that stupid stuff that ends up having problems, yes make a car fully loaded and sell that SRT8 for 50k. Most of want the car for the love of it being what it's supposed to be, a raw unadultered MUSCLECAR. It will most likely be a seasonal vehicle(toy) that we only drive once in a while. Put the V8, 6spd, posi drivetrain in it. I don't need the Active handling system, ABS, Low tire sensors, etc. etc. The only things I need are AC...ok maybe cruise control. Some of us for all intensive purposes do not even care for a big warranty because we're probably going to want to start adding our own things that would void it anyways. Remember when the HEMI roadrunners and such never came with a warranty? That 20 or 30 some year old looks at the sticker on the car and can't justify or afford $34k plus for a toy but make a stripper and kick it out the door for $24K he might do whatever it takes to get it. These cars are toys so market them as such, not as a sporty car that everyone will hopefully buy just because they can make it a really comfortable car you "could use everyday".

What ever happened to GM's electric car? The EV-1, i think it was called.

I know there was a documentary on it, i've just never seen it....

The marketing of the vehicles is also wrong, the research analysts really are not in tune with the cars specific target profile. For the Camaro and Challenger R/T what is the guy thinking about who really wants one? He(or she) wants the car because it's supposed to be a musclecar, not a real comfortable daily commuter. Holding true to the heritage of these cars means selling a car that most guys couldn't care less for loading it with options. They think that the only way to make money is on the options "packages". Well you ain't making money on the options if the car sits on the lot because it costs too much, then you have to offer discounts and rebates to get rid of it. These two cars should be available the way many of us believe it needs to be sold. For those with the deep pockets who like all that stupid stuff that ends up having problems, yes make a car fully loaded and sell that SRT8 for 50k. Most of want the car for the love of it being what it's supposed to be, a raw unadultered MUSCLECAR. It will most likely be a seasonal vehicle(toy) that we only drive once in a while. Put the V8, 6spd, posi drivetrain in it. I don't need the Active handling system, ABS, Low tire sensors, etc. etc. The only things I need are AC...ok maybe cruise control. Some of us for all intensive purposes do not even care for a big warranty because we're probably going to want to start adding our own things that would void it anyways. Remember when the HEMI roadrunners and such never came with a warranty? That 20 or 30 some year old looks at the sticker on the car and can't justify or afford $34k plus for a toy but make a stripper and kick it out the door for $24K he might do whatever it takes to get it. These cars are toys so market them as such, not as a sporty car that everyone will hopefully buy just because they can make it a really comfortable car you "could use everyday".


I agree completely...

To be honest, each manufacturer has some very solid marketable cars that are competitive and promising money makers but the oversaturation really crowds the marketability of their true "diamonds in the rough"

Does that mean you will buy a vehicle from Toyota and Honda as they are both American Made cars?!Hmm, on a related note, will those out there who are HELL BENT and entirely fixated on buying ONLY import brand named vehicles consider a Chevrolet Aveo or even a Pontiac G8 because they're not produced on American soil?:huh:

I guess those selectively convenient biases and loyalities swing both ways huh? ;)

There are those that believe that buying a Toyota or Honda does no harm to our domestic auto industry (and there are also PLENTY, like myself, that believe it does) but the jury is still out on that one.
What I do know is though that the guy buying a Saturn Sky, Michigan built Silverado/Sierra or a Mustang certainly IS NOT doing any harm to the domestic auto industry so we at least know that his conscience is clear. :usa:

In the 150-acre terminal where Toyotas are unloaded, there is a sea of Corollas, Camrys and RAV4s. The mere presence of so many cars is not unusual, given that Toyota brings in 250,000 cars a year in biweekly shipments. But in a sign that something is amiss, dozens of tractor-trailers that transport new cars to dealers sat empty last week amid the rows of Toyotas.

http://www.nytimes.com/2008/11/19/business/economy/19ports.html?_r=2&pagewanted=1&oref=slogin

American made my um ok, that is just one port. They make some here, but not most.
Give me some time, I am taking adoption classes tonight, to get a child out of foster care. I will find the Honda numbers, but you guys who say they make tons here aren't going to like it.:werd: I hear ya on this one.

Give me some time, I am taking adoption classes tonight, to get a child out of foster care.

:hail: I wish someone had done that for me. Instead I got stuck with the douchebags that were in it for the money. Just be ready to give it all you've got.

Hmm, on a related note, will those out there who are HELL BENT and entirely fixated on buying ONLY import brand named vehicles consider a Chevrolet Aveo or even a Pontiac G8 because they're not produced on American soil?:huh:

I hope this is not directed towards me because i have no bias either way on which vehicle i purchase. i hope i have proven that with the fleet i use for my company (ALL AMERICAN). my personal vehicle is not american.

