Racer's Lounge - Do we have any "Big 3" auto Employees?

With all the talk about the "Big 3" possibly going under, i just wondered if we had any employees from these industries on this site? What is thier opinion on the current situation?

You dont have to be a CEO, a salesman at a GM dealership would work.

judging by our email database, we have hundreds here. Those are just the GM employees, there are also thousands of supplier companies that rely on the big three.

The ones I speak to all say about the same thing. These companies going bankrupt will cause huge financial and consumer confidence disasters for the USA. They also agree that the auto unions are much to blame, and have bleeding these companies dry for decades. They really need to tell the UAW to get lost, and go back to paying people what they are worth. Unskilled labor should not be getting overpaid skilled worker wages.

At this point, everyone just wonders if they will have a job tomorrow. Sucky situation to be in, especially near the holidays.

I used to be a supplier for the big 3 about 4 years ago...lets just say i am extremely happy i am out of that field...worked at my job since i graduated HS(almost 5 years)...was making excellent money as a Supervisor on 3rd shift...Name of the compnay was GKN Sinter Metals...our factory made parts for the allison transmissions. I was called into the office one day and laid off....I was scared shitless at first...but looking back now it was one of the best things that happened to me becasue i am in a much more secure field now

They also agree that the auto unions are much to blame, and have bleeding these companies dry for decades. They really need to tell the UAW to get lost, and go back to paying people what they are worth. Unskilled labor should not be getting overpaid skilled worker wages.

:bang: I agree 100%. The guy installing lug nuts makes $100K, while teachers in the area probably make $35-40K.

:bang: I agree 100%. The guy installing lug nuts makes $100K, while teachers in the area probably make $35-40K.

If that...

Major changes need to occur, and they will. It's just a matter of how things are going to happen...and/or crumble.

I would like to hear from a UAW member. Got a few questions for one of them. I know they're here and reading.

most UAW members will be very defensive about their careers, based on my experience with them. The guy installing lugnuts at $30-38/hr will always want to justify his pay, and think this is normal.

I've been saying this for years. The UAW is as bad as organized crime. No one deserves $35 and hour to do something so simple. I had one guy actually try to defend his ridiculous wage. He was a body man for ford. He hung fenders. He was telling me how "hard" his job was, as in physically strenuous. I asked him how long it took him to learn to do it. He said just a few weeks to be good at it. I asked him why he thinks he deserves to make as much money as someone who spent 6 years in college when any jackass with 2 hands can do his job in a matter of days. Idiot.

My dad has worked for a GM dealer my entire life, about 12 years ago he moved onto a Chevy dealer and is part owner. It's a real hit below the belt when a fellow American yells let them go under, we don't need them. They can say that because the American made car company didn't put food on their table for the last 26 years of their life.

Aussie land and Canada have both said they will help GM with a few billion each, American on the other hand......

I hate the UAW and blame them for the majority of what's going on, there are the good and the bad with going Chapter 11.

The dealership recently ordered a lot of new cars, now our bank doesn't know if they can loan the money, after they are ordered and most are sitting on the lot. Whats a local Chevy/Buick dealership supposed to do with a few million in inventory if their bank of 50 years won't help?

My dad always said don't go into the automotive industry, it's something you enjoy don't ruin it by working in it. Sadly i'm glad I didn't go that route :(

GM got themselves into this mess... GM can get themselves out of it

it really does suck especially when you rely on the auto industry. my old man started out of high school and has worked his way up, been in the biz 22 years. all he knows is parts and the service drive. hope this shit gets figured out it seems like it gets worst by the day

My dad has worked for a GM dealer my entire life, about 12 years ago he moved onto a Chevy dealer and is part owner. It's a real hit below the belt when a fellow American yells let them go under, we don't need them. They can say that because the American made car company didn't put food on their table for the last 26 years of their life.

We can say that because it's our freaking money they are trying to take at the moment.

If everyone on ls1tech bought stock at $1.73 it was at earlier I'm sure we could raise its value a little and make some easy money :D

The reason that stock is so low is because of the bankruptcy fears. If GM goes bankrupt while you own stock, that stock goes ~POOF~! and becomes zero.

Who gives a shit if its our money that its going towards. If the auto industry goes under it will be the loss of more than just big 3 jobs. Steel mills around here have no steel orders because of the auto industry hurting. Companies that produce plastics will hurt, also companies that even make the vinyl stickers and what not will also be affected. The more people that lose their jobs are that many more people that cannot put spend money to help fix the economy. It doesnt just stop at the big 3, everyone will begin to suffer.

Who gives a shit if its our money that its going towards. If the auto industry goes under it will be the loss of more than just big 3 jobs. Steel mills around here have no steel orders because of the auto industry hurting. Companies that produce plastics will hurt, also companies that even make the vinyl stickers and what not will also be affected. The more people that lose their jobs are that many more people that cannot put spend money to help fix the economy. It doesnt just stop at the big 3, everyone will begin to suffer.

And throwing government money at the problem will just magically fix it right? :rolleyes:

And throwing government money at the problem will just magically fix it right? :rolleyes:

for at least a quarter it will :P until GM management and the UAW blow that money too and then beg for more

for at least a quarter it will :P until GM management and the UAW blow that money too and then beg for more

Well, yeah, good point. It will just buy them time.

We can say that because it's our freaking money they are trying to take at the moment.

Thanks man. It's somehow ok for us to spend billions in a country overseas that hates everything we do but wrong to help out a company that supports 20% of your economy. The billions we spend overseas will never be seen, the big 3 want a LOAN, not a grant, gift or donation.

I thought the person installing the cigarette lighter made $70 an hour? Either way, it amazes me how these workers get paid so much damn money. I used to complain about executives that make too much money and then outsource to foreign countries. This is just as bad. Eventually foreign countries will be making everything and the US will be begging for their help.

So screw the union, fire all of them. I've been out of work since June, hire me to screw on lug nuts at $10/hr instead of $30+. Kinda makes me sick to hear these people make that much, when I installed satellite systems in 100+ FL heat I was only making $10.50/hr, and that job required at least some thought.

Yeah the other country stuff too, when the hell is the government going to start worrying about the U.S.? I wish they would stop sticking their noses in other countries business, its really un-needed. Iraq was about as big of a threat as house cat.

Who gives a shit if its our money that its going towards. If the auto industry goes under it will be the loss of more than just big 3 jobs. Steel mills around here have no steel orders because of the auto industry hurting. Companies that produce plastics will hurt, also companies that even make the vinyl stickers and what not will also be affected. The more people that lose their jobs are that many more people that cannot put spend money to help fix the economy. It doesnt just stop at the big 3, everyone will begin to suffer.

Not if they declare bankruptcy. There are two options here, neither of which would cause the end of the world. They declare bankruptcy, or they take our money.

I'm a GM Tech. I'm not worried. If GM goes under their cars will still need fixin'. That'll never change.

yeah being a mechanic is the only good automotive job right now, people still need their shit fixed...

I thought they were going to use part of the money from the big bailout, or are they gonna take out another loan to do it?

I dont mind my money going to the cause as long as the Big3 change their ways a little to prevent it from happening again.

Everything in the economy is connected and something like this could be very bad.

they should get the money, since it is a LOAN. However change there ways, and get rid of UAW. People need jobs bad right now. I will work for gm for a good price, i dont need 30/hour to do a simpleton job. eithier way if the big 3 fail, this economy is going to get way way worse. as for them showing up in private jets... thats total b/s if you need money you better damn well make it atleast beliveable. that was a big fuck up on there part.

I thought they were going to use part of the money from the big bailout, or are they gonna take out another loan to do it?

I dont mind my money going to the cause as long as the Big3 change their ways a little to prevent it from happening again.

Everything in the economy is connected and something like this could be very bad.

I think one of the issues which I either read here or on CNN is that if the government loans them the money, it still isn't going to solve their problems. It will mostly just delay them from going out of business. If they file for chapter 11, they can continue to stay in business but dump a lot of their bad loans and some wonderful union works that make to much f'ing money. Personally I don't care what option is used, but workers that are overpaid because of a union need to go. I honestly don't give a shit about their story and how many children they are raising. How many Americans live off of their paycheck and make A LOT less than these guys. What is the median salary right now in the US? Isn't it like $61k for the entire household? And these individual workers are making more than the average American to work on an assembly line? Give me a break.

Thanks man. It's somehow ok for us to spend billions in a country overseas that hates everything we do but wrong to help out a company that supports 20% of your economy. The billions we spend overseas will never be seen, the big 3 want a LOAN, not a grant, gift or donation.

totally different ... this is about a private sector company petitioning the government for money because they f***ed up. Just like it was wrong of the feds to get involved in the bank bailouts and crap ...

the Big3 f***ed up big time and are getting what they deserve ... between poor upper management and greedy unskilled labor .... giving or even loaning them money is NOT going to fix them , they're beyond that... they need a whole new restructuring and to get rid of the UAW, and only way to do that is to file for bankruptcy so they can end those contracts

they should get the money, since it is a LOAN. However change there ways, and get rid of UAW. People need jobs bad right now. I will work for gm for a good price, i dont need 30/hour to do a simpleton job. eithier way if the big 3 fail, this economy is going to get way way worse. as for them showing up in private jets... thats total b/s if you need money you better damn well make it atleast beliveable. that was a big fuck up on there part.



There are BANKS for loans... the federal government is NOT A BANK.

Oh that's right, they've (the Big3) dug themselves so far into a whole that no Bank would loan to them (even if credit was flowing everywhere) ...

What good is loaning them money going to do when they're burning through it faster than they can make it ... they need to restructure, Loaning them money now when they'll just need another loan in 6 months or they'll then file for bankruptcy thus not repaying the LOAN is stupid

It's now or later, but in the end it's inevitable that they are going to fail unless they restructure ,cut costs, and dump the unions

I agree it is not GM itself that should receive all of the hate. The union is absolutely ridiculous. They sucked the company dry and REFUSES to lower the current standards. GM should not have cooperated like it did but that can be changed. The current credit problems are hitting the company hard because credit is their business. The majority of their sales are due to credit. I think Ford and GM (notice i left out Chrysler) are very valuble assets to our country and need to be kept. If we were ever to have another large scale war who would manufacture our military transportation. We should not be completely dependent on other countries for anything

Thats who's going to be building your cars and trucks.
The union has strict standards to people screwing up. Get rid of the union and pay some dumbass by the hour and watch where your quality control goes.

So...where does that leave the American auto workers? Right in the same position they're going to be in if this automotive dooms day comes. Which it's not.

This happened in 1980, I asked my dad a few things, and mentioned this in another thread here.
There was a bailout in 1980 and it was paid back 100% in 5 years.
Must not have been that big a deal since the whole world seems to have forgotten about that one.


Fact remains they get paid alot of money for menial redundant unskilled tasks (not all but most) (is there actually such a position as lug nut installer? lol)

And you know it's funny... i've never worked anywhere w/a Union, and surprisingly quality control is pretty high where i've worked too... and guess what... you mess up and you are dealt with ... wow, so that's not just a Union thing lol What's even more surprising is everywhere I've worked, I have to show I work hard, and go above and beyond to show I deserve a raise... not simply have it written in my contract "after a year you get x% raise regardless of how the company is doing or your performance"

Unions are outdated


and if you think this is the same situation as 1980 , puff puff pass

GM alone lost 15 billion last quarter... consumer confidence is down , and imports are much much more competitive than they were in 1980 ... 1980 the Big 3 were vehicles in this country, not the case any longer.

A 25 billion dollar bail out will not even last them 2 quarters ... they need to trim the fat and redo upper management , simple as that. If filing chapter 11 is the quickest way to do it, so be it ....

Who built the vehicles the kids and those school teachers got to school in?
Who educated those car builders? Public school teachers did, yet they make half the money some dumbshit with a GED does bolting down a seat every 5 minutes.

Guess who's going to build cars if the UAW disappears
More Asians

The union has strict standards to people screwing up. Get rid of the union and pay some dumbass by the hour and watch where your quality control goes.
I'm pretty sure a non-unionized company is perfectly capable of maintaining a strict quality control department.

in the late 80's he used to bring home around $300 a week. Figure what that equals now, I don't know. In the low $20/hr range.


You may need to work on your math skills a little.

And one problem is, the UAW gives such good benefits most workers will leave with them.

Yeah, but where will they go? To the bar with no money?

Fact remains they get paid alot of money for menial redundant unskilled tasks (not all but most) (is there actually such a position as lug nut installer? lol)

And you know it's funny... i've never worked anywhere w/a Union, and surprisingly quality control is pretty high where i've worked too... and guess what... you mess up and you are dealt with ... wow, so that's not just a Union thing lol What's even more surprising is everywhere I've worked, I have to show I work hard, and go above and beyond to show I deserve a raise... not simply have it written in my contract "after a year you get x% raise regardless of how the company is doing or your performance"

Unions are outdated


and if you think this is the same situation as 1980 , puff puff pass

GM alone lost 15 billion last quarter... consumer confidence is down , and imports are much much more competitive than they were in 1980 ... 1980 the Big 3 were vehicles in this country, not the case any longer.

