I'm Tired of NOT having BRAKES!!
11-21-2008, 01:56 PM
#1
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I'm Tired of NOT having BRAKES!! Hopefully someone here can help. Ever since I did my motor swap I have had problems with the brakes. Long story short I have replaced the following:
Rear
Calipers, Rotors, Pads, Flex Lines (LS1)
Front
Rotors, Pads, Flex Lines, Hard Lines, Master Cylinder, Brake Booster
The car has speed bleeders and have been thoroughly bled. The car has 12-15 lbs of Vacuum.
So here is were you come in...the brakes feel like they are at best 70% of what they used to be. With this vacuum do I need a canister? A pump? Or maybe C5 brake swap or ABS Delete??? Personally that's all I see as being left.
Any opinions or thoughts are welcome.
Rear
Calipers, Rotors, Pads, Flex Lines (LS1)
Front
Rotors, Pads, Flex Lines, Hard Lines, Master Cylinder, Brake Booster
The car has speed bleeders and have been thoroughly bled. The car has 12-15 lbs of Vacuum.
So here is were you come in...the brakes feel like they are at best 70% of what they used to be. With this vacuum do I need a canister? A pump? Or maybe C5 brake swap or ABS Delete??? Personally that's all I see as being left.
Any opinions or thoughts are welcome.
11-21-2008, 03:12 PM
#2
Hang on... I think we might be getting ahead of ourselves.
When you say it has "70%" of the brakes it did, how do you mean? Is the pedal hard, or the car just doesn't stop well? When did it start (in the midst of the changes, or are the changes because it wasn't stopping well)?
My first though is inferior pads. Everything can work as intended, but cheapo pads won't stop because they have lousy friction. Think of them like tires. All the suspnesion in the world won't help if the tires suck. And all the talent in the world wouldn't help Michael Jordan if he tried to play in dress shoes.
When you say it has "70%" of the brakes it did, how do you mean? Is the pedal hard, or the car just doesn't stop well? When did it start (in the midst of the changes, or are the changes because it wasn't stopping well)?
My first though is inferior pads. Everything can work as intended, but cheapo pads won't stop because they have lousy friction. Think of them like tires. All the suspnesion in the world won't help if the tires suck. And all the talent in the world wouldn't help Michael Jordan if he tried to play in dress shoes.
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11-21-2008, 03:31 PM
#4
Is the vacuum to the booster hooked up? . . .
Did a brake line get crimped? . . .
I assume the parts above were replaced after the motor swap? After teh brakes started to feel weak?
Have the rotors been cleaned of shipping oils . . .
Have the rotors been bed in . . .
Or is the added power exposing possilbe weakness in the OEM brakes?
Did a brake line get crimped? . . .
I assume the parts above were replaced after the motor swap? After teh brakes started to feel weak?
Have the rotors been cleaned of shipping oils . . .
Have the rotors been bed in . . .
Or is the added power exposing possilbe weakness in the OEM brakes?
11-21-2008, 04:23 PM
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First, I appreciate all the posts. I'll try to answer all your questions...
Sam...
The 70% came from two factors...one my buttometer...and two the fact that my vacuum is approx. 70% of that of a stock vehicle. It does have a hard pedal...and I do have a fairly large cam almost .600 lift...113LSA.
I have had a dragging caliper (hence the new rear capilers) and a leaky Master and or Booster. With all the replacement I have seen improvement but still not where I like it. Immediately after the swap I couldn't even nose dive the car...
Black...
I can only assume you are referring to the ABS Module...and yes that has been bled as to spec.
Xsta...
Yes the booster is hooked up...replaced all suspicious brake lines...all have been conformed as "good"...no problem getting fluid to the calipers. Rotor cleaned...
Something note worthy I have hawk pads/brembo rotors on rear and cheapo pads/rotors on front...I know backwards right?...but the front should still be in good condition. Worked ok before?
Sam...
The 70% came from two factors...one my buttometer...and two the fact that my vacuum is approx. 70% of that of a stock vehicle. It does have a hard pedal...and I do have a fairly large cam almost .600 lift...113LSA.
I have had a dragging caliper (hence the new rear capilers) and a leaky Master and or Booster. With all the replacement I have seen improvement but still not where I like it. Immediately after the swap I couldn't even nose dive the car...
Black...
I can only assume you are referring to the ABS Module...and yes that has been bled as to spec.
Xsta...
Yes the booster is hooked up...replaced all suspicious brake lines...all have been conformed as "good"...no problem getting fluid to the calipers. Rotor cleaned...
Something note worthy I have hawk pads/brembo rotors on rear and cheapo pads/rotors on front...I know backwards right?...but the front should still be in good condition. Worked ok before?
11-21-2008, 04:30 PM
#6
This is very, very easy to solve now.
The pedal is harder because of your cam. The booster is not working as effectively, and you can't get the same kind of force on the pads as you got before. You are losing some of your mechanical advantage that power brakes give you. That means less pressure being applied to the calipers.
The cheap pads don't have great stopping power on their own anyway, and those coupled with the loss in boost and force applied to the pads via the hydraulics is killing you. Better pads would help, for sure. In fact this is a case I'd recommend HP Plus compound for their stronger power and higher initial bite. But you also need to give you booster some more help. Get a vacuum canister or a pump.