I guess those selectively convenient biases and loyalities swing both ways huh? ;)

what selectively convenient biases? i am not loyal to any car manufacturer?

There are those that believe that buying a Toyota or Honda does no harm to our domestic auto industry (and there are also PLENTY, like myself, that believe it does) but the jury is still out on that one.
What I do know is though that the guy buying a Saturn Sky, Michigan built Silverado/Sierra or a Mustang certainly IS NOT doing any harm to the domestic auto industry so we at least know that his conscience is clear. :usa:

i am not disputing the fact that purchasing a vehicle other then from the big three will most definitely HURT the domestic auto industry (that is not being disputed) what i am saying is that they need to fail, we need their poor business practices to go by the way side and make way for the new up and comings. whether it still be labled as a "ford/chevy/dodge" it does not matter, but the business model that is in place now must be changed. The only conceivable way for it to change is for them fail...not be given an extra life line...to waste our time and money with... So don't give me the anti American bullshit as i am just as much an American as anyone else. I have over $250K in American machinery in my yard as well as supply my city with over 100 jobs. So tell me again why my conscience should be tainted because i purchase a vehicle other then an American one and i preach good business practices?

i am not disputing the fact that purchasing a vehicle other then from the big three will most definitely HURT the domestic auto industry (that is not being disputed) what i am saying is that they need to fail, we need their poor business practices to go by the way side and make way for the new up and comings. whether it still be labled as a "ford/chevy/dodge" it does not matter, but the business model that is in place now must be changed. The only conceivable way for it to change is for them fail...not be given an extra life line...to waste our time and money with.

Agreed. Re-arranging a business is sometimes a necessary evil that most people hate. In the short term people will lose jobs. But it is necessary for those companies to once again become self-sustaining and to succeed. If the GOVT bails them out and they are allowed to continue down the same path, they will run into these same problems not too far down the road. It's better to lose some jobs now and allow the company to re-build a solid foundation to provide more jobs down the road, rather than try to keep those jobs now and end up killing the whole company.

Someone ban this kid. He is a store full of tools. :ban::ban::ban::ban::ban::ban::ban::judge:

Someone ban this kid. He is a store full of tools. :ban::ban::ban::ban::ban::ban::ban::judge:


LOL ban me? under what criteria? for having an opinion other then yours! :D haha this forum is great!


P.S. I love how i am being portrayed as a "kid"

Also i would like to know how many people are reading this thread who are sitting back and thinking to themselves, "I agree with TheRival" and not posting. I hope it is a lot because the blatant ignorance on this forum is frankly quite astounding.

^^^Rival: I think they just made you the scapegoat here. You make very good points and are obviously well educated. You have done no bashing, even though everyone seems to want to take cheap shots at you for stating your point of view. Isn't that the point of threads such as these? To get varying opinions and debate them accordingly?

It's almost made out to be your fault entirely that the Big 3 sucks at general business practices. Personally, I love GM's products, but they have not made the best business decisions over the years. I've only bought two cars in my life so far, a '93 saturn SC2 and my 2001 Z28. Never had any complaints between the both of them. To each his own however. I know plenty of people who will NEVER own a American made car, but I also know plenty of people (including myself) who will only be interested in an American car. Maybe I'm naive or ignorant, but I love my Chevy's! :)

Also i would like to know how many people are reading this thread who are sitting back and thinking to themselves, "I agree with TheRival" and not posting. I hope it is a lot because the blatant ignorance on this forum is frankly quite astounding.

Everyone has valid points in this thread. Nothing to see here.

:secret2:

^^^Rival: I think they just made you the scapegoat here. You make very good points and are obviously well educated. You have done no bashing, even though everyone seems to want to take cheap shots at you for stating your point of view. Isn't that the point of threads such as these? To get varying opinions and debate them accordingly?

It's almost made out to be your fault entirely that the Big 3 sucks at general business practices. Personally, I love GM's products, but they have not made the best business decisions over the years. I've only bought two cars in my life so far, a '93 saturn SC2 and my 2001 Z28. Never had any complaints between the both of them. To each his own however. I know plenty of people who will NEVER own a American made car, but I also know plenty of people (including myself) who will only be interested in an American car. Maybe I'm naive or ignorant, but I love my Chevy's! :)

My fiance owned a 1998 cavalier until last year when it finally died with 120K. it was great little car. I am also a HUGE fan of the corvette as well as the Camaro. I only wish that GM would produce a truck capable of towing upwards of 17,000lbs so i could get rid of my F350 Super Duty Duallie as it is not my favorite vehicle i have ever owned.

and yes it is true that i am the cause of the big three failures!!! :) debating can be enjoyable when both parties are civil such as yourself! i respect your opinions and like to learn as much as possible!