A 25 billion dollar bail out will not even last them 2 quarters ... they need to trim the fat and redo upper management , simple as that. If filing chapter 11 is the quickest way to do it, so be it ....

:judge:<<< I don't think he can bang hard enough.

You may need to work on your math skills a little.

No I did not calculate that, my uncle recently retired from Chrysler. No assembly worker makes over high $20 per hour.

Yeah, but where will they go? To the bar with no money?

They think they're a part of something that will always be around. They will leave if the UAW leaves. But the sad fact is they will end up outside the bar begging for money.

Have you ever worked for a company that produces as much as an assembly plant? On a line that doesn't stop moving? How do you think your quality control would be if you did?
What do you do for a living?

nope, that's why I went to college (j/k don't hang me, I was doing what I do now since 15) :P Yes it's physical, but it's still menial, redundant, and unskilled. The union contracts dictate pay based on tenure, whereas the rest of the world bases it on performance, both you, and your company. (yes tenure allows you to rise through the ranks, but it's because you've learned more and more valuable skills)

But none of that dictates the bloated prices the unions FORCE upon the big 3 ... the pay should be based on the sae standards as most any other non union company ...

As for what I do for a living, if anything I should be petitioning for Unions (due to the job security) but I don't because I don't support them. I'm a Sr. Software engineer ... quite an easy job to offshore unless you're in a niche market as I got into.


edit: I just realized, if anything the Unions should setup a special computer programmer fund and donate to that... just think how much harder their jobs would be if they didn't have all the assists they have now) :P

Anyone even been IN a plant before? Probably not since they only gave tours for family members. I went when I was 13, so it wasn't yesterday.

I have toured the Corvette assembly plant in Bowling Green, Kentucky. It didn't seem like much of a high stress work environment, and they have tourists staring at them all day.

But those are Corvettes, and you say they allow tourists?


yea, I've been on it several times as well as many i know, last time I went was 06 I believe, saw them assembling the first Z51 C6s and Z06s (or may hae been 05) ... it was a big thing when the F-Body celebration was in BG

Really doesn't matter that I've never worked in a factory before... anyone with 5 minutes training can put an impact gun on a bolt and push the button until the computer says "ok it's tight enough"

I fail to see why it matters if I don't have any family that's ever woked at a plant ... if anything it shows you're letting emotion cloud your judgement.

Had to quote someone, sorry don't take this personally.
I have two former UAW Chrysler workers in my family, too bad they're not computer people, not much info from them to add here.

Lug nut installers don't make that much.
Who built the cars all you people drove to work? Who built the vehicles the kids and those school teachers got to school in?
UAW workers.
Guess who's going to build cars if the UAW disappears, LOL you think they have unskilled workers NOW? Try immigrants, mainly mexicans.
And I'm not talking about the Americanized Mexicans that are here on ls1tech, I'm talking about those who can't even operate a computer to read this site.
Thats who's going to be building your cars and trucks.
The union has strict standards to people screwing up. Get rid of the union and pay some dumbass by the hour and watch where your quality control goes.

So...where does that leave the American auto workers? Right in the same position they're going to be in if this automotive dooms day comes. Which it's not.

This happened in 1980, I asked my dad a few things, and mentioned this in another thread here.
There was a bailout in 1980 and it was paid back 100% in 5 years.
Must not have been that big a deal since the whole world seems to have forgotten about that one.

I personally think we need a cut back on the number of new vehicles produced each year. Aside from major wrecks most vehicles I see getting crushed are totally rebuildable. I'd like to see new companies that rebuild old cars. Imagine the jobs that would open up. It's already big business remanufacturing just about every part of the drivetrain, why not the entire car?
Quite a delusional idea I'm afraid, haven't thought of it much really.


So let me get this straight:

You're saying that the quality of the automobiles produced by UAW workers is superior than the quality of automobiles produced by non union labor? Are you on crack?

Let's not forget that always underlying factor called perception. Public perception is that GM is heading towards chapter 11. Would you buy a GM vehicle if they were going to file for bankruptcy? Say goodbye to your warranty. Sales continuously decrease based upon that alone which further damages the company. The bailout may alter that perception and give people confidence to buy GM vehicles.

Just a thought.

...and being in the auto industry myself, the UAW needs to go.

This threads topic is: Do we have any big 3 auto employees?
Apparently we don't.
But I have family who were. Thats where it comes in.

About the impact gun...have you ever worked on a car on a lift?
My point is, hold an impact gun over your head for 8 hours, it gets heavy. For the sake of arguement hold a pencil over your head for eight hours, your arm gets heavy.
This is a job on an assembly line. A line keeps moving, that means you can pull it down and take a break.

You do understand that ergonomics are always a priority in a mfg environment right? Specifically at Ford, GM, and Chrysler. I've been in damned near everyone of their North American Assembly plants. The company I previously worked for was a major Tier 1 supplier to all OEMs.

You sound like a young guy with no real experience. No offense, but that's
what it sounds like to me. It's lame talking about "what my uncles says" BTW. :eyes:

So let me get this straight:

You're saying that the quality of the automobiles produced by UAW workers is superior than the quality of automobiles produced by non union labor? Are you on crack?

No, No. Thanks for asking.

From what i've seen at any assembly line that requires the use of something like an impact it's hanging from a reel and you actually have to pull it down a little to the actual task, it is hanging very close so it's always within reach and you can let it go.

Let the Big 3 die..they did it to themselves. Get rid of UAW, replace the CEO's, etc and pay the workers what they are worth. CEO's received 8 digit BONUSES last year and for what?!?!

I personally know a former CEO of one of the big 3. You can't even fathom the amount of work, time, and effort that is involved...not to mention the unbelievable intelligence level required. I was shocked when I found out just how hard my friend worked while the perception was that he was the typical big dollar CEO living the jet set life...not even close.

When you run one of the biggest companies in the wold, even all the above isn't enough to keep it afloat when the business model is broken. I still feel that the CEO's deserve just compensation and IMO a $10M bonus ($5M after taxes) is completely warranted.

From what i've seen at any assembly line that requires the use of something like an impact it's hanging from a reel and you actually have to pull it down a little to the actual task, it is hanging very close so it's always within reach and you can let it go.

Yep...and there is minimal effort required.

It is Out of sheer "hater-ism", that I'm calling B.S on these posted hourly figures of "nut-fasteners" and "ball tighteners". They can't be pullin' in $30/hr drilling a hole all day. It ain't right:argh:

I personally know a former CEO of one of the big 3. You can't even fathom the amount of work, time, and effort that is involved...not to mention the unbelievable intelligence level required. I was shocked when I found out just how hard my friend worked while the perception was that he was the typical big dollar CEO .

Now how would you know this? Is it based off what your personal friend SAYS?
HUH that sounds familiar. It's lame talking about "what my uncles says" BTW. :eyes:

GOOD. Let the workers leave with the piece of sh*t UAW. Then I'll have a job, and I'll work hard, and I won't expect 30/hour to do it. There ya go GM your white horse has arrived.

You sound like a young guy with no real experience:

If you consider young as someone who toured the chrysler plant in the 80's at 13 years of age, then ok.
You sound like you have no experience with a calculator or counting fingers. :eyes:

Glad I ruined this thread. :hijack::punch::gtfo::chug:

Oh and where did you come up with the idea that mexicans would be in the factory. Sounds like you have no real facts so your just attempting to induce fear. Not needed and also a bit offensive to mexican people. They seem to have fine quality work from the factories there.

Been on a tour of the Janesville WI GM plant and the SUV's go by at chest height for the average size person.

Have you ever worked for a company that produces as much as an assembly plant? On a line that doesn't stop moving? How do you think your quality control would be if you did?
What do you do for a living?

Yes. Yes. It wasnt bad, Im sure when I was falling asleep from boredom it wasnt that good though. I work in the IT field now.

Assembly line isnt hard. I worked at a plant every summer since I was 16 until I was 20. It was so fucking easy a cave-man could do it.

Comparing 1980's plants to plants of today is not reasonable. Today, they are heavily into safety and ergonomics. You will not have to lift anything heavy in today's plants. Those air impacts you mentioned now hang from cables and hoist arms. The operators just position them over the bolt. Hell, even a computer torques them down for them. This is NOT physical labor. If you want physical labor, go hang out in the construction industry. I don't consider standing around in the A/C and tightening a few bolts as physical. Try moving furniture or grinding/welding pipe in the hot sun wearing nomex and a hard-hat for 12 hrs a day.

UAW is worthless. The majority of their workers are highly overpaid for their skill level. At the Corvette plant, I saw one guy who just installed the interior baby seat tether hold-down. He had three screws to tighten, and the car moved on. That isn't skill, that is a minimum wage job right there. It took more skill for me to memorize the entire McD's burger menu and condiments for each burger, cook them, assemble them, and wrap them...when I was 15, and getting min wage.

All good points but that means prying it out of the UAW hands. And rebuilding an entire corperation. And one problem is, the UAW gives such good benefits most workers will leave with them.
Starting from scratch may not be a bad idea, but it's going to take a lot of work. I guarantee it's never going to happen.

You are truely a living in your own world.

Let those over paid whiny line workers leave. There are plenty of people waiting in line to take their spot.


My brother is a non union machinist for TRW Automotive in Oakwood, Georgia. A couple of months ago he and some other machinists flew up to Ohio to look at some work that was GM was moving to TRW from their Delphi plant up there. He said the machinist that were doing the same job he was doing were being paid $37 an hour. He makes right around $19. More work is coming down from many of the union parts manufacturers to TRW which is non union.

I say to the UAW & other over paid union workers, don't let the door hit you in the ass on your way out.

Nine Ball has put it right. Here is the take home message kids. The UAW workers have had it great for years. Now its time for the real world.
UAW is worthless. The majority of their workers are highly overpaid for their skill level. At the Corvette plant, I saw one guy who just installed the interior baby seat tether hold-down. He had three screws to tighten, and the car moved on. That isn't skill, that is a minimum wage job right there. It took more skill for me to memorize the entire McD's burger menu and condiments for each burger, cook them, assemble them, and wrap them...when I was 15, and getting min wage.

Comparing 1980's plants to plants of today is not reasonable. Today, they are heavily into safety and ergonomics. You will not have to lift anything heavy in today's plants. Those air impacts you mentioned now hang from cables and hoist arms. The operators just position them over the bolt. Hell, even a computer torques them down for them. This is NOT physical labor. UAW is worthless. The majority of their workers are highly overpaid for their skill level. .

If comparing 1980's to today is unreasonable then why the hell are people responding to what I post?
It fucking amazes me how I can post outdated crap that people should ignore and it ends up I totally rule the damn thread.
IGNORE ME!!
I thought I made it clear that relatives worked there, not me. Take that for what it is and ignore what I post!

OK I will bite on this topic some.

I was a union worker for GM when I was 21 (1997 roughly) working on the line. I was paid something like $17.83 per hour which was well under the $22 something the permenant line workers got paid. I was on a temp basis while GM finished out the 90's model Buick Centry and Oldsmobile Cutlass cars. When that model line died and the plant retooled for the Trailblazer all of us temp workers (A7's) were laid off permenantly.

Nineball is right, there is not one ergonomic job on that line that does not make the job as easy as possible for the line worker. Everything is either hung or tethered or supported so minimal input from the worker is needed. If a job is too exerting then you got a ergo break. I know this for a fact as my last line position was a ergo job. Out of a 8 hour job I only worked 5.5 hours of the shift. The rest I was on either my normal break or a ergo break.

I can tell you that UAW lineworkers are over paid, very well over paid and they constantly ask for more each time the union contracts come around and by using the fear of a STRIKE and putting that in eyes of the Big 3 if they (UAW union) dont get their way.

My household is a split house, my step mother was a union GM worker in our local plant, my dad was a Salary Manager over the maintenance people that fix the machines. I got to hear of the incompetant employees on occassion who either come into work drunk, high, or were robbing GM blind. They would be sent home only to have their UAW steward fight for thier return. My dad was powerless to get rid of these people as the union always fought for the person to get them back on the line.

You know why, if that union worker was not working that meant the UAW was not making it union dues from that employee.

We had/have very heated conversations at the dinner table at times. I was a union worker but I dont see the way of the union, I like others see it as a old dinosaur that needs to die and go the way of the Dodo bird.

I dont think that retired employees should get 100% paid for healthcare that they pay nothing for each month. I dont think a union line worker should get paid almost $30 per hour. Now if you are skilled trades person then yes lets entertain that pay, but for someone who only needs about 1 million brain cells to do their job they dont need to be paid anymore than $15 per hour or so with normal raises baised on performance and attendance each year.