Your problem is not really mechanical. It's a lack of vacuum to the booster, and crappy pads. Together they are giving you fits.
The pedal is harder because of your cam. The booster is not working as effectively, and you can't get the same kind of force on the pads as you got before. You are losing some of your mechanical advantage that power brakes give you. That means less pressure being applied to the calipers.
The cheap pads don't have great stopping power on their own anyway, and those coupled with the loss in boost and force applied to the pads via the hydraulics is killing you. Better pads would help, for sure. In fact this is a case I'd recommend HP Plus compound for their stronger power and higher initial bite. But you also need to give you booster some more help. Get a vacuum canister or a pump.
Your problem is not really mechanical. It's a lack of vacuum to the booster, and crappy pads. Together they are giving you fits.
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Check out our KONI prices, our Master Cylinder Brace, and new Xtracker Hub/wheel bearing upgrade kits!
11-21-2008, 04:55 PM
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This is very, very easy to solve now.
The pedal is harder because of your cam. The booster is not working as effectively, and you can't get the same kind of force on the pads as you got before. You are losing some of your mechanical advantage that power brakes give you. That means less pressure being applied to the calipers.
The cheap pads don't have great stopping power on their own anyway, and those coupled with the loss in boost and force applied to the pads via the hydraulics is killing you. Better pads would help, for sure. In fact this is a case I'd recommend HP Plus compound for their stronger power and higher initial bite. But you also need to give you booster some more help. Get a vacuum canister or a pump.
Your problem is not really mechanical. It's a lack of vacuum to the booster, and crappy pads. Together they are giving you fits.
The pedal is harder because of your cam. The booster is not working as effectively, and you can't get the same kind of force on the pads as you got before. You are losing some of your mechanical advantage that power brakes give you. That means less pressure being applied to the calipers.
The cheap pads don't have great stopping power on their own anyway, and those coupled with the loss in boost and force applied to the pads via the hydraulics is killing you. Better pads would help, for sure. In fact this is a case I'd recommend HP Plus compound for their stronger power and higher initial bite. But you also need to give you booster some more help. Get a vacuum canister or a pump.
Your problem is not really mechanical. It's a lack of vacuum to the booster, and crappy pads. Together they are giving you fits.
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11-21-2008, 05:00 PM
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This is what I was leaning towards...which one would be beneficial...the pump or the reservoir? I know a vacuum reservoir only helps if your vacuum is within a certain range...anything else and a pump is needed.
11-21-2008, 05:21 PM
#10
Well a pump makes sure you have vacuum all the time. A reservoir can only store what you make, and you might not make enough soon enough under all conditions.
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11-21-2008, 07:36 PM
#12
To verify it is the lack of vacuum causing this, all you have to do is take the car up to speed in first or second gear, lift off the throttle & then try the brakes. The high engine rpm will give you a lot of vacuum (between 20 & 30in) & will allow you to verify this is the problem. A big cam usually only hurts the braking power when the engine is near idle speeds.
If it still wont stop, you likely have a different problem.
If it still wont stop, you likely have a different problem.
11-21-2008, 08:17 PM
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I have noticed when I get up to about 40 and stop suddenly I have alot more braking power than say a stop light or a idle....
Sounds like you guys may have hit the nail on the head...
Sounds like you guys may have hit the nail on the head...
01-12-2009, 03:52 PM
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The hard lines were very inexpensive ($20 at the most for all). I got steel replacement lines and bent them myself. Brake booster was about $80 (factory replacement)...master cylinder about the same...and yes I'm using the stock abs unit.
For me the reservoir worked well...it gave me the extra "shot" of vacuum I was looking for. I think of it as a capacitor...it only stores what you make...then save it for times of low vacuum...
For me the reservoir worked well...it gave me the extra "shot" of vacuum I was looking for. I think of it as a capacitor...it only stores what you make...then save it for times of low vacuum...
02-24-2009, 12:21 PM
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Got comp cam reservoir from Summit...actually I think they are on sale right now. Originally I wanted to mount mine on the firewall between the intake and the brake booster. Unfortunately when I got the reservoir it didn't quite fit. I actually ended up putting mine between the fusebox and the headlight (since mine is a WS6). Remember that you want the least distance for the air to travel.
There is a guy on LS1LT1.com that thinks he can mount his in the under driver side wheel well....I'm not sure if it would work...If it does work out I may be moving mine.
http://www.ls1lt1.com/forum/showthread.php?t=22338
There is a guy on LS1LT1.com that thinks he can mount his in the under driver side wheel well....I'm not sure if it would work...If it does work out I may be moving mine.
http://www.ls1lt1.com/forum/showthread.php?t=22338
02-24-2009, 01:07 PM
#19
The hard lines were very inexpensive ($20 at the most for all). I got steel replacement lines and bent them myself. Brake booster was about $80 (factory replacement)...master cylinder about the same...and yes I'm using the stock abs unit.
For me the reservoir worked well...it gave me the extra "shot" of vacuum I was looking for. I think of it as a capacitor...it only stores what you make...then save it for times of low vacuum...
For me the reservoir worked well...it gave me the extra "shot" of vacuum I was looking for. I think of it as a capacitor...it only stores what you make...then save it for times of low vacuum...
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