Everyone has valid points in this thread.I agree.

I would disagree with a bailout.

I would support a 10 tariff of 10k US Dollars on cars not made in the US. If a car is made in the US whether it be a Bimmer, Toyota, etc, it does not get a tariff.

The catch to my tariff would be that each yr one thousand comes off of the tariff. Giving the US auto industry time to catch up and recoup their losses without our tax dollars.

But, if a company makes its cars here with US jobs...then they should not pay a tariff.

W

I would disagree with a bailout.

I would support a 10 tariff of 10k US Dollars on cars not made in the US. If a car is made in the US whether it be a Bimmer, Toyota, etc, it does not get a tariff.

The catch to my tariff would be that each yr one thousand comes off of the tariff. Giving the US auto industry time to catch up and recoup their losses without our tax dollars.

But, if a company makes its cars here with US jobs...then they should not pay a tariff.

W

I agree with this notion! what a great idea! i am not sure how you would begin to breach this topic with the us government but i would love to see something of this nature brought to the table!

the only problem i can foresee with this tariff is that the amount of monies to be placed on each vehicle would have to be in proportion to its market value. You cannot charge 10K on a car worth 15K just the same as you would charge 10K on a car worth 80K. it would have to be some proportion.

I would disagree with a bailout.

I would support a 10 tariff of 10k US Dollars on cars not made in the US. If a car is made in the US whether it be a Bimmer, Toyota, etc, it does not get a tariff.

The catch to my tariff would be that each yr one thousand comes off of the tariff. Giving the US auto industry time to catch up and recoup their losses without our tax dollars.

But, if a company makes its cars here with US jobs...then they should not pay a tariff.

W

That's an interesting idea. I do think that all of the large auto manufacturers are truly global companies. The only thing identifying an import or domestic is where it's corporate headquarters reside. Would that mean that cars made by GM in Canada would also be charged a $10K tariff? Simple economics applied to tariffs show that tariffs increase prices, which reduces demand. There would be some consumers switching over to domestics. However, with the economy in it's current shape, I believe that more consumers would simply not purchase new cars. Decreased demand would just make the situation worse. Consumer spending is what pulls a country (in this case the world) out of a recession. This spending is usually started by GOVT spending (building highways for example) which adds jobs and allows consumers to spend.

Plus, if we add a tariff on imports, other countries will do the same. If everyone starts tryign to protect their own companies, the consumers will be the only ones who suffer.

The tarrif is a really bad idea and doesn't address one of the key issues, domestic labor rates.

First off tarrifs have nasty consequences. Early in his term Bush decided to put a tarrif on the Chinese steel industry to prevent the Chinese from dumping cheap steel on America and of course to protect the American industry. The Europeans were worried that if America was off limits, China would instead dump their cheap steel in Europe and hurt the European steel industry. So Europe placed a tarrif on American produce, because we ship Europe a lot of produce and they knew it would hurt a lot of American businesses if there was a tarrif on it. So of course America complains about the European tarrif and the Europeans tell us "Get rid of the steel tarrif and we'll dump the produce tarrif."

Basically America's econ is global and too exposed to counter tarrifs for us to be able to slap people around with tarrifs, because we'll get slapped back just as hard or harder.

Secondly one of the key issues is that the average non-Union American factory worker for the Asian 3 costs somewhere around 45 dollars an hour. The average UAW worker costs 75 dollars an hour. So lets say there was a tarrif on all imported cars and car parts. This actually doesn't help GM. As it stands right now GM buys a lot of foreign car parts (Aisin clutches, German radios, etc, etc). So now its parts cost more (but so do everyone elses) so all prices would rise, and we the consumer pay more.

Lets say the tarrif was so high that we went back to Henry Ford's method of build everything in one American factory. No foreign suppliers, etc. So now Toyota pays 45 dollars an hour from start to finish to build a car. GM pays 75 dollars an hour from start to finish. Guess who still has the price advantage?

The UAW either needs to get off its ass and unionize those American works that work for the Asian 3 and bring their wage in line with the Big 3's ages or else the UAW needs to come down and price match non-union labor prices.

GM also has a number of supply chain weaknesses that need to be dealt with too. I'm not saying that line worker costs are GM's only problem, just that tarrifs don't solve them.

let the record show that i retract my statement on tariffs... LOL

^^^^^
:nod::nod::nod::nod::nod::nod::nod::nod::nod::nod:

Damn... Rival got in there before my post got in!