I work for one of the largest Electric utility companies in the USA (OG&E) here in Oklahoma. We are a very well known company in our field. I tried for 5 years to get a job with my company. Without a degree in a needed field or a trade job (Utility lineman) I had to resort to coming in off of the street through our call center and field calls from customers on a daily basis.

Do we get paid well, yes I do. I make around $35,000 per year doing my job, but I also have to work overtime with no warning at times due to weather issues. I have to be able to perform at my job flawlessly each and every call. We monitor almost all of our calls and score 1/10 of those calls. You know what our minimum call score is...85%, my average is 99.9% and the company average is 95%.

Heck our company does it job(s) so well that JD Powers gave us several awards baised on customer satisfaction surveys.

My company is a prime example of paying people well based on their performance and not because a union says you have to as we are a non union company. We have health benefits that we pay a portion of and the company pays part of like a normal company. We have a company matched 401k plan and we also do get a company paid for pension. In return for those benefits the company does not pay for our healthcare once we retire. It was a choice we made as employees several years ago. We could of had the company pay for the retiree healthcare or more money in our retirement fund each month. We chose the retirement fund.

Main part of my long story is it is possible to have a profitable company and pay its employees a decent liveable wage and those employees be happy every day...Yes it is. Most of the people in my office have over 15 years minimum tenure other than people like me that just recently hired in a year ago. That says alot about a company. In my companies line of work we dont get to deciede our ability to make money on our product (electricity for your home) instead the State of Oklahoma tells us what we can charge, we have to do what we can to be as efficient as possible to make every cent we can from the rate we charge.

What other company do you know of that is told how much it can charge for its products every month?



In closing the UAW is a dead thing, the Big 3 need to sheed them. I dont want to see any of the Big 3 leave as the job impact and waterfall effect of any of the Big 3 closing or filing for bancruptcy will be very drastic. They do need to take this seriously and restructure and trim themselves in any way possible. In the same essense the Govt needs to step up and offer assistance in any way possible including revisiting the NAFTA act and leveling the playing field in the USA for the foriegn automakers.

We have a long road ahead of us and we need to support our USA brands or else we will all be buying foriegn everything before long and the foriegn countries will own most everything here in the USA.

You are truely a living in your own world.

Let those over paid whiny line workers leave. There are plenty of people waiting in line to take their spot.


My brother is a non union machinist for TRW Automotive in Oakwood, Georgia. A couple of months ago he and some other machinists flew up to Ohio to look at some work that was GM was moving to TRW from their Delphi plant up there. He said the machinist that were doing the same job he was doing were being paid $37 an hour. He makes right around $19. More work is coming down from many of the union parts manufacturers to TRW which is non union.

I say to the UAW & other over paid union workers, don't let the door hit you in the ass on your way out.


I have a hub on my Z28 that was made in China. Does that offend the chinese? I mean damn I already offended mexico, look I didn't even use a capitol M.
I don't give a damn about the UAW, never said I did.
Yea, FUCK THE UAW! ALRIGHT!
THIS IS ALL i GOT TO SAY ABOUT THIS POST. :usa::rotflmao:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Q2fGl9587X8

i agree with nine ball too........union now a days just are middlemen, they cant benefit anybody but people that are about to loose their jobs for doing something stupid....with all the laws that we have in place their is no need for them.......the same unions in the the educational field kept a child molester home with pay for 9 months in california with pay, and it was his second time.....

my former employer went union and they lost all their privileges, they had to work 2 to 3 years to even out all their union fees.......50 years ago they may have helped workers receive fair wages and protect them in the work enviroment, but now they have only cause us trouble,,we willnever be able to compete with all the cheap labor that japan has and other asian countries....shit mercedes opened a plant in china....we will never get out of this shit that we are in if we can compete...

oh and those mexicans that cant read that somebody refered to..they been building cars for years.. nothing really complex about building cars its all in the training.....

The fact is, Unions used to be a great thing, then they got greedy. Just like executives got greedy. You cannot have greed sucking at both ends of a company forever and expect it to stay open. If someone offered to pay any of you $30 an hour to do easy tasks, you most likely wouldnt turn it down. It isnt the man on the lines fault. Its the UAW and the Big Three's fault! Not everyone in the world can be an Engineer, or a Business Man, and they should be able to earn a decent wage, and support their family just the same. And before anyone accuses me of being a "line worker" I am an Engineer at a 100% non automotive Hydraulic Sealing corporation.

Oh and without GM, there would be no LS1tech.

The fact is, Unions used to be a great thing, then they got greedy. Just like executives got greedy. You cannot have greed sucking at both ends of a company forever and expect it to stay open. If someone offered to pay any of you $30 an hour to do easy tasks, you most likely wouldnt turn it down. It isnt the man on the lines fault. Its the UAW and the Big Three's fault! Not everyone in the world can be an Engineer, or a Business Man, and they should be able to earn a decent wage, and support their family just the same. And before anyone accuses me of being a "line worker" I am an Engineer at a 100% non automotive Hydraulic Sealing corporation.


werd!!!!! totally agreed

Thats funny....the big 3 executives just got blasted for flying in on private corporate jets! What it amounts to is idiots from the top down running a corporation, flying around in corporate jets, taking huge bonuses and acting like its ok....then you have the UAW demanding more benefits and pay for simple ass jobs. If the autoworkers cant see whats going on right now and read between the lines...well they deserve to lose it all. I run my own company and if I start seeing a trend of less money coming in the door and its consistent...guess what..I trim expenses...I would tell the union to kiss my ass and hire people who want a job.

Lug nut installers don't make that much.
Who built the cars all you people drove to work? Who built the vehicles the kids and those school teachers got to school in?
UAW workers.
Guess who's going to build cars if the UAW disappears, LOL you think they have unskilled workers NOW? Try immigrants, mainly mexicans.
And I'm not talking about the Americanized Mexicans that are here on ls1tech, I'm talking about those who can't even operate a computer to read this site.
Thats who's going to be building your cars and trucks.
The union has strict standards to people screwing up. Get rid of the union and pay some dumbass by the hour and watch where your quality control goes.

So...where does that leave the American auto workers? Right in the same position they're going to be in if this automotive dooms day comes. Which it's not.


I know this is from a couple pages back, and I'm not attacking you for saying this, because I know a lot of people got after you for some of the stuff you said. Nonetheless, this post is very inaccurate. You said that if the UAW got the boot, that even more unskilled laborers would be building our cars. This is VERY far from the truth. Toyota, Nissan, and Honda have car factories here in the U.S. All of their factories are non-union, and much lower wage than the Big 3's factories. Yet, they build cars that the majority of experts and consumers rank as some of the highest quality vehicles in their classes. Now I love all of my GM vehicles, but it's no secret that the Japanese makers have been putting better features and greater quality into their cars, all in NON_UNION factories.

I would rather not see any of the big 3 file for bankruptcy, however, I think the only way for them to genuinely restructure and shed union contracts and legacy costs is to file for bankruptcy.

If someone offered to pay any of you $30 an hour to do easy tasks, you most likely wouldnt turn it down. Not everyone in the world can be an Engineer, or a Business Man, and they should be able to earn a decent wage, and support their family just the same.

No, nobody would turn down something that was obviously too good to be true. If someone gave you a free Ferrari, would you turn it down? Of course not.

This isn't the line man's fault, but it IS the line man's fault thinking that this gravy train had no end. It IS the line man's fault that he didn't pursue a college degree or technical training, instead of settling as Joe Lugnut. Everyone in this country knows what it takes to make a living and earn an income. Not everyone takes the easy route, or the free handouts.

I worked in chemical plants that were half union workers. Those guys were paid more than us contract workers, and most of them were flat out lazy. They knew they were going to make a check at the end of the week, regardless of their productivity or hours put in. Hell, they used to berate the contractors and brag about how much they made for how little they did. Like that was something to be proud of. I was 18, and had my first dose of union workers, things haven't changed 18 years later.

What about the over-inflated pay of the workers at these auto companies, thanks to union contracts. $1,600 of every GM car you buy goes toward the healthcare costs of union workers(http://knowledge.wpcarey.asu.edu/article.cfm?articleid=1486). For companies like Toyota that aren't unionized - that cost is only $200 per car. GM also spends another $1,000 per vehicle on holiday pay, work rules, plant-shutdown-pay and line-relief to UAW workers. Those are costs that auto makers such as Toyota don't have to worry about. The average Ford, GM or Chrysler union worker makes about $71.00 or more per hour. For Toyota, Nissan and the rest ... about $48.00 per year. Do you detect a small problem here?

If the above doesn't piss you off then this should.
http://www.detnews.com/2005/autosinsider/0510/17/A01-351179.htm

Source:
http://boortz.com/nealz_nuze/2008/11/democrats-still-want-an-auto-b.html

I support the unions 100%, of course because I am a union construction worker. The fact is is just like every line of work there will always be greed and corruption the unions are no different. Other than that you can not say that you know all of the union workers are unskilled or lazy for no reason other than you think they dont deserve what they make. Im not talking the baggers union you were part of when you worked at the grocery store and made 5 bucks an hour (Yes that union exists). Unions have a way of weeding out non hackers and shitbags, they have regular drug testing, apprenticeships, etc. Not anyone is allowed into a high paying union position without being put through the proper steps. Im sorry if it pisses you off that you couldnt or cant get into a union for one reason or another. The fact is is that it is hard to get a well paying job like that,but we do earn our money. Yes some have it better than others, but that doesnt change that we work our asses off for what we have.

All I have to say is dont hate unions when you have no reason for it, and saying that we make to much is not a good reason. My dad fed my family as a union pipefitter and one day Ill be able to support a family being a union boilermaker. If you made 70K-150K a year with a pension and insurance to back it up you wouldnt be talking shit.

Wel then THROTTLEJUNKIE I guess the lesson here is then you had better hope your industry that your union is in better not go under or else you will be under the scutinty of everyones eye questioning why people in your industry make $75,000-$150,000 one day.

The thing is when a entire domestic auto industry is in the same position and for years they have complained that the UAW and the demands the UAW makes on each contract contributes to increasing cost in the form of pay, healthcare benefits, and benefits in general continue to add to the increasing cost of each vehicle they make all the while their foriegn counterparts are not having to endure those same condition then yes something does not need to be revisited and changes need to be made.

Anyone tell me 3 things the UAW does that any regular employer does not already do in a normal day to day company?

Anyone...Anyone?

I can tell you there is nothing, nothing special at all. Nothing that a normal ole state and federal governed and over sighted company doesnt already do on a normal basis. Normal companies monitor and manage employees through the performance of its employees. They revisit pay and benefits on a yearly basis and make changes accordingly.

The safety is there in the workplace due to OSHA and not because of the unions. So that is another avenue that the unions are not needed for once again.

If memory serves me right the average UAW union worker pays 2 hours of their monthly pay towards uniond due. At $35 per hour that is $70 per month and $840 per year per member. Now how many UAW workers are there in the USA...alot.

I worked for the UAW union and know for a fact they serve no real purpose anymore. They protect lazy workers, dangerous workers, untrustworthy workers and so on every day. Yes there are good workers that do the job there are requested to do everyday so dont get me wrong.

The union in nothing more than a modern day Mob and still use their power to extort money (payand benefits) under the premise if the Big 3 dont cave in they will strike the plants until they do.

Do you still see the modern day mob anywhere these days?

I support the unions 100%...Unions have a way of weeding out non hackers and shitbags, they have regular drug testing, apprenticeships, etc. Not anyone is allowed into a high paying union position without being put through the proper steps. Im sorry if it pisses you off that you couldnt or cant get into a union for one reason or another. The fact is is that it is hard to get a well paying job like that,but we do earn our money. Yes some have it better than others, but that doesnt change that we work our asses off for what we have.

1. Non-union companies also drug test, also train, etc... They are also more efficient at firing someone for lack of performance. A slacker in the union workforce has his union mafia to put pressure on an employer to keep him.

2. People should be rewarded for their hard work, they should not be rewarded automatically just because they are part of a club (UAW).

3. Not everyone is sharp enough or skilled enough to do certain things on an assembly line. That is understandable. So, put the dumb people on duty to do menial non-technical stuff and pay them less. Joe Lugnut shouldn't be making as much as someone assembling engines. That should be a minimum wage position vs a $25/hr position. But, the idiots still get paid far more than min wage just because they are in a union.

4. Everyone works their asses off for what they have, you don't need to be in a union to do that. You make it sound like union people are the only ones who work in this country, when in reality it is leaning towards the other side of that perception. Most union people rely on that parachute called the union to save their ass if they are slacking, non-union people do not get that luxury.