Let the record show I was pointing at CherryGXP's post!

^^^The records have been updated and all accounts corrected for.

^^^The records have been updated and all accounts corrected for.

alright this thread is just about done... i am going to troll...i mean hang around some other threads now :) i hope i don't get hated on as much but if i do...meh such is life right?

That's an interesting idea. I do think that all of the large auto manufacturers are truly global companies. The only thing identifying an import or domestic is where it's corporate headquarters reside.

On the Contrary, its how many Americans that they employ that matters to our economy and our well being. GM employs as many Americans as all of the import manufacturers combined and if you flow this down to the supplier level the big three can be shown to support American jobs into the millions vs a few hundred thousand American jobs for the Imports.

GM and Ford go under we will go into a depression. Toyota goes down, we'll be a prosperious nation.

The Japanese and more specifically the Germans and Koreans already heavily subsidize their Automotive industry and we freak when Our government steps in to do the same for Ours.

yahoo is a bunch of hippie bullhit anyways. if ts not eco friendly then its the worst thing ever.
i do blame the big 3 for not keeping up with the times but a few years ago SUVs trucks and other low mpg cars were selling like hotcakes
but nowadays if ur car doesnt shit frabreeze then ur some iroc driving redneck who doesnt care about the future

The key to keep US jobs at home is...

Tariffs...US workers cannot compete with Chinese workers making 50 cents a day
Tort controls...workers are too capable of suing their bosses
Unions must be placed under control...they agitate for too high of wages to make products here
Not shifting to socialized medicine...taxes would be too high in our country for business to prosper

W

Cars didnt killed the automotive industry......Executives with big fucking egos did...I say fuck them, go bankrupt and learn the basics of how to properly run a business.

The original poster referenced the Big Three with no mention to any issues Foreign manufacturers had.

How easy one forgets GM is still the US's best selling line of vehicles.
The two best selling VEHICLES in AMERICA are built by Ford and GM
The poster referenced vehicles made in the 70 by the big three.
Even mentioned the VW bug - built by the Germans around WW11.

Lets talk about Toyota
EVERY early truck rusted - Their first two Mini Vans were mid engine and junk. Do you remember the name of their second mini-van?
Didn't they buy back many of their newest full size trucks because of engine problems?
3.0 engine have serious sludge issues.
Recently didn't they have more recalls than GM?

Lets talk about Honda
Again rust issues
Their first SUV was a rebadged IZUZI - Want to guess who ownes about 50% of that company? Not Honda
Their trucks today don't have frames. Can't tow equally to American built trucks.
Their first mini van had swinging doors and was seriously underpowered.
They also have tranny issues.
Poeple who buy Hondas, Toyotas, and Nissans generally follow the service guidelines.

Lets talk about Nissan
Also a company with rust issues
Nissans were called Datsuns until 1986.
Most recently, 2004 when I worked there, EVERY Nissan vehicle had one or more recalls on them.
Bad brakes in Z's full size trucks and SUV's

No one company stands alone as building the best cars and trucks. They all have service problems. Every service department is larger than the sales floor for all brands.

American Auto Mfgs have been strapped with UAW labor contracts. Forced to pay people for not working etc. etc. Forced to settle strikes in order to continue production.

Who in the hell are the folks in Washington calling these folks on the carpet? They have managed to put this country into debt to the tune of over 10 TRILLION dollars.

It's great to see all this SXXX hitting the fan at one time. It's great to watch an exit pole of soon to be President OBAMA voters. Watch it, Utube how Obama got elected.

Anyone can twist anything around to find fault with something. The solution I guess is to set on your hands. Why in the hell does this country allow it's elected officials to be off work starting in November until after January with the issues this country has?

:secret2: Jakes Dad

p.s. utube how obama got elected :chug:

p.s11 He'll be my President soon too just not yet!

the only problem i can foresee with this tariff is that the amount of monies to be placed on each vehicle would have to be in proportion to its market value. You cannot charge 10K on a car worth 15K just the same as you would charge 10K on a car worth 80K. it would have to be some proportion.You can't? :confused:
Japan (among others) does JUST THAT.
Perhaps a little taste of their own medicine might force them to FINALLY open up their markets to our vehicles.

You can't? :confused:
Japan (among others) does JUST THAT.
Perhaps a little taste of their own medicine might force them to FINALLY open up their markets to our vehicles.

Japanese people have a superiority complex. Many of them would not be willing to touch American cars. We've all got those few family members and friends that somehow have the idea that American cars all suck and Japanese cars all don't. Step that up an order or two of magnitude in Japan.