About the impact gun...have you ever worked on a car on a lift?
My point is, hold an impact gun over your head for 8 hours, it gets heavy. For the sake of arguement hold a pencil over your head for eight hours, your arm gets heavy.
This is a job on an assembly line. A line keeps moving, that means you can't pull it down and take a break.

LOL! my dad has been a NON UNION auto mechanic for the past 30 years or so ... he has had a lift in his garage since I was 13 (15 years now), and I've worked on my own cars (with his help of course) since I got my first car (Peugeot) in 1995 .....

considering that pencil has machinery hooked up to it so that I don't feel the weight ... um yea... lol

and again ... maybe it's difficult, but it's still UNSKILLED! The MARKET should dictate pay, not some Union officials

Can I get my username changed to Joe Lugnut?


More Appropriate would be "My Unc and Dad used to be Union so I support them w/out question" and maybe add on "and I toured a plant once" ... though the second part has already been shown that more than just employees and family have done that lol

Now call your Uncle or Dad back and ask them how to respond

Who considers $35,000 a year good pay? I don't.

Wow. I can't even think of words to describe how pissed I am about that statement.

Be thankful that you are obviously better off than a lot of people. And stop being such an ignorant and arrogant fool. http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Poverty_in_the_United_States

For the love of money is a root of all kinds of evil. Some people, in their eagerness to get rich, have wandered away from the faith and caused themselves a lot of pain. 1Tim 6:10

Who built the cars all you people drove to work? Who built the vehicles the kids and those school teachers got to school in?
UAW workers.
Guess who's going to build cars if the UAW disappears,

The same people who are doing it now. But they won't have a union backing them. If they don't take a pay cut and work for what they are worth... tough crap. There are a lot of people that would like a job right now.

Wow. I can't even think of words to describe how pissed I am about that statement.
]

Just my opinion man calm down, who's to say I don't make $15,000 a year?
Did I say what I make? No I didn't.
I don't consider what I make a lot of money, just like I don't consider $35,000 a year a lot of money.

Sounds like everyone is jealous of Joe Lugnut making 100K tightening screws sitting on his fat ass in his ergonomically correct workplace.
In all reality that seems to be the common complaint among anti union people here.
Go non union and I'll install them thar screws fer 10 dollers an arh.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Q2fGl9587X8
And since we're quoting great philosophers now I'll throw this out there.

"If money is your hope for independence you will never have it. The only real security that a man will have in this world is a reserve of knowledge, experience, and ability."

Just my opinion man calm down, who's to say I don't make $15,000 a year?
Did I say what I make? No I didn't.
I don't consider what I make a lot of money, just like I don't consider $35,000 a year a lot of money.

I don't care what you make, but don't dog hard-working honest Americans. Because it is obvious that you do make more than that.

Do we get paid well, yes I do. I make around $35,000 per year doing my job,

This guy does, be respectful.

And I'll end the quotes.
"It is better to remain silent and be thought a fool than to open one's mouth and remove all doubt."

Of all the informative posts in here from people with real life experience why do you pick me to talk shit about?

I'll answer that for you, because you know these people who posted on here who have been union employees will hand you your ass.


wrong answer :) It's because your posts (in this threda) are so assinine ... they go in 20 different directions, and many started with "my uncle said, my dad said, I'm not calling my uncle anymore " yada yada

Plus you seem to easily become upset, so between the content of your posts and your demeanor ... I find it fun :D

wrong answer :) It's because your posts (in this threda) are so assinine ... they go in 20 different directions, and many started with "my uncle said, my dad said, I'm not calling my uncle anymore " yada yada

Plus you seem to easily become upset, so between the content of your posts and your demeanor ... I find it fun :D

I'd rather talk about cars, fuck this bullshit. Thats why my messages go 100 different directions, it's because these are not my actual experiences.

Plus you seem to easily become upset, so between the content of your posts and your demeanor ... I find it fun :D
Yea, I knew you were sitting there yanking your dick over this.
Why don't you ban me so everyone can talk shit while I have no retort, I bet you'd love that.
Yes I did delete my posts here (you don't have to bring that to my attention, well, since I did it) they're all quoted so it's still there anyway.
So continue on...talk some more shit, have fun with me or get into it with someone who will have fun with you? We know the obvious answer there.
I'm gonna go count my stacks of money now:pimp:, and maybe jiggle my nuts abit while the wife is out getting a facial (and no, not by some other dude)
Then I'll get back with you, see whats going on here. :D Yea, you guys love it. :google::sack:

our private get togethers are none of your business :P :P :D :engarde:

Please dont get me wrong, $35,000 is not a alot of money as far as a living goes. For oklahoma though it is not bad and for starting pay for any company that is not a bad start either.

I am all for people going the extra mile and getting a education to better themselves, i am currently doing that so that i can move up in my company in order to make more money.

A educated person should be compensated for their time and schooling. I have no issues with that as that person took the extra step to go to school and get that education and has to pay for it.

But paying a line worker to do the line jobs and paying them more than the people that educate our children is where alot of people have issues. There are alot of people that have jobs that are just as important as a uaw union worker that get paid crap. Ie:

School teachers
police
firefighters

just to name a few. Pay for the education and expereince not because you have to (uaw).

This guy makes as much sense as a football bat.

This guy makes as much sense as a football bat.

:ripped::jest::jest::mullet:

This guy makes as much sense as a football bat.

:jest: :funny:

The UAW is only part of the equation. The Big 3 finding that they can add a few bits of extra sheet metal and seats to truck platforms and call them SUVs and market them as supersafe outdoors vehicles for 3-5 times the profit margin they make on a car is just as much to blame. Why show any creative direction or make competitive cars when you can make better money selling luxury civilian tanks?

Ain't it a bitch when gas prices help kill that fad?

I still see no problem with the UAW. They did not do anything wrong. Upper managment fucked up at some point. The thing is if you eliminate the UAW the cost of cars will stay the same but the money that isnt paying employees will go right into the pockets of the same greedy people that got them into this mess. The UAW does ot need to go, the people than put them in this position do. I still havent heard any good reason why the UAW should be broken up other than they make more than you think they should

I still see no problem with the UAW. They did not do anything wrong. Upper managment fucked up at some point. The thing is if you eliminate the UAW the cost of cars will stay the same but the money that isnt paying employees will go right into the pockets of the same greedy people that got them into this mess. The UAW does ot need to go, the people than put them in this position do. I still havent heard any good reason why the UAW should be broken up other than they make more than you think they should

They are also a major political lobbying group. You know those shitty shadowy corporations that manipulate our federal government? They were the primary group responsible for bribing Congress to withhold data on the catastrophic rollover rates of mid-late 90s SUVs because of the huge profits they were making on them.

And the fact that they are paid well beyond what they deserve is a damn good argument as well imo. Not even working in healthcare compensates you 100% for medical expenses, only 80%.

I still see no problem with the UAW. They did not do anything wrong. Upper managment fucked up at some point. The thing is if you eliminate the UAW the cost of cars will stay the same but the money that isnt paying employees will go right into the pockets of the same greedy people that got them into this mess. The UAW does ot need to go, the people than put them in this position do. I still havent heard any good reason why the UAW should be broken up other than they make more than you think they should

You should go back and re-read posts 65 and 67. They have some pretty good information in them. Agreed that unions aren't the only problem. The companies need restructuring and trimming the fat. The fat being the unions. Foreign car makers are doing it, and doing it successfully.

They are also a major political lobbying group. You know those shitty shadowy corporations that manipulate our federal government? They were the primary group responsible for bribing Congress to withhold data on the catastrophic rollover rates of mid-late 90s SUVs because of the huge profits they were making on them.

And the fact that they are paid well beyond what they deserve is a damn good argument as well imo. Not even working in healthcare compensates you 100% for medical expenses, only 80%.


Please.....
So your telling me that if they really did pay off the feds, they are the only company to have ever done so. So many different corporations, and individuals for that matter, "contribute" towards political partys. So this is one other thing that you cannot single out one Union for doing.

Your other argument is not even an argument. Your just another person that doesnt think they deserve what they get paid. If you made that kind of money as a UAW worker you would not be complaining. Im I missing something that making great money has become a problem.....stop hating.

:gtfo:

You should go back and re-read posts 65 and 67. They have some pretty good information in them. Agreed that unions aren't the only problem. The companies need restructuring and trimming the fat. The fat being the unions. Foreign car makers are doing it, and doing it successfully.

Trimming the "fat" will still not solve any problem. Like I said if the money doesnt go to the workers its going to go into the pockets of the higher ups. In post 67 it points out how much of each car goes towards a UAW salary, pension, etc. Just because they are union its bad. I consider GM products comparable in price to foreign car makers. So just because 200 dollars goes to them instead of 2000 (or whatever the number is) is a bad thing. So when does the remaining 1800 go......right back up top into the corporate pockets. Still no valid argument.

La la la.

The facts are...

The big 3 top execs screwed the pooch, UAW knew they could get away with murder and did, good fo them.

Non unions can do just as good as unions.

They want a bail out because they don't want to restructure, they like having their pockets nice and fat. No matter how bad the company does they get the redic salaries and their even more redic bounses.

I know it's small patatos, but just to show how much they don't care they took their private jets to DC, they couldn't even share a jet with each other.


Best line in this thread..."without GM, there wouldn't be LS1 Tech" I laughed out loud when I read that.

You're right Throttle. The unions are not to blame. Let's keep doing the same thing and all the valuable unions will survive after they help run their host companies into the ground. Typiclal union mentality. How about we use union pension funds to bail out the companies before the taxpayers are asked to hold the bag? Answer: It is like throwing money away until the business is restructered.

You're right Throttle. The unions are not to blame. Let's keep doing the same thing and all the valuable unions will survive after they help run their host companies into the ground. Typiclal union mentality. How about we use union pension funds to bail out the companies before the taxpayers are asked to hold the bag? Answer: It is like throwing money away until the business is restructered.

They are getting a loan not a handout. The money will be repaid....so you can relax. Im not to sure why your thinking that unions dont care about a host company. If my union did that we wouldnt still be around after about 116 years. Im not intentionally disagreeing with everyone, Im just not seeing an issue. Yes thye are in a bad spot. Everyone is, if you needed help wouldnt you take it if it was offered?

Trimming the "fat" will still not solve any problem. Like I said if the money doesnt go to the workers its going to go into the pockets of the higher ups. In post 67 it points out how much of each car goes towards a UAW salary, pension, etc. Just because they are union its bad. I consider GM products comparable in price to foreign car makers. So just because 200 dollars goes to them instead of 2000 (or whatever the number is) is a bad thing. So when does the remaining 1800 go......right back up top into the corporate pockets. Still no valid argument.

Actually, the remaining 1800 might be considered profit, which if the Big 3 had any, they wouldn't be in this situation.

I'm in agreement with others here. Several changes need to be made, and the UAW is one of those changes.

Trimming the "fat" will still not solve any problem. Like I said if the money doesnt go to the workers its going to go into the pockets of the higher ups. In post 67 it points out how much of each car goes towards a UAW salary, pension, etc. Just because they are union its bad. I consider GM products comparable in price to foreign car makers. So just because 200 dollars goes to them instead of 2000 (or whatever the number is) is a bad thing. So when does the remaining 1800 go......right back up top into the corporate pockets. Still no valid argument.

LOL.

The higher ups can line their pockets all they want, but eventually supply and demand happens. And at the point when no one wants to buy your car because it is "$1800" more expensive then a competitor, they can stop lining their pockets and cut their price. The point is, they can't cut their prices any more and keep the doors open. That means they have to restructure and become more lean. They can't afford the burden of the unions anymore.

Like someone else said... once the parasite(UAW) kills its host(BIG3) how will the parasite live?

The problem is they're not being offered the help, the had to go beg on the door steps of washington. "boohooo, you helped the banks out, they were just as greedy and dumb as us, boohoo, can we have some too? I like all the perks I get I don't want to loose them, please Uncle Sam, pruuuty please"

You dont thing that they already make a substantial profit from vehicle sales as it is. Im not to sure that 1800 per car would have that much of an impact.

The problem is they're not being offered the help, the had to go beg on the door steps of washington. "boohooo, you helped the banks out, they were just as greedy and dumb as us, boohoo, can we have some too? I like all the perks I get I don't want to loose them, please Uncle Sam, pruuuty please"

There was 750billion to go around. The banks got more than what the big 3 are asking for. Yet the banks are still not loaning out what they were given. They are hoarding the money in case of financial collapse. That doesnt help anyone, so why isnt this being discussed. When that 750B bill was passed your money was already being put into use regardless of if it hadnt been loaned out yet. The money is already in the hands of the feds, its up to them to decide who gets it and how much.

No, but it would be an immediate effect. It is so simple a cave-man could see that.

In 05 GM sold 9million units worldwide. x $1800 per unit = hmm tad over 16billion there. Looks like a good start.

You're right it's in the feds hands if the big 3 get any money, hopefully the'll be smart and give them squat. Just cause they messed up when they gave the banks cash, but not putting restrictions on what they can do with it, doesn't mean they need to give cash to ever joe dick and harry that comes beggin.

You dont thing that they already make a substantial profit from vehicle sales as it is. Im not to sure that 1800 per car would have that much of an impact.

Link (http://www.autoblog.com/2008/01/23/gm-releases-global-sales-numbers-for-2007-in-dead-heat-with-toy/)

Based on this, GM sold 9,369,524 vehicles in 2007. If they made an additional $1800 on each of those, that would be $16,865,143,200.00 in additional profit. That is 16.87 BILLION. If you don't think that figure would have an impact, then nothing will convince you.

Also, consider that figure was just based on 2007's sales numbers. Now, if they had that additional margin for all of the prior years... I'll agree that they still show a downward trend over the years, but at least for now the crisis would be averted, saving millions of jobs.

No, but it would be an immediate effect. It is so simple a cave-man could see that.

In 05 GM sold 9million units worldwide. x $1800 per unit = hmm tad over 16billion there. Looks like a good start.
You beat me to it!

You beat me to it!

Yea, that statement was beyond ridiculous.

Tack on Fords 2.5mil vehicle sales will tack on 4bil +

So that means that the airlines got a handout, the banks got a hand out, fannie may and freddie mac got a handout, the housing industry gets a handout but the big 3 which emmploy and or make sure that all of the people that need services and goods from those above mentions bailed out people are bought dont get squat.

Once again the waterfall effect is going to come into play.

Heck cnn.com was just talking about how the mortgage forclosure increases are not putting a strain on city animal shelters because people are abandoning thier animals at a alarming rate.

It is all trickling down as we speak, lets continue to let it go and see how much longer we can go as a nation before all of us need some sort of handout to live day to day.

So that means that the airlines got a handout, the banks got a hand out, fannie may and freddie mac got a handout, the housing industry gets a handout but the big 3 which emmploy and or make sure that all of the people that need services and goods from those above mentions bailed out people are bought dont get squat.


sounds good to me... until the UAW is dead GM will just be floating by w/any money they get from the government ... then when they do go bankrupt finally they'll not have to pay back any of the LOAN

It's time for "Change"

My business needs a bailout too, wheres my $$$ :pimp:

sounds good to me... until the UAW is dead GM will just be floating by w/any money they get from the government ... then when they do go bankrupt finally they'll not have to pay back any of the LOAN

It's time for "Change"


You can't bail on a government loan.

The thing is if you eliminate the UAW the cost of cars will stay the same but the money that isnt paying employees will go right into the pockets of the same greedy people that got them into this mess.

No, that extra money would be considered PROFIT. With PROFIT, a company can stay in business. Do we really have to explain this to you? Union = expensive labor = less profit.

The UAW does ot need to go, the people than put them in this position do

I can assure you, the people that put the UAW into power like this are LONG gone. But, in modern society they have these things called contracts. Contracts often outlive the people who write them. Think of them as a crappy inheritance that incoming leaders get dumped on their shoulders and have to deal with. Again, why do you not understand this?

Im not to sure why your thinking that unions dont care about a host company.

Of course they care. They NEED the company to pay their fat payroll and make them some nice profits. Funny, I don't hear about the UAW going out of business right now, seems they are doing just fine at the top. So yes, the UAW cares for the big three just as much as a mosquito cares about the person it is sucking blood from. If a union truly cared and put the company first, there would never have been any strikes in the past, period. Strike = looking out for best interests of the union, not the company.

I thought all new people getting hired into / temp hourly jobs at GM made $14 an hour. A tier system of pay they implemented.

If you consider young as someone who toured the chrysler plant in the 80's at 13 years of age, then ok.
You sound like you have no experience with a calculator or counting fingers. :eyes:

Glad I ruined this thread. :hijack::punch::gtfo::chug:

If you can't have a mature conversation, we don't need you here.

If you can't have a mature conversation, we don't need you here.


Thank you.:nod:

They are getting a loan not a handout. The money will be repaid....so you can relax.

Uh, how do you know they'll pay it back?

Uh, how do you know they'll pay it back?


The argurement is that since chryster paid theirs back way back when that the big 3 will now surely pay theirs back. But none of the other bailed out companies right now are under requirements to pay it back.

The argurement is that since chryster paid theirs back way back when that the big 3 will now surely pay theirs back. But none of the other bailed out companies right now are under requirements to pay it back.

Okiedokie. What I'm saying is that some here are trying to call the $25 billion a "loan". I'm saying it's a "bailout" or even a "donation". It's only a "loan" when the money is actually paid back, or when there's a steady payment schedule. :nod:
If I go to the bank and ask for $20k to buy a car, they don't just tell me, "Here, have it. Just pay us back whenever." They do a credit check to see if I can actually pay them back. Then, if they approve the money, they say, "You're interest is X% and your payments are $Y/month for Z months. So looking through the eyes of a "creditor", how can these companies (namely GM), pay back a loan when their bills exceed their income? It's risky lending like this that got our country in this financial mess in the first place.

Okiedokie. What I'm saying is that some here are trying to call the $25 billion a "loan". I'm saying it's a "bailout" or even a "donation". It's only a "loan" when the money is actually paid back. :nod:


I agree 100%. :) Any money given to a private company is bullshit IMO.

I worked for a place in Frankfort KY that makes composite intake manifolds (including the L76 BTW) and various plastic parts for GM, Ford, Chrystler and a bunch of foreign auto makers as well, I unfortuneately got laid off back at the first of September due to the auto industry sucking. So I'm unemployed at the moment thanks to this crap economy.

Please.....
So your telling me that if they really did pay off the feds, they are the only company to have ever done so. So many different corporations, and individuals for that matter, "contribute" towards political partys. So this is one other thing that you cannot single out one Union for doing.

Your other argument is not even an argument. Your just another person that doesnt think they deserve what they get paid. If you made that kind of money as a UAW worker you would not be complaining. Im I missing something that making great money has become a problem.....stop hating.

:gtfo:

What are you 12? Your logic is equivalent to an adolescent. Lets take a look at your logic:

Who gives a shit if its our money that its going towards. If the auto industry goes under it will be the loss of more than just big 3 jobs. Steel mills around here have no steel orders because of the auto industry hurting. Companies that produce plastics will hurt, also companies that even make the vinyl stickers and what not will also be affected. The more people that lose their jobs are that many more people that cannot put spend money to help fix the economy. It doesnt just stop at the big 3, everyone will begin to suffer.

Your first post is a copy of this asshole's argument: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=6ZyAd_rJAx4
"It's not your money." If it were up to me, anyone who made that remark would be publicly lynched. I in turn ask the same question the host asks that prick- Where do we draw the line? When the textile worker comes begging for change and fearmongering threatening the collapse of other industries if we don't steal from the American public do we help him as well? Or appliance manufacturers using the same argument? Where do you draw the line? Or do you think that only the auto industry deserves it because you have a personal vested interest?

I support the unions 100%, of course because I am a union construction worker. The fact is is just like every line of work there will always be greed and corruption the unions are no different. Other than that you can not say that you know all of the union workers are unskilled or lazy for no reason other than you think they dont deserve what they make. Im not talking the baggers union you were part of when you worked at the grocery store and made 5 bucks an hour (Yes that union exists). Unions have a way of weeding out non hackers and shitbags, they have regular drug testing, apprenticeships, etc. Not anyone is allowed into a high paying union position without being put through the proper steps. Im sorry if it pisses you off that you couldnt or cant get into a union for one reason or another. The fact is is that it is hard to get a well paying job like that,but we do earn our money. Yes some have it better than others, but that doesnt change that we work our asses off for what we have.

All I have to say is dont hate unions when you have no reason for it, and saying that we make to much is not a good reason. My dad fed my family as a union pipefitter and one day Ill be able to support a family being a union boilermaker. If you made 70K-150K a year with a pension and insurance to back it up you wouldnt be talking shit.

Well isn't that a fucking surprise? Conflict of interest much? Are you seriously stating that 'hey yeah we have some corrupt and greedy aspects but so does everyone else lol'. You nor the asshole in my link have provided a solution to the credit crunch that is helping to strangle the big three either, you both seem to be perfectly fine with injecting money to string them along a bit longer without a proper solution.

I would love to have some insight on this mystical weeding out process. Is it family based? Or does the guy who kisses ass and tongues balls the best get the more lucrative position? What are the proper steps? As far as working your asses off, another employee account discredits this and Im sure I could find plenty more to discredit how hard a UAW member works as well.

Ive heard plenty of good reason for union hate in this thread. They were a wonderful thing in the early 1900s when they helped kill off child labor, earned rights like maternity leave, a minimal wage, and an eight hour work day. Now they're largely nothing more than a multipart cancer helping to strangle American auto manufacturers. As far as quoting pay rates and saying we wouldn't be bitching if it were us earning- Don't be so sure. Not all Americans are morally bankrupt leeches feeding off the system.

Please.....
So your telling me that if they really did pay off the feds, they are the only company to have ever done so. So many different corporations, and individuals for that matter, "contribute" towards political partys. So this is one other thing that you cannot single out one Union for doing.

Your other argument is not even an argument. Your just another person that doesnt think they deserve what they get paid. If you made that kind of money as a UAW worker you would not be complaining. Im I missing something that making great money has become a problem.....stop hating.

:gtfo:

I'm not singling out one group, I'd eliminate them all if I could. But since it is this one with their hands out begging for money and they're responsible for bribing Congress to withhold reports of how rollover prone their new fad bricks (SUVs) were, they're the topic of discussion. This goes to give a view of these prick's character. American lives mattered much less than the public image of their new cash cows. I don't have a problem with someone earning good money as long as their skillset is equal to their pay rate. I have a big damn problem with some mongoloid being paid an exorbitant salary to do manual fucking labor when his industry comes asking me for a handout.

I still see no problem with the UAW. They did not do anything wrong. Upper managment fucked up at some point. The thing is if you eliminate the UAW the cost of cars will stay the same but the money that isnt paying employees will go right into the pockets of the same greedy people that got them into this mess. The UAW does ot need to go, the people than put them in this position do. I still havent heard any good reason why the UAW should be broken up other than they make more than you think they should

Are you foreseeing all of this in your crystal ball? Upper management fucked up for not dealing with the UAW much earlier. Both they and the cancer they created need to be eliminated. Kill the disease and treat the symptoms so to speak. Unskilled factory labor should not be more lucrative than jobs that actually take intelligence and education.

Whisper,
Apparently you know it all, and I cant argue with that. Dont worry though, one day you may have a good job and I wish you the best.

No he won't No one will, The answer to everyone's problems is pay americans less, higher more mexicans. Who cares. More profit more money the ceo can blow up his nose or on hookers. Remember its the american way.

No he won't No one will, The answer to everyone's problems is pay americans less, higher more mexicans. Who cares. More profit more money the ceo can blow up his nose or on hookers. Remember its the american way.

I know quite a few Mexicans down here, being in Texas. Several of them know the difference between using the word "hire" and "higher". Just because someone is American, that doesn't make them more intelligent or educated.

This isn't about paying Americans less, it is about paying PEOPLE what they are worth. If someone has no skills or education, they deserve LESS money. This is always how it has been in the past, except when you are in the union. If you want to earn more, you need to learn a trade or get more education and training. This isn't some new concept.

No, but it would be an immediate effect. It is so simple a cave-man could see that.



http://blog.columbusalive.com/Sensory/geico_l.jpg

Not cool man, not cool.

The Toyota Tundra assembly plant in San Antonio is full of people making trucks under the same conditions as UAW plant up north, but they get paid half as much with none of the bs that the UAW workers get. Just good, honest, bust your a$$ or you're fired workers, craking out trucks. Why cant GM, Ford, or Chrysler simply follow their lead and do the same? Oh yeah becasue the UAW is a mafia and will do whatever it takes for them to stay in power and to keep their greedy pockets full. I have co-workers who are teamsters, but no longer work in a union shop and their stories about the actions the Union bosses will take are strait from the Godfather. If the big 3 do go Chapter 11 it could finally seperate them from their parasidic Unions, but will it be worth the damage it will casue our economy? I don't know but it might be the only way for all of us to keep our hobby we all love.