You can't? :confused:
Japan (among others) does JUST THAT.
Perhaps a little taste of their own medicine might force them to FINALLY open up their markets to our vehicles.

If you noticed after the fact that i retracted my notions of the tariff idea so i am not going to begin to debate your statements.

I don't agree with the Hummer and Explorer ruining GM and Ford. Gas was cheap and these(and others like them) were the vehicles that the public wanted..... They made a crap load of $$$$$$$$$$$$$ off of them.... only bad news was.... when the gas went up..... they were poorly position for a shift to smaller more fuel efficient cars.

The REAL problem with SUvs, Trucks is their poor efficiency.... If they were to find a way to make trucks, suvs more fuel efficient, I doubt the buying public would want smaller cars instead. They bougt the suvs and trucks for a reason and they certainly did not buy them for the bad MPG.

Gas is now cheap again.... and except for the fear(and probability) that high gas prices will return Truck and Suv sales would no doubt return.

Given the high gas prices, the BIG 3's poor position for a return to smaller more fuel efficient market, and the credit crunch= The Perfect Storm.

I was surprised the blunder from down under didnt make the list(GTO) as much as I like the car it was an enormous sales failure. Also how about the saturn EV-1, GM had a fully functional, reliable, and relatively quick electric car years before the term "hybrid" had even been thought up in automotive terms. Great cars, they buried all in the Arizona desert...

Given the high gas prices, the BIG 3's poor potion for a return to smaller more fuel efficient market, and the credit crunch= The Perfect Storm.

Many people bring up the future of the "big 3" and "large Trucks/SUVs" in the same breath, without mentioning that the big 3s full size vehicles have been making strides in fuel mileage while the Foreign companies have been making more than their fair share of larger less fuel efficient trucks and SUV's..ie Titan,Tundra, FJ, 4runner etc.

There seems to be a trend in the media not to acknowledge that the big Japanese companies have been creating more large less fuel efficient vehicles than ever before!

Many people bring up the future of the "big 3" and "large Trucks/SUVs" in the same breath, without mentioning that the big 3s full size vehicles have been making strides in fuel mileage while the Foreign companies have been making more than their fair share of larger less fuel efficient trucks and SUV's..ie Titan,Tundra, FJ, 4runner etc.

There seems to be a trend in the media not to acknowledge that the big Japanese companies have been creating more large less fuel efficient vehicles than ever before!Very true. That is always so conveniently left out of the discussions about the emphasis on trucks/truck sales during the last few years. It was NOT just GM, Ford and Dodge/Jeep that were marketing/attempting to profit from large truck sales. Toyota (Lexus), Honda (Acura), Nissan (Infiniti), Mercedes and BMW ALL contributed and enjoyed the fruits of those sales as well.

And in most cases, a truck was (still is) actually necessary/needed to get a particular job (construction, plumbing, electrician, hauling, police use, carpooling etc.) done, not all truck sales were simply moms with one or no kids at all just driving around in these tanks when a more fuel efficent sedan would've sufficed instead.

i skimmed through the first page of this.

you guys are naive and WAYYYY too pro-gm, fuck everything else. that article is 100% correct. between the saturation of the name brands, the unions, and all the other bullshit, GM and other domestic automakers are in the shitter, and the dumbass execs looking for billions in bailouts, flying to the meetings in their private luxo jets, only to drain the money in a month or two are retarded.

the only way to fix it is to totally restructure the companies. fuck all the contracts, fuck all the 23091 brands of the same vehicle, and almost start over so-to-speak

UGHUIJGNAOKSDG

The article is way too kind too Detroit...

Ford Pinto Article was too kind to Ford on this one. Ford was the first and I think still the only American auto company indicted for murder. Ford knew it's faulty design with the Pinto would kill people and didn't car because settling the lawsuits would be cheaper than fixing the problems. Much of the screwed up liabilty laws that hamper US businesses resulted from this case.

Chevrolet Cavalier. GM had it's not broke so lets not fix it point of view. As long as they were making money of it why bother to improve the product...GM failed to realize that the younger 2nd and 3rd owners of a car ARE your future customer base.

Chevrolet Astro GM got ran out of the market because they were making the product they wanted to make...not the product the customer wanted.

Ford Taurus Was an instant success & Ford should have made the most of it. Some of the early cars were bad news with the 3.8 v6. My mom had an 89 Sable same as a Taurus. 104,000 miles - two head gaskets and a transmission.

Explorer GM could have been feeling out the market with cars like the G8 say 5 to 10 years ago but instead they decided to follow. There was a market for V8 cars back then. The V8 LT1 Impala SS was LOVED so of course GM killed it.

Jaguar X-Type Domestics cash in on a name and create junk? No that would never happen.

Hummer H2 GM and herd mentality. It's easier to follow than to lead...but that also means it's too late too change course when the herd charges over a cliff and your following...

Toyota Prius GM had an electric car years before this thing was on the market...it was killed because would have required some R&D for the future and that would have cost $. Good thing GM made the right decision, plan for the moment, not the future because the future never arrives...

Chrysler Sebring Took one for a test drive. YAWN. Wife liked but then she doesn't like cars.

Jeep Compass Chrysler learn this failed trick from GM?

you guys are naive and WAYYYY too pro-gm
fuck all the 23091 brands of the same vehicleOnce again, when Toyota rebadges their cars/trucks as a Lexus, Honda rebadges theirs as Acura and Nissan rebadges theirs as Infinitis then it's ok :eyes: ....but when GM or Ford do it they're ridiculed and panned.

Maybe some other people are also naive and WAY too pro 'Japanese auto industry' that it blinds them to seeing that EVERYONE utilizes platform sharing.
Bias goes both ways ya know.

i see what you are saying, but there is difference........

Acura is an "UPPER LEVEL" Honduh
Lexus is an "UPPER LEVEL" Toyota
Infinity is an "UPPER LEVEL" Nissan

and there is a market for all of them...

****on the other hand****

Envoy = TrailBlazer = Bravada
Tahoe = Yukon
Denali = Escalade <--- (not quite as stong a case)
Jeep = Jeep = Jeep lol
Dodge minivan = Chrysler minivan etc etc
Cobalt = G5
For every GMC there is a chevy counterpart, and maybe buick as well
Ford a Mercury
etc
etc
etc

i mean, i could make a full page list of these.

and the most important thing that distinguishes this from what the azn's are doing is

there are not (for the most part) different markets for these vehicles. they are essentially the same market. they are not ADDING new consumers, they are SPLITTING EXISTING consumers across the brands. benefit? not much. production costs > marginal benefit

economics 101

Once again, when Toyota rebadges their cars/trucks as a Lexus, Honda rebadges theirs as Acura and Nissan rebadges theirs as Infinitis then it's ok :eyes: ....but when GM or Ford do it they're ridiculed and panned.

Maybe some other people are also naive and WAY too pro 'Japanese auto industry' that it blinds them to seeing that EVERYONE utilizes platform sharing.
Bias goes both ways ya know.

The problem is the timeline. Most people who are anti-domestic are stuck in the 90's. Back then Domestic cars were junk compared to Japanese cars. The mentality of the masses is stuck in the last decade. They refuse to accept that things have changed now.

The truth is that ten years ago, GM DID do way too much sharing. Japan was sharing platforms, yes, but GM was sharing bodies. Look at the 2000 Malibu/Grand AM/Alero/Catera. That was as stupid as it gets. Those cars shared drivetrains, suspensions, glass, 90% of sheetmetal and even seats and dashboards in some instances. That's going too far. These days GM has made the changeover to platform sharing, and that's what everyone is doing. GM at this point is actually doing less platform sharing than Japan. Example - the new Malibu and G6. Same platform...can you tell? No way. They share drivetrains and suspensions...the list ends there.

The truth is, despite what all these self claimed experts say, that GM is on the right track now. Problem is that they need time, and that's what they don't have. They have great cars, both on lots and in the pipelines, but unless the government steps in, those vehicles will never see the light of day and therefore can't do anything to help the company.

Sure, some shakeup of management couldn't hurt, and maybe ditching GMC and Buick (in the US) would be the right thing to do. That would leave GM with a core brand (Chevy), a performance brand (Pontiac) and a luxury brand (Cadillac). I honestly don't know what to say about Saturn. I'm 50/50 on that one. I don't think they'd miss it.

i see what you are saying, but there is difference........

Acura is an "UPPER LEVEL" Honduh
Lexus is an "UPPER LEVEL" Toyota
Infinity is an "UPPER LEVEL" Nissan

and there is a market for all of them...

Compare a loaded Camry to an IS...a loaded Accord to a TL, and a loaded Altima to a G35. You'll be a bit surprised to find that they really are doing the same thing that the US has been doing...just with better marketing.