The Toyota Tundra assembly plant in San Antonio is full of people making trucks under the same conditions as UAW plant up north, but they get paid half as much with none of the bs that the UAW workers get. Just good, honest, bust your a$$ or you're fired workers, craking out trucks. Why cant GM, Ford, or Chrysler simply follow their lead and do the same? Oh yeah becasue the UAW is a mafia and will do whatever it takes for them to stay in power and to keep their greedy pockets full. I have co-workers who are teamsters, but no longer work in a union shop and their stories about the actions the Union bosses will take are strait from the Godfather. If the big 3 do go Chapter 11 it could finally seperate them from their parasidic Unions, but will it be worth the damage it will casue our economy? I don't know but it might be the only way for all of us to keep our hobby we all love.


wasnt that plant idled for lack of sales? i dont recall that truck being all that great either compared to domestics.

i dont recall that truck being all that great either compared to domestics.

That's a product of design & engineering. It has nothing to do with the people who assemble the vehicles at the plant.

That's a product of design & engineering. It has nothing to do with the people who assemble the vehicles at the plant.

exactly my point. thats why id take a big three built truck offering over that junk anyday.

exactly my point. thats why id take a big three built truck offering over that junk anyday.

Same here. I will admit that I do like some imports (such as the Acura TL), I would never buy a vehicle from a foreign automaker...providing the big 3 are still around.

Same here. I will admit that I do like some imports (such as the Acura TL), I would never buy a vehicle from a foreign automaker...providing the big 3 are still around.


i know. im concerned about my next purchase. :(

The Tundra story was just a good example of non-union auto plants. This is not about which vehicle is better, it is about how union workers are brainwashed into thinking the union is the best way to do things, and how Joe Lugnut thinks his skills warrant $30 per hour. They get all defensive when people call them overpaid and unskilled. Truth hurts.

The Tundra story was just a good example of non-union auto plants. This is not about which vehicle is better, it is about how union workers are brainwashed into thinking the union is the best way to do things, and how Joe Lugnut thinks his skills warrant $30 per hour. They get all defensive when people call them overpaid and unskilled. Truth hurts.

toyota pays similar to what UAW workers get. so they also must be overpaid.

I see the Big 3 as having 2 major problems the UAW is extremely powerful and killing them on labor costs and pensions, second they concentrated too heavily on the truck & SUV segment. Both me and my brother are heavy into the lsX world bought our wives Toyota because we never wanted to have to work on them besides fluid changes. I bought a 05 F150 ( i know) and have had nothing but troubles with the tranny that dealer can never get fixed right. OH well that car is getting sold!

toyota pays similar to what UAW workers get. so they also must be overpaid.

Probably so. I work with someone who worked at that Toyota Tundra plant, he will tell you that the managers there were very strict though. People would get fired for not doing their job, or not showing up on time. They work insane hours there too. They didn't have the union parachute to save their ass if they slacked, and working overtime was mandatory.

If you made 70K-150K a year with a pension and insurance to back it up you wouldnt be talking shit.

preach on brotha!:chug:

Probably so. I work with someone who worked at that Toyota Tundra plant, he will tell you that the managers there were very strict though. People would get fired for not doing their job, or not showing up on time. They work insane hours there too. They didn't have the union parachute to save their ass if they slacked, and working overtime was mandatory.

regardless of what goes on fact is foreign carmakers pay alot more than people on here think and i dont see any bitching about their pay.

regardless of what goes on fact is foreign carmakers pay alot more than people on here think and i dont see any bitching about their pay.

Perhaps its because those companies have better leadership, smarter business models and aren't sinking faster than the Titanic.

Perhaps its because those companies have better leadership, smarter business models and aren't sinking faster than the Titanic.


still doesnt change the fact that toyota pays similar if not more than UAW workers which people keep referring to as overpaid. theyre both performing the same job so why is one overpaid and not the other?

still doesnt change the fact that toyota pays similar if not more than UAW workers which people keep referring to as overpaid. theyre both performing the same job so why is one overpaid and not the other?


They may get a similar paycheck, but it is the crazy pay for everything benefits packages that start adding up. For example, who it the largest buyer of Viagra in the U.S.? Anyone, anyone........that would be General Motors.http://general-motors.blogspot.com/2006/04/that-little-blue-pill-costs-gm-17.html Not only do the Unions expect to be paid higher wages than can be justified. They expect to get a hard on the company's dime too. You have to look at a totality of the circumstances.

still doesnt change the fact that toyota pays similar if not more than UAW workers which people keep referring to as overpaid. theyre both performing the same job so why is one overpaid and not the other?

Are you basing this on actual facts, or just assuming? Please provide proof that Toyota non-union workers earn the same as UAW, for the same position. I'd like to see if this is true, otherwise the argument isn't valid.

Are you basing this on actual facts, or just assuming? Please provide proof that Toyota non-union workers earn the same as UAW, for the same position. I'd like to see if this is true, otherwise the argument isn't valid.

I'd also like to see some documentation on this. I have some friends over at Toyota that I could call for facts.

My uncle just retired from one of the big three, I could tell you what the owners manual installer makes...BUT
So I won't. :pimp:

Yeah...you're talking about your uncle. I'm talking about high level Toyota executives. BIG difference. ;)

You don't know what my uncle did. My dad was a line worker, never said what my uncle was.

Well then...what position did he hold? I'm sure he was the VP of North American Operations. :rolleyes:

Well then...what position did he hold? I'm sure he was the VP of North American Operations. :rolleyes:


Careful now, his uncle can probably beat up your uncle Unit.:jest:

Thats just how this site works. They guy after your post could drop the f bomb every other word and call you every name in the book, but your gonna get the warning.

regardless of what goes on fact is foreign carmakers pay alot more than people on here think and i dont see any bitching about their pay.

They might, they might not. I would guess that their structuring allows for a decent pay to their workers and still manage to keep the company profitable. Toyota isn't on the verge of bankruptcy and asking for a bailout. Period.

regardless of what goes on fact is foreign carmakers pay alot more than people on here think and i dont see any bitching about their pay.

The foriegn car manufacturers are much more efficient than the UAW workers. For the same pay (which they dont get anyway but lets assume they do fo arguements sake) the foriegn makers get more work done for a given amount of time.

Thats kind of the entire union premise: we will ensure you get the maximum benefits via mob tactics while making sure you do as little as possible.

I'm not sure everyone is understanding how to compare the Toyota non-union worker pay to a UAW pay. The thing you have to remember is that on top of the high wages, the company also pays all of their health care as well as a pension. I work for a construction company that employs union workers, and the extent of their paychecks goes beyond what they bring home. We pay their wages, their pension, their annuity, their health and welfare, and contribute to a few other funds. So an hourly wage rate of about $30/hour costs us over $45/hour.

Therefore, even if Toyota pays their employees the same wages, I doubt they are paying all the other junk that goes with using Union labor. Thus, Toyota wins.

^ True.

I am also guessing that before all this mess, in order to get workers, non-union had to compete with union pays.

9000th, please just quit posting. We already have enough input from you, all of which is idiotic and immature. Next reply in this thread could lead to a disabled account, final warning. Also, please do not send me a PM to justify your case, that may also lead to a ban. I'm just tired of reading your nonsense, so please destroy your keyboard right now.

Thanks!

^^^Dont piss off the boss!! :lol:

http://i140.photobucket.com/albums/r1/brad8266/Funny%20pics/Boss_Hogg.jpg

http://i12.photobucket.com/albums/a220/1975xbody/Untitleda.jpg

uh oh... :hijack:

http://i12.photobucket.com/albums/a220/1975xbody/Untitleda.jpg

You just earned a 2-week ban for not following my warning. Next time it is permanent. If you attempt to re-register it will also be permanent.

Clueless. :eyes:

Are you basing this on actual facts, or just assuming? Please provide proof that Toyota non-union workers earn the same as UAW, for the same position. I'd like to see if this is true, otherwise the argument isn't valid.



http://www.aftermarketnews.com/Item/28594/uaw_losing_pay_edge_foreign_automakers_bonuses_boo st_wages_in_us_plants_as_detroit_car_companies_str uggle.aspx

again, im not asking which carmaker is more efficent or in better financial shape or its total compensation package. im asking why are UAW workers criticized for their pay when toyota and others pay similarly. what makes one plant because its foreign more justified or less underpaid or skilled?

They might, they might not. I would guess that their structuring allows for a decent pay to their workers and still manage to keep the company profitable. Toyota isn't on the verge of bankruptcy and asking for a bailout. Period.


no they do and its because they know damn well that toyota workers would be signing a UAW card if they tried that $14 an hr BS that some are here are claiming. fact is most if not all foreign carmakers here pay more than most think.

Back in the 60's there was a huge strike in the Japanese auto industry. The major Japanese auto manufacturers all created their own in house unions to solve worker complaints and problems. It actually worked quite well for them.

The equivelant would be if GM were to fire all the UAW guys and create a GM workers union. The employees would still be union, they'd just be in a GM owned and controlled union.

There's a page about this on Wikipedia I can't find at the moment but here's a link to a Jeremy Clarkson video that has a short blurb about it.

url=http://videos.streetfire.net/video/Clarksons-Car-Years-How_199785.htm]http://px2.sfstatic.com/handlers/GetSizedVideoThumb.ashx?id=199785&w=120[/url]Clarkson's Car Years How Japan Took Over The World (http://videos.streetfire.net/video/Clarksons-Car-Years-How_199785.htm)

If you stop and think about it it's really not that bad of an idea. The workers still get representation and the workers representatives work for the company. This enables them to be more like mediators and find the middle ground between what's good for the workers and what's good for the company.

no they do and its because they know damn well that toyota workers would be signing a UAW card if they tried that $14 an hr BS that some are here are claiming. fact is most if not all foreign carmakers here pay more than most think.

So by your own account, you are saying that the UAW is bad, like what we have been stating all along.

Since unions have this over-inflated wage. This requires other manufactures to have a near same pay scale. Though other companies have A)figured out a way to stay profitable, or B)have the option to cut their work force as to not bankrupt the company as a whole.

So by your own account, you are saying that the UAW is bad, like what we have been stating all along.

Since unions have this over-inflated wage. This requires other manufactures to have a near same pay scale. Though other companies have A)figured out a way to stay profitable, or B)have the option to cut their work force as to not bankrupt the company as a whole.


no, thats not what im saying. at least you admit that if one side is overpaid so is the other.

no they do and its because they know damn well that toyota workers would be signing a UAW card if they tried that $14 an hr BS that some are here are claiming. fact is most if not all foreign carmakers here pay more than most think.

Read my previous post. The cost of union labor goes beyond the dollars on their paychecks. If Toyota and GM both pay their laborers $25/hour, I guarantee the GM employees cost more, as GM has to also pay their pensions, annuities, health care, and other union based contributions (dues are a deduction from the employee's check, so I don't count that as a cost to GM).

I'm not sure everyone is understanding how to compare the Toyota non-union worker pay to a UAW pay. The thing you have to remember is that on top of the high wages, the company also pays all of their health care as well as a pension. I work for a construction company that employs union workers, and the extent of their paychecks goes beyond what they bring home. We pay their wages, their pension, their annuity, their health and welfare, and contribute to a few other funds. So an hourly wage rate of about $30/hour costs us over $45/hour.

Therefore, even if Toyota pays their employees the same wages, I doubt they are paying all the other junk that goes with using Union labor. Thus, Toyota wins.


i agree but that isnt my point. im seeing UAW pay rate being criticized while its foreign carmakers paying similarly getting a pass.

Read my previous post. The cost of union labor goes beyond the dollars on their paychecks. If Toyota and GM both pay their laborers $25/hour, I guarantee the GM employees cost more, as GM has to also pay their pensions, annuities, health care, and other union based contributions (dues are a deduction from the employee's check, so I don't count that as a cost to GM).


again, i addressed this already.

again, i addressed this already.

Ok then, per your quoted article:

In that instance, Toyota Motor Corp. gave workers at its largest U.S. plant bonuses of $6,000 to $8,000, boosting the average pay at the Georgetown, KY, plant to the equivalent of $30 an hour. That compares with a $27 hourly average for UAW workers, most of whom did not receive profit-sharing checks last year. Toyota would not provide a U.S. average, but said its 7,000-worker Georgetown plant is representative of its U.S. operations.

In this instance, Toyota laborers made the equivalent of $30/hour after they received a profit-sharing bonus, while UAW workers made $27. No where does it say anything about the cost of the employee to GM. I'd be willing to bet that $27/hour employee costs the company close to $40/hour. And I base this on the union rates I'm looking at on my wall (not UAW, but still union).

Union labor costs more money. If I can find their union information online, I'd be happy to calculate the overhead and everything for one employee to work one hour.

again, i addressed this already.