****on the other hand****

Envoy = TrailBlazer = Bravada
Tahoe = Yukon
Denali = Escalade <--- (not quite as stong a case)
Jeep = Jeep = Jeep lol
Dodge minivan = Chrysler minivan etc etc
Cobalt = G5
For every GMC there is a chevy counterpart, and maybe buick as well
Ford a Mercury
etc
etc
etc

i mean, i could make a full page list of these.

and the most important thing that distinguishes this from what the azn's are doing is

there are not (for the most part) different markets for these vehicles. they are essentially the same market. they are not ADDING new consumers, they are SPLITTING EXISTING consumers across the brands. benefit? not much. production costs > marginal benefit

economics 101

The Envoy and Bravada are upscale versions of the trailblazer...just like the Infiniti FX35/45 are upscale versions of the Murano...in fact, you will find more of a separation in the Envoy vs. the Trailblazer than you will in the FX35/45 vs. the Murano.

Same with Yukon vs. Tahoe and FX56 vs. Armada.

You have illustrated well the difference between domestics and imports in this area. Though it's not the difference you intended to illustrate. You've seen the commercials from all these manufacturers and you, like the general public, believe that when you pay $5000 more for an FX56 over an Armada, you are getting alot more with it. After all, the fancy ad on the TV said so. However, having never seen any commercials for the Yukon or Tahoe, you don't realize how much more you get in a Yukon for the extra money you pay.

I'm not trying to make you sound stupid...it's not your fault, it's GM/Ford/Chryslers fault for not putting enough emphasis on marketing.

im going by experience. and like you, im not debating all of what you are saying. there are pros and cons to each of our statements.

i own a denali..... have had a base yukon in the past and have been in the tahoe and suburban equivalents. where one is lacking (among the equivalent models) , the other has some nice immenedies, and vice versa. the one thing the denali/escalade offers that the chevy doesn't (to my knowledge) are the 6.0L, and now 6.2L packages whereas chevy only offered the 5.3L (again, to my knowledge)

the yukon vs tahoe is a weak example supporting my claim imo..... and beyond that i'm not really going to expand on my argument. i dont know as much as i would like to to argue my point, other than the opinion i stated. im trying to block out the shambles of an economy and domestic auto market we have to pretend we have pretty rainbows outside. in other words im not paying too close attention to it yet. and hell, if the execs running these companies can't figure this RIDICULOUS issue out, i certainly wont pretend to have the end all be all answer.

all in all, there are rights and wrongs to ALL of our statements. but i certainly will go back to my original statement and agree with the OP

The article is way too kind too Detroit...

Ford Pinto Article was too kind to Ford on this one. Ford was the first and I think still the only American auto company indicted for murder. Ford knew it's faulty design with the Pinto would kill people and didn't car because settling the lawsuits would be cheaper than fixing the problems. Much of the screwed up liabilty laws that hamper US businesses resulted from this case.




The pinto related rear impact issue is one that is well known to all.

But few are aware of the 100% buyback (Recall ID # 94V031000 ) on Nissan minivans from the late 80's because the Japanese manufacturers and their media supporters keep it quiet. All 33,000 87 minivans were to be bought back if the owner accepted the offer due to the risk of fire.

And this issue did not involve another vehicle hitting it to set the van on fire. It would happen on its own. And few have heard of it!

The pinto related rear impact issue is one that is well known to all.

But few are aware of the 100% buyback (Recall ID # 94V031000 ) on Nissan minivans from the late 80's because the Japanese manufacturers and their media supporters keep it quiet. All 33,000 87 minivans were to be bought back if the owner accepted the offer due to the risk of fire.

And this issue did not involve another vehicle hitting it to set the van on fire. It would happen on its own. And few have heard of it!True!
The vast media hush hush thing when it comes to recalls/quality issues among Toyota/Honda/Nissan vehicles is quite common actually.
Advertising dollars and radio/television media ownership (Columbia/Sony etc.) can go a long way. :nono:

We can look back on the past and see the hybrids from toyota and honda were the better way to go. While you can argue hybrids may only give 10-20% better economy, it was a good selling item for them. GM could have sold hybrids but missed the boat.

I drove a new Saturn Aura.... This car drives nicer then a toyota camry..... so I guess theirs some hope for GM?

Pontiac aztec, nuff said

Pontiac aztec, nuff said
http://www.avto-otchet.net/CarReviews/2788_0.jpg
http://www.classiccarsofsc.com/images/85ToyotaVan.jpg
http://image.trucktrend.com/f/crossovers/all-new-2008-scion-xb/6243878+w700+cr1+re0+ar1/2008-scion-xb-side-view.jpg
http://www.autocarparts.com/images/products/Honda/honda_element.jpg
They are so much better.
If Toyota or Honda had been selling the Aztec it would have been "Cutting edge" "A useful reliable Vehicle"
Slap GM on it and all of a sudden it is crap.

I am not defending the Aztec.