I know your pro-union bc you and I have had this argument before. But understand that the big 3 are paying upwards of $70 per hour when their foreign counterparts are paying $45ish. THAT IS A BIG DIFFERENCE... UAW has violently persuaded the big 3 into giving them everything they want. And my old argument still stands and I'll re-tell it for those who didn't see our last union vs. non union automaker battle

at the chrysler plant in st. louis (fenton to be exact) there were 3 UAW workers who were fired for smoking "Marijuana cigarettes" on the job. Something like 8 months later the union gives them their jobs back PLUS BACKPAY PLUS INTEREST!!! now please explain to me how situations like this (which happen all the time in unions) help a company?

and before someone says I don't know what I am talking about I worked for the utilities union for 4 summers in between college and I witnessed the laziness and overpaying jobs first hand. Unions are out-dated and are destroying our auto market. The MARKET should dictate what jobs pay, not bullying unions

In that instance, Toyota Motor Corp. gave workers at its largest U.S. plant bonuses of $6,000 to $8,000, boosting the average pay at the Georgetown, KY, plant to the equivalent of $30 an hour. That compares with a $27 hourly average for UAW workers, most of whom did not receive profit-sharing checks last year. Toyota would not provide a U.S. average, but said its 7,000-worker Georgetown plant is representative of its U.S. operations.

Like I said, this argument is not valid based on that article. The key word in that paragraph is "profit". The Toyota workers were rewarded for doing a good job, and the company making a profit. No profit, no bonus. UAW gets overpaid even though the company didn't make any profit.

Ok then, per your quoted article:



In this instance, Toyota laborers made the equivalent of $30/hour after they received a profit-sharing bonus, while UAW workers made $27. No where does it say anything about the cost of the employee to GM. I'd be willing to bet that $27/hour employee costs the company close to $40/hour. And I base this on the union rates I'm looking at on my wall (not UAW, but still union).

Union labor costs more money. If I can find their union information online, I'd be happy to calculate the overhead and everything for one employee to work one hour.


ive never argued that. i just asked. are they also overpaid?

Some of you guys are complaining about the union and its members. Aside from what they make per hr, benefits, & so forth. Its not like thats all the big 3 are about. I know theyre spending a lot on their employees but you guys are acting like if there wasnt a union then these companies wouldnt be where theyre at today. Like the top exec's are not making any money at all. Aside from telling the workers to make less or say that this person should make this and this person should make that. Why doesnt anyone say "man that VP or head guy shouldnt be making X amount of millions"on top of bonuses, and all the other allowences they get. So yes the workers can screw over the company but so can upper mgmt. No matter how you look at it theres people that bust their ass & theres people that dont. Thats what sucks about a union, theres always those people that do nothing and get paid the same as other that bust their ass. But i can tell you this if there wasnt a union i can guarantee you those workers would not be making anywhere near $30 an hour.

If there was no union then those worker would probably make abt $15 max then have to pay on their insurance. They probably wont get any kind of matching on their 401k or pension. So no matter how you look at it youre either getting screwed or screwing the company.

Like I said, this argument is not valid based on that article. The key word in that paragraph is "profit". The Toyota workers were rewarded for doing a good job, and the company making a profit. No profit, no bonus. UAW gets overpaid even though the company didn't make any profit.


so toyotas pay of $30 per hr isnt excessive while GMs of $27 is?

I know your pro-union bc you and I have had this argument before. But understand that the big 3 are paying upwards of $70 per hour when their foreign counterparts are paying $45ish. THAT IS A BIG DIFFERENCE... UAW has violently persuaded the big 3 into giving them everything they want. And my old argument still stands and I'll re-tell it for those who didn't see our last union vs. non union automaker battle

at the chrysler plant in st. louis (fenton to be exact) there were 3 UAW workers who were fired for smoking "Marijuana cigarettes" on the job. Something like 8 months later the union gives them their jobs back PLUS BACKPAY PLUS INTEREST!!! now please explain to me how situations like this (which happen all the time in unions) help a company?

and before someone says I don't know what I am talking about I worked for the utilities union for 4 summers in between college and I witnessed the laziness and overpaying jobs first hand. Unions are out-dated and are destroying our auto market. The MARKET should dictate what jobs pay, not bullying unions


im not questioning what goes on at a plant or other extra employee costs. im asking over and over again. toyotas wages are similar to UAW pay. why is it ok for them to get this while its not for UAW workers? thats all.

so toyotas pay of $30 per hr isnt excessive while GMs of $27 is?

But you are still missing it. That was $30 after the profit sharing bonus. Like Nineball posted, no profit means no bonus.

My company has the same measures in place. We have a set amount of goals to attain for the year. As we attain those goals and make the final year end numbers we get a profit sharing bonus. If we dont make the numbers we dont get a thing.

The Toyota workers for a bonus that when added back into thier normal pay and redivided into a hourly wage raised their pay to the $30 hour range.

Like was said Gm workers get almost $30 per hour normal, then with benefits, pension, healthcre, 401k match and so on it is well over that and closer to $70 per hour total when the foriegn automakers are only at the $45 range.

That is a huge difference in pay and is eventually put back into the price of the cars GM makes.

All of the Big 3 deal with this same issue all the while the foriegn automakers are not dealing with these issues.

Fact is that Toyota rewarded their employee for doing their jobs and for making a excellent built product. Those employees worked hard to make ure their company made money on each vehicle. Toyota rewarded them for it.

Another example, how many times have you seen the 0% financing offer from the Big 3? Too many to count. Heck I got it onmy 2006 GTO with no problems.

I just 2 weeks ago finally saw the foriegn automakers use it, I believe it was a Toyota commercial.

Tht says alot to me.

But you are still missing it. That was $30 after the profit sharing bonus. Like Nineball posted, no profit means no bonus.

My company has the same measures in place. We have a set amount of goals to attain for the year. As we attain those goals and make the final year end numbers we get a profit sharing bonus. If we dont make the numbers we dont get a thing.

The Toyota workers for a bonus that when added back into thier normal pay and redivided into a hourly wage raised their pay to the $30 hour range.

Like was said Gm workers get almost $30 per hour normal, then with benefits, pension, healthcre, 401k match and so on it is well over that and closer to $70 per hour total when the foriegn automakers are only at the $45 range.

That is a huge difference in pay and is eventually put back into the price of the cars GM makes.

All of the Big 3 deal with this same issue all the while the foriegn automakers are not dealing with these issues.

Fact is that Toyota rewarded their employee for doing their jobs and for making a excellent built product. Those employees worked hard to make ure their company made money on each vehicle. Toyota rewarded them for it.

Another example, how many times have you seen the 0% financing offer from the Big 3? Too many to count. Heck I got it onmy 2006 GTO with no problems.

I just 2 weeks ago finally saw the foriegn automakers use it, I believe it was a Toyota commercial.

Tht says alot to me.


still doesnt change the fact that toyota does indeed pay similarly PS or not and you and others continue to dance around my question instead of answering it. i dont know whats so hard. are they overpaid or not for doing the same job? i dont need excuses or reasons why. if i did that in defense of UAW members id get hammered and say how overpaid and lazy they are. so why doesnt that apply to foreign car makers?

Unions are great!!!!!!!




At corruption and violence!!! UAW clowns...defend the following videos please.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=E1TkxsWP13I

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=MjU8psjeHIQ&e


Oh and when reality comes knocking after the Big 3 fall, have fun pumping gas for $8/hr. The gravy train of $25/hr to do work a monkey can do will be over.

Ultamateorange I'm not sure what you're asking anymore, but if it is if they are over payed or not I hope this helps you understand where GM's profits are going and why Toyota is still making a profit.

From thetruthaboutcars.com (not rock solid but hes a reporter on the industry so he at lest has the general idea)

Quote:At Toyota’s Tundra plant in San Antonio, unskilled workers earn about $15 per hour, increasing to about $21 per hour after three years. Workers at Toyota’s new Tupelo, Mississippi plant will start at around $12 per hour, increasing to some $20 per hour after three years. If you include benefits (not an apples to apples comparison but there you go), the average Big 2.8 worker earns roughly $73 per hour.

In practice, Toyota pays bonuses to achieve parity with industry norms.

Not enough? ok

Wall Street Journal, 24 May 2006:

In San Antonio, Toyota will use non-union labor and will start its 1,600 hourly workers at $15.50 to $20.33 per hour, which will grow after three years to $21 to $25. Harbour Consulting President Ron Harbour estimates Toyota’s total hourly U.S. labor costs, with benefits, at about $35 an hour — less than half of GM’s rates.

forums.motortrend.com, 14 May 2007:

But Toyota’s newly opened Tundra plant in San Antonio started its unskilled hourly workers at about $15.50 last year. After three years, the rates will increase to about $21 an hour.

So this should give you a general idea of why GM, Ford, and D.C. employees are WAY over prices. I know you think unions are the best thing ever, and 60 years ago they saved many lives of over worked, under paid men. In todays instant information world, there is little chance of an American factory running it's employees into the ground with no pay without somone knowing about it. Unions are outdated, Period. They served their purpose, but are now nothing more than a greedy parasite of the auto industry.

^^^ good find meats

and they have raises after years of good work like should be done and if you don't work well then you either don't get a raise or you get canned. Whereas, the UAW employee's just have to work enough to meet a quota, and once "qualified" in the union there is NO INCENTIVE to work harder. Toyota gives workers an incentive to work hard, and if they make a profit they share it... As much as I hate foreign automakers they definitely have this part right and the Big 3 are way wrong

And once again Ultamateorange you are missing that Toyota can give those profit sharing checks, they are not the ones in front of the govt asking for help.

You are the once dancing around the topic, it is not a apple to applr comparision as the only reason the Toyota employees are near that pay range is because their company made money and there for the company is passing the profit back to its employees.

If the Big 3 are not making profit then no employee shuld be getting a profit sharing check.

As was posted the foriegn automakers do not pay what the Big 3 do. I almost went to the San Antonio Toyota plant, pay was just as posted starting at $15 per hour. GM starting pay is $22 or so.

When the Big become protiable then I will answer your question on the verus or comparison pay, until then it is not a good comparison as Toyota did something the Big 3 couldnt and that was make money.

you guys do know that thanks to the UAW, if a worker gets fired they basically can go sit on their ass until they find another job and they will still get paid the same thing they would have when they were working right?

I'm sure that sure couldn't hurt their performance :eyes: work hard? nah, who cares? if they fire me I will still get paid the same.

bottom line everyone.....the big 3 goes down so does america everythings pretty much built around the auto industry with no cars theres no purpose for anything we know.......dont say computers are as important either you cant drive a laptop to work



uaw sucks i dont care what anyone says they just bled shit dry uaw is the sole reason that cars cost 100s of times what they used to

granted the uaw did help workers rights in the beginning but now its all about how hard you can rape the company sure they got money as everyone would say but the wells about to dry up

japs arnt doing to good either the industries taking a hit as a whole.......... cars are designed to expensive now and to last too long leasing probably ruined the car prices too im glad companies are finally doing away with that i would never buy a car i found out was a lease that just means it wasnt takin care of i know i regularly beat the shit out of my 2007 lincoln mkx

bottom line everyone.....the big 3 goes down so does america everythings pretty much built around the auto industry with no cars theres no purpose for anything we know.......dont say computers are as important either you cant drive a laptop to work

actually the bottom line is if the big three file for bankruptcy then they can get rid of their union workers and be much more efficient

their CEO's flew up to washington (on private jets mind you) asking the government for money but they had ABSOLUTELY NO PLAN FOR THE MONEY. How do you go ask for that amount of money and have no plans for it? In other words it will just prolong the inevitable

actually the bottom line is if the big three file for bankruptcy then they can get rid of their union workers and be much more efficient

their CEO's flew up to washington (on private jets mind you) asking the government for money but they had ABSOLUTELY NO PLAN FOR THE MONEY. How do you go ask for that amount of money and have no plans for it? In other words it will just prolong the inevitable

I think that was one of the most glaringly obvious signs that ALL the upper management needed to be canned.

No plan in hand, at all. Complacency and incompetence don't even begin to describe the situation.

Ultimateorange, please quit posting. It is obvious that this discussion is beyond your grasp of understanding. Your homework is to look up the phrase "profit sharing" and learn what that means first. Next assignment is to look up "bonus" and learn what that means too. After you get a firm understanding of those rudimentary payment methods, then we *might* allow you to discuss this situation further.

Here is a summary for you:

$21 hourly plus bonuses based on PROFIT does not equal $30 hourly salary. One is based on performance, the other is just guaranteed no matter what.

If Toyota makes no PROFIT, the pay is $21/hr. GM did not make a profit, and the UAW still made $30+/hr.

Are you really too simple minded to understand that a profit sharing bonus is NOT considered a normal wage? It only exists when a company is successful, and they share their wealth with employees who did a great job. The UAW robs the Big 3, regardless if they are doing good or bad, regardless if the employee sucks or is worth it.

Please, quit posting. Your ban is coming up next. Just one more reply, any reply. I'm trying to rid this site of ignorance one person at a time.

When Toyota offered me a line maintenance position at the San Antonio plant, the top pay was $21.00/hr. They didn't mention anything about a profit share program.