I drove a new Saturn Aura.... This car drives nicer then a toyota camry..... so I guess theirs some hope for GM?:nod:

http://www.avto-otchet.net/CarReviews/2788_0.jpg
http://www.classiccarsofsc.com/images/85ToyotaVan.jpg
http://image.trucktrend.com/f/crossovers/all-new-2008-scion-xb/6243878+w700+cr1+re0+ar1/2008-scion-xb-side-view.jpg
http://www.autocarparts.com/images/products/Honda/honda_element.jpg
They are so much better.
If Toyota or Honda had been selling the Aztec it would have been "Cutting edge" "A useful reliable Vehicle"
Slap GM on it and all of a sudden it is crap.Exactly. :werd:x 10

Lets talk badge engineering for a second. I know GM has too many brands but lets just say GM is by far not the only one guilty.
]http://www.horizonluxurycars.com/used_cars_images/2004_Lexus_ES_330.jpg
http://www.horizonluxurycars.com/used_cars_images/2004_Toyota_Avalon.jpg

http://www.theautochannel.com/media/photos/infinity/1997/97_infiniti_qx4_4wd_4dr.jpg
http://www.usedcars.com/Imageserver/Chrome/1997/7212.jpg

http://www.automedia.com/NewCarBuyersGuide/photos/2006/Nissan/Armada/SUV/2006_Nissan_Armada_ext_1.jpg
http://www.automedia.com/NewCarBuyersGuide2008/photos/2008/Infiniti/QX56/SUV/2008_Infiniti_QX56_ext_1.jpg

http://www.automedia.com/NewCarBuyersGuide2007/photos/2007/Lexus/GX%20470/SUV/2007_Lexus_GX470_ext_1.jpg
http://www.caradvice.com.au/wp-content/uploads/2006/11/2007ToyotaPradoTurboDiesel.jpg

http://images.securedwebform.com/reviews/images/00landcruiser.jpg
http://images.securedwebform.com/reviews/images/00lexuslx470.jpg

I don't here anyone bitching about these guys.
Everything is perception, in the eye of the beholder.
Not to say the import guys make bad cars, but I choose not to behold imports.

GENERAL MOTORS:
Buick:
Enclave
Lacrosse
Lucerne

Cadillac:
CTS
DTS
Escalade - Tahoe - Yukon - H2
SRX
STS
XLR - Corvette

Chevrolet:
Avalance
Aveo - G3
Camaro
Cobalt - G5
Colorado - Canyon - H3T
Corvette - XLR
Equinox - Torrent
HHR
Impala
Malibu
Silverado - Sierra
Suburban
Tahoe - H2 - Yukon - Escalade
Trailblazer - Envoy - 9-7X
Traverse

GMC:
Acadia
Canyon - Colorado - H3T
Envoy - Trailblazer - 9-7X
Sierra - Silverado
Yukon - Tahoe - H2 - Escalade

Hummer:
H2
H3
H3T - Colorado - Canyon

Pontiac:
G3 - Aveo
G5 - Cobalt
G6
G8
Solstice - Sky
Torrent - Equinox
Vibe - Toyota Matrix

Saab:
9-5
9-7X - Trailblazer - Envoy

Saturn:
Astra
Aura
Outlook
Sky
Vue

TOYOTA:
Lexus:
ES - Camry
GS
GX - 4Runner
IS
LS
LX - Land Cruiser
RX
SC

Scion:
tC
xB
xD

Toyota:
4Runner - GX
Avalon - Venza
Camry - ES
Corolla
FJ Cruiser
Highlander
Land Cruiser - LX
Matrix - Pontiac Vibe
Prius
RAV4
Sequoia
Sienna
Tacoma
Tundra
Venza - Avalon
Yaris

Anyone with a brain stem can see there's more product and more segment overlap on the GM side. GM, if it continues to exist, needs to drastically scale down the number of models and use the resources they have left in making the models they have left better.

http://www.avto-otchet.net/CarReviews/2788_0.jpg
http://www.classiccarsofsc.com/images/85ToyotaVan.jpg
http://image.trucktrend.com/f/crossovers/all-new-2008-scion-xb/6243878+w700+cr1+re0+ar1/2008-scion-xb-side-view.jpg
http://www.autocarparts.com/images/products/Honda/honda_element.jpg
They are so much better.
If Toyota or Honda had been selling the Aztec it would have been "Cutting edge" "A useful reliable Vehicle"
Slap GM on it and all of a sudden it is crap.

I am not defending the Aztec.



Lol well played sir, well played.

There def have been *mistakes* from everyone in the industry, I just wanted to pointout a GM train wreck.