Also, that $21.00/hr was the top pay for any hourly worker in the plant. Production grunts made much less.

I turned them down when I heard them referring to employees as "teammates". I've found that companies I worked for that called employees that are not what I consider ideal.

Don't get me wrong, the benefits package was nice. But the "2 min downtime average" seemed a little ridiculous to me for $21.00/hr. In layman's they expect the machinery to be repaired within 2 minutes after a failure occurs. Being in industrial repair for 13 years, I know that is not only not feasible, but silly to even suggest.

Also, since I've been screwed by 2 different unions (USW and IBEW), I really considered going to San Antonio as I will never again take a job in a union plant. I just couldn't see taking a cut in pay to do it.

The paper mill I work for now just merged with a box company and we found out that all their box plants have unions. We already have decided that we will gladly run any union rep that shows up, out of here on a pole. We get reimbursed very generously for the work that we do and don't need some union screwing that up.

I work at a party store right in the middle of the plants, in sterling heights, Mi. My hours already have been cut because more than half of our customers, which are auto workers, dont come in anymore and buy anything....Letting the companies go bankrupt affects other businesses as well....Definately joe the janitor doesnt deserve $30/hour to sweep the floor, and $90 on the weekends for overtime....No joke these guys will tell their bosses to go f*** themselves if they say "Sweep this up", because the union protects them from gettin fired...But the papers say that some new business strategies are going to be in order if they get the bailout

ive never argued that. i just asked. are they also overpaid?

The foreign plant workers aren't overpaid because their companies are making profit.

ive never argued that. i just asked. are they also overpaid?

I see what you are getting at, but in all honesty, paychecks are the best way for a company to reduce net income. Lets face it, I don't think anyone enjoys paying taxes, companies included. So a safe way to avoid paying taxes on income is to pay a portion out to your employees - the ones who made that profit possible. Thus, profit sharing. If a company is continually in the red, I think it is a pretty safe bet to say that people are overpaid (among several other possibilities). As mentioned though, you are comparing a Toyota worker's base pay + profit sharing bonus to a UAW worker's normal paycheck. Toyota loses money, the Toyota worker makes less money (no bonus).

Also, as many people that pay child support know, any bonus you earn is not used in the support calculations (at least not in Indiana) as bonuses are never guaranteed, thus cannot be used in annual earnings calculations.

The foreign plant workers aren't overpaid because their companies are making profit.

Yeah, kinda. They aren't overpaid because their base pay is much lower than the example linked. Those employees in the example made a profit-sharing based bonus, that is not guaranteed every year. It depends on how the company does. I really think this is the model GM should use after bankruptcy.

http://www.foxnews.com/politics/elections/2008/11/21/automakers-ask-bailout-paying-workers-sit/

For every car that rolls off the line, GM is paying $2600 in pensions and health care. IIRC Toyota has no pension plan and only pays $200/car for health care.

Now, that being said, it looks like GM and UAW have worked out some cuts in 2006, mostly now they're not offering pensions to new employees, and I believe the starting pay went down to ~$15 an hour.

For every car that rolls off the line, GM is paying $2600 in pensions and health care. IIRC Toyota has no pension plan and only pays $200/car for health care.

Now, that being said, it looks like GM and UAW have worked out some cuts in 2006, mostly now they're not offering pensions to new employees, and I believe the starting pay went down to ~$15 an hour.

Good point, GM pays Americans, Toyota doesn't.

Good point, GM pays Americans, Toyota doesn't.

So are they importing workers to work in their US plants?

So are they importing workers to work in their US plants?

Here comes the... "no, they are all illegal immigrants"

http://www.foxnews.com/politics/elections/2008/11/21/automakers-ask-bailout-paying-workers-sit/

:bang::bang::bang::bang::bang:

UAW sucks, period.

all i did was ask a simple question. i proved undoubtedly that toyota did indeed pay more than what UAW workers did that yr. i didnt ask how they make it or why or ask for a justification. i also showed how other foreign carmakers pay anywhere from $24 to $26 an hr. i know damn well if UAW workers received PS checks thered be people on here posting how theyre overpaid and lazy and dont deserve it.


if you choose to have selection reasonings and want to makes excuses thats ok. if you want to have a double standard fine.

I don't see why it is so hard to understand that there is a much higher cost associated with union labor as opposed to non union labor.

I dont see why it is so hard to understand that Union labor keeps families fed. When you say all union workers are lazy and overpaid you are speaking out of your ass. Every company needs changed from time to time. Eliminating an entire Union and stopping their retirement and benefits is not the way to do it. The less they end up getting paid the less money you have going towards out economy, there is another problem. Most Unions make good money and we spend accordingly. The less money made is less money spent.

This whole thing didnt get the way that it is because the UAW is overpaid. It goes a lot deeper than that.

Everyone here has made valid points to every argument, there is just no reason to badmouth the way someone makes a living.

UltimateorangeSS

Hmm lets see I worked for union GM in 1997 as a temp (A7) employee and made $17.68 an hour when the full time line workers starting out were making close to $22 per hour. If you want I can call my dad tomorrow and ask him seeing as he just retired after 30 years and was in management the entire time over union workers.

The more I think about it not only am I pretty sure that the workers make $22 per hour but they actually make more than that starting out.

You have to realize that most GM plants have not hired new employees in 5+ years. Very few plants can hire new people off of the street due to the jobs bank. Under union contract they have to offer any new positions to current employees first, then the company transfers those employees to the new plant.

Only then if the employee turns down the offer and no one else will take the position will GM hire a new person off of the street. Most will not turn the job down because if they do they lose their position in the jobs bank and in essence lose their job with GM and are out on the street jobless.

I know alot more about the GM union and how it works than you think, my mother was a union worker for GM for 25 years and my dad dealt with the union BS for 30 years.

I don't really know where lazy came into the equation. If somebody says all UAW workers are lazy they're making rash generalizations and you shouldn't let that bunch your panties.

Overpaid however...I only know one place that hires people with no experience for $14. You bust your ass, and they have the highest turnaround rate in the area. Ask any worker if they lost their job, could they find another job that pays nearly as well? If the answer is "no", theres a good chance they were overpaid.

Hugger, you said that less pay would mean less spent back into the economy. For real? You're digging that far to justify high pay? That could be said about anybody's pay, or even that we should increase welfare benefits. Further, of the UAW is so concerned about the economy, what happens when one of the nations large, iconic companies has to file bankruptcy?

Let's say starting pay is $14 an hour. How many guys do you know working there who make under $20? As it's been said, you can start paying new people whatever the hell you want when you're not hiring new people.

Although this is more or less a gangbang against the UAW, can you at least admit that the UAW is more or less a bullly nowadays?

If you want I can call my dad tomorrow and ask him seeing as he just retired after 30 years and was in management the entire time over union workers.

I know alot more about the GM union and how it works than you think, my mother was a union worker for GM for 25 years and my dad dealt with the union BS for 30 years.



You sound like a young guy with no real experience. No offense, but that's
what it sounds like to me. It's lame talking about "what my uncles says" BTW. :eyes:

This is flat out rediculous, if you read the whole thread and don't commit suicide, your going to see this scenario has already been discussed. There was a guy apparently calling relatives that worked for one of the big three, a lot of posts back, looks like they were deleted or something, now heres another guy. It's going to be real interesting to see if this guy gets bashed as hard and banned for for calling daddy and mommy to see how they should reply to the posts here.

Some forum moderator or administrator needs to close this thread, it's making the whole site look bad.

This is flat out rediculous, if you read the whole thread and don't commit suicide, your going to see this scenario has already been discussed. There was a guy apparently calling relatives that worked for one of the big three, a lot of posts back, looks like they were deleted or something, now heres another guy. It's going to be real interesting to see if this guy gets bashed as hard and banned for for calling daddy and mommy to see how they should reply to the posts here.

Some forum moderator or administrator needs to close this thread, it's making the whole site look bad.

I agree

I've been saying this for years. The UAW is as bad as organized crime. No one deserves $35 and hour to do something so simple. I had one guy actually try to defend his ridiculous wage. He was a body man for ford. He hung fenders. He was telling me how "hard" his job was, as in physically strenuous. I asked him how long it took him to learn to do it. He said just a few weeks to be good at it. I asked him why he thinks he deserves to make as much money as someone who spent 6 years in college when any jackass with 2 hands can do his job in a matter of days. Idiot.

Good point. I made 14.25 an hour working at Two Men and a Truck (moving company). That's what strenuous work is, especially the way me and my partner worked. Maybe that guy you talked to would rather carry a heavy, awkward tempur pedic mattress up three flights of stairs in the Alabama summer heat and RUN back to the truck to get the next piece. What's sad about the whole situation is I feel that wage was justifiable. I guess the Big 3 pay their employees a bit too much for the work they do. Free country though...there just will be consequences I suppose.

I've been saying this for years. The UAW is as bad as organized crime. No one deserves $35 and hour to do something so simple. I had one guy actually try to defend his ridiculous wage. He was a body man for ford. He hung fenders. He was telling me how "hard" his job was, as in physically strenuous. I asked him how long it took him to learn to do it. He said just a few weeks to be good at it. I asked him why he thinks he deserves to make as much money as someone who spent 6 years in college when any jackass with 2 hands can do his job in a matter of days.

And his reply was?

You make no sense. I spent 6 years in college, I can do my $28-hour job blind folded--YOU CAN'T.
Maybe I can't do yours.

And tell me where all these UAW factories are.....And tell me if all these UAW workers said fuck college UAW is hiring!
Did they refuse the job at the moving company for $14.25 per hour to make $31 with UAW? Well thats a damn smart move in my opinion.
Are the factories located right in the center of opprotunity where these workers can pick and choose, or did they run to the easiest, highest paying? Smart move IMO. Or were there no other jobs available?

I could care less about the UAW and their workers. It just sounds like whoever earned an education for their good paying job feels the need to shove their head up the ass of the UAW workers and try to bring them down for making more money with less education.

Personally I mind my own business, what I make pays the bills, period.

How has the UAW effected your life? Lost nights of sleep up stewing over how your hard earned education isn't pulling in thirty dollars per hour?

McDonalds at $7.50 or UAW for $35, which do you choose?

This is flat out rediculous, if you read the whole thread and don't commit suicide, your going to see this scenario has already been discussed. There was a guy apparently calling relatives that worked for one of the big three, a lot of posts back, looks like they were deleted or something, now heres another guy. It's going to be real interesting to see if this guy gets bashed as hard and banned for for calling daddy and mommy to see how they should reply to the posts here.

Some forum moderator or administrator needs to close this thread, it's making the whole site look bad.

I guess then the reading comprehension part of reading my post missed your attention.

I worked for GM, recieved a GM paycheck each week for a little over a year and was part of the UAW as you have no choice in the matter. My offer of asking my Father about the pay info was just in case UOSS or anyone else that doubts what GM UAW workers are paid.

In all reality I dont have to call though as I had personal experience in a GM plant so I know what I am talking about and how we were paid.

I guess then the reading comprehension part of reading my post missed your attention.

I worked for GM, recieved a GM paycheck each week for a little over a year and was part of the UAW as you have no choice in the matter. My offer of asking my Father about the pay info was just in case UOSS or anyone else that doubts what GM UAW workers are paid.

In all reality I dont have to call though as I had personal experience in a GM plant so I know what I am talking about and how we were paid.

And what I posted blew right over your head so fast your wig flipped.

The ONLY point I was trying to make is that there was SOMEONE ELSE earlier in the thread making the same claims you are making. ----And that is family and whatever worked for a big three company. Those posts seem to be gone, thats why I said that what you're saying sounds just like that guy. And he got bashed to hell for it.

Again, in case you missed it I am relaying a message, and that message is that someone already claimed to know what you claim to know, he got run off and is now banned for it. Figure that one out.

Because he could not comprehend and continues to run his mouth even after he stated he did not work in the plaant, his family did.

My entire family including me has or have worked for gm so in reality i dont have to go very far to get my info.

But since you want to get all defensive about it and think my "wig" flipped then i suggest you dont let your panties get in a bunch and drop sand in your vagina and i will put my wig back on then ok...

But since you want to get all defensive about it and think my "wig" flipped then i suggest you dont let your panties get in a bunch and drop sand in your vagina and i will put my wig back on then ok...

:funny:
This thread just continues to bring the immaturity out in everyone.

my whole family has worked for gm. my mom did the buy out plan they had a couple years ago and my dad is still workin there. he's gonna try to get me a job there this summer since i turn 18 but the way things are goin does not look like its gonna happen.

This is becoming the dumbest fucking thing Ive ever read.

Some forum moderator or administrator needs to close this thread, it's making the whole site look bad.

You've been here for 5 minutes. We don't need your help running LS1Tech. Thanks. ;)

Ultimate Orange - you're clueless my friend. :nod: