Automotive News, Media & Press - GM says it "disappointed" and "betrayed" consumers

Here is the article from Reuters:

DETROIT (Reuters) - General Motors Corp on Monday unveiled an unusually frank advertisement acknowledging it had "disappointed" and sometimes even "betrayed" American consumers as it lobbies to clinch the federal aid it needs to stay afloat into next month.

The print advertisement marked a sharp break from GM's public stance of just several weeks ago when it sought to justify its bid for a U.S. government on the grounds that the credit crisis had undermined its business in ways executives could never have foreseen.

It also came as Chief Executive Rick Wagoner, who has led the automaker since 2000, faces new pressure to step aside as GM seeks up to $18 billion in federal funding.

"While we're still the U.S. sales leader, we acknowledge we have disappointed you," the ad said. "At times we violated your trust by letting our quality fall below industry standards and our designs became lackluster."

The unsigned open letter, entitled "GM's Commitment to the American People" ran in the trade journal Automotive News, which is widely read by industry executives, lobbyists and other insiders.

In the ad, GM admits to other strategic missteps analysts and critics have said hastened its recent decline.

"We have proliferated our brands and dealer network to the point where we lost adequate focus on the core U.S. market," the ad said. "We also biased our product mix toward pick-up trucks and SUVs."

But GM also says in the ad that it was hit by forces beyond its control as it tried to complete a restructuring earlier this year.

"Despite moving quickly to reduce our planned spending by over $20 billion, GM finds itself precariously and frighteningly close to running out of cash," the ad says.

A failure of GM would deepen the current recession and put "millions of job at risk," according to the ad, which also highlights the automaker's pledged restructuring and intention to begin repaying taxpayers in 2011.

GM spokesman Greg Martin said the ad was an attempt by the automaker to present "a pledge directly to the public."

"We believe we need to deliver this commitment unfiltered since quite a bit of media commentary has not kept pace with our actual progress to transform the company," Martin said.

Senate Banking Committee Chairman Christopher Dodd, a Democrat from Connecticut who is central to the effort to craft an auto bailout bill, on Sunday said GM should replace Wagoner.

GM says Wagoner has the support of the company's board.

(Reporting by Kevin Krolicki, editing by Dave Zimmerman)

http://www.ls1tech.com/forums/album.php?albumid=1101&pictureid=6324

LINK TO GM PRINT AD:

http://www.autonews.com/assets/PDF/CA59166128.PDF

http://www.ls1tech.com/forums/picture.php?albumid=1101&pictureid=6324

Imagine that...GM actually sacking up and taking responsibility. Now THAT'S a concept.

i agree with the point that wagoner has to go ....if he worked in that position in any other fortune 500 company and there stock went to hell he would be gone also...

i say let 'em go under. if a mom & pop bakery can't make it, nobody bails them out...why should we bail out GM? i don't give a f*ck if i love their vehicles or not, i'm not paying them to re-learn how to run a business and appeal to the appropriate market segments.

great. theyve admitted something people have known for a long time. now WTF are they going to do about it?

i say let 'em go under. if a mom & pop bakery can't make it, nobody bails them out...why should we bail out GM? i don't give a f*ck if i love their vehicles or not, i'm not paying them to re-learn how to run a business and appeal to the appropriate market segments.

if ma and pop employed nearly 2.5million people (like GM does with its companies and affiliates), the government would probably help them out from going under too. 1 in 10 american jobs revolves around the car business. Imagine what would happen to the unemployment rate if the big three went down...

if ma and pop employed nearly 2.5million people (like GM does with its companies and affiliates), the government would probably help them out from going under too. 1 in 10 american jobs revolves around the car business. Imagine what would happen to the unemployment rate if the big three went down...

yeah i know that would suck, and i'm sure i'd sing a different tune if i worked directly for GM, BUT i've been layed off, i know exactly how bad it sucks. i'm just saying, it's not John Q. Taxpayer's responsibility to keep GM afloat. it's THEIR responsibility to make a decent quality vehicle at an affordable price that meets the needs of a given demographic...and they failed. i LOVE their trucks, but i straight up can't afford one, at least not a decent one. a f*cking RCSB 4x4 stripped is still over $25K, at least around here. many other people are the same way.

toyota and honda have been making fuel-efficient, long-lasting vehicles for two decades while GM pushed it's gas-guzzling suburbans and extended cab pickups to soccer moms and ranchers...now they're wondering why they can't keep up with the tree-huggers' demands and why nobody's is buying a $55K Denali pickup to drive around the big city.

it's rediculous that ANY tax-paying american should have to foot the bill for the general's mistake(s). i don't want them to go out, i don't want all those people to lose their jobs, but i sure as hell am not going to help pay for it. i'm sure as hell not getting anything in return. i bet all the people that went out and financed 100% of their $40K+ cars/trucks aren't getting "thank you" cards in the mail either.

...and what does GM do? they replaced the failed GTO with the G8...nice car, but do you guys really think it should exist? i mean, REALLY? Pontiac, Saturn, GMC...all dead weight. they need to cut out the fat and build one, maybe two, brands and build what people buy. quit building one car for soccer moms, one car for yuppies with small peckers, one hybrid, 6 different 4-door sedans built off the same platform with the same engines, two identical truck brands (ond having a different grill and different emblems of course), etc etc etc....it's STUPID, straight up. they need to pull their heads out of their asses and completely re-think their business model because it's OBVIOUSLY no good.

it sucks all those people are going to lose their jobs, but this is and has been pulic information for a long time. you KNOW the people within the company knew this was coming before CNN found out. If they haven't been looking for jobs since this started, that's their fault. i always, ALWAYS, have a back-up job at all times. i want to know that if i lose my job i have somewhere to go the following monday. if my company were begging for help from unlce sam, i'd be hitting the streets ASAP.

yeah i know that would suck, and i'm sure i'd sing a different tune if i worked directly for GM, BUT i've been layed off, i know exactly how bad it sucks. i'm just saying, it's not John Q. Taxpayer's responsibility to keep GM afloat. it's THEIR responsibility to make a decent quality vehicle at an affordable price that meets the needs of a given demographic...and they failed. i LOVE their trucks, but i straight up can't afford one, at least not a decent one. a f*cking RCSB 4x4 stripped is still over $25K, at least around here. many other people are the same way.

toyota and honda have been making fuel-efficient, long-lasting vehicles for two decades while GM pushed it's gas-guzzling suburbans and extended cab pickups to soccer moms and ranchers...now they're wondering why they can't keep up with the tree-huggers' demands and why nobody's is buying a $55K Denali pickup to drive around the big city.

it's rediculous that ANY tax-paying american should have to foot the bill for the general's mistake(s). i don't want them to go out, i don't want all those people to lose their jobs, but i sure as hell am not going to help pay for it. i'm sure as hell not getting anything in return. i bet all the people that went out and financed 100% of their $40K+ cars/trucks aren't getting "thank you" cards in the mail either.

...and what does GM do? they replaced the failed GTO with the G8...nice car, but do you guys really think it should exist? i mean, REALLY? Pontiac, Saturn, GMC...all dead weight. they need to cut out the fat and build one, maybe two, brands and build what people buy. quit building one car for soccer moms, one car for yuppies with small peckers, one hybrid, 6 different 4-door sedans built off the same platform with the same engines, two identical truck brands (ond having a different grill and different emblems of course), etc etc etc....it's STUPID, straight up. they need to pull their heads out of their asses and completely re-think their business model because it's OBVIOUSLY no good.

it sucks all those people are going to lose their jobs, but this is and has been pulic information for a long time. you KNOW the people within the company knew this was coming before CNN found out. If they haven't been looking for jobs since this started, that's their fault. i always, ALWAYS, have a back-up job at all times. i want to know that if i lose my job i have somewhere to go the following monday. if my company were begging for help from unlce sam, i'd be hitting the streets ASAP.

+1

Just think of how many cars the General would have sold if they had spent just the advertising money from those worthless brands on Chevy, Buick, and Cadillac! Hummer ads at this point in time are wasted money.

GM needs to get their shit together, or I may just go back to being a Ford and Nissan fan....:bang:

i'll never drive anything but a GM product...as far as 4-wheeled vehicles go...(with the exception of the CIVIC i'm about to buy)...but beyond the sale price and taxes, i'm not giving GM any more of my money.

It's just GM jumping through hoops. They'll say whatever it takes for them to get their bailout/loan/whatever.

Damn straight they did. I would have probably an '05 Z/28 if they had kept making them.

W

i say let 'em go under. if a mom & pop bakery can't make it, nobody bails them out...why should we bail out GM?The 5 recently unemployed bakers/cashiers at the bakery won't crowd the unemployment office all that much more nor drain too much unemployment insurances funds. Though it still sucks that the bakery had to close. :nono:
But the 3 million people currently employed by or employed by those who are currently employed by or are simply directly or indirectly connected with GM somehow certainly will.
That's why.

It kills me what that company has done. I have been a GM man all my life and have owned nothing but GM. I feel they turned their back on me years ago. I still want them around, I just want them to get their sh*t together.

A giant step - We're sorry we fXXXXX everyone in the past. Now, lets all hold hands and walk together.

Jakes Dad

I told my girlfriend the same thing after I fucked her sister.

Guess what I did after she took me back?

Fucked her sister.

If GM went out, got itself a new board that make moves to turn the company around I might buy this line. With Rick "The Stock Price Drops Every Year" Wagoner and Bob "I Fly a Helicopter To Work" Lutz still running the show I'm not buying change.

:rotflmao::rotflmao::rotflmao:I told my girlfriend the same thing after I fucked her sister.

Guess what I did after she took me back?

Fucked her sister.

If GM went out, got itself a new board that make moves to turn the company around I might buy this line. With Rick "The Stock Price Drops Every Year" Wagoner and Bob "I Fly a Helicopter To Work" Lutz still running the show I'm not buying change.

I agree with 2000_SS, Toyota and Honda were ridiculed for not jumping on the truck bandwagon sooner. But these foreign carmakers damn near perfected the way they run their business and make their cars not trucks. They stuck with their bread and butter and listened to what the general public was looking for, affordable transportation, quality and good resale value.
Now a part of business is forcasting and if the big 3 couldn't forsee the possibility of a slowdown in the economy, high gas prices etc. then I would say they failed in their business model and it shouldn't be up to the taxpayers to bail them out! The big 3 need a new infusion of ideas and they need to work harder on Toyota's model of lean manufacturing. A very good friend of mine that worked for Ford told me that they tried the lean manufacturing process and were warned that it wouldn't work by the foreign company that was teaching it to them. Why? Because and I quote "...you have to implement the whole program not pick and choose what you want to. You have to commit to the lean program all the way or it will not work..." Of course Ford chose to try and implement what they wanted to and it hasn't worked so far!
This is business plain and simple; if you don't sell a product or service that people want, then they will not buy it. I think that we are getting 'big brother' too involved in our life's and business! At the end of the day is this what capitalism is all about?

speaking of resale, check this out: my dad goes and buys a '08 Colorado ext cab 2x4, pretty well-optioned. i told him it was a piece of shit and he wasted his money (i hate coloradoes). it serves no purpose other than transportation; i.e. it's not 4x4, not a V8 (or big V6), can't tow, etc...

SO, when they have their big 'whatever' sale literally 2 weeks later, dad goes to trade his truck for one IDENTICAL to his, only 4x4 and totally loaded. His colorado literally had 930 miles on it, still had plastic on the carpet, and you absolutly could not tell it was ever owned by anybody. he payed over $22K for it new....anyway, he takes it back to the very same dealership he bought it from and they offer him $8,000 for it as a trade-in on another p.o.s. colorado.

needless to say he was furious and came home in a rage...when he calmed down he finally told me i was right - that's a first, a real milestone in our house, but nonetheless....talk about shitty resale (and a shitty dealership). you can get $8K for a '00 honda civic with under 100K miles as long as it runs, i know, i'm looking for one for a beater.

i just dont want them to go down...becasue i wanna see the new camaro prowling!

You don't want them to go under because it would bring the rest of America with them.

I can tell you this; if anyone wants to trade for a nice low mileage 06 Toyota RAV4 for their same year full size GM truck or Avalanche I have one waiting for them! It is by far the worse POS vehicle I have owned in years including other than GM vehicles. Yeh, Toyota is so superior my ass! I buy an low mileage import every so often and I'm still waiting to be impressed. In the mean time I drive my same 115k 02 GMC thet I bought new that drives just as it did when it was new!

please this doesn't mean crap. You will say ANYTHING to get some of the meat on the table when you're starving.

Even if you dont like GM lots of people will loose jobs and we will no longer see any new camaros or corvettes, and products like the LSx block are a direct evolution of GMPP racing pedigree will be gone as well

I haven't been totally pleased with all of GM's vehicles over the last few years and I don't know squat about running a huge corporation. But I'm always surprised when people want to talk about how Honda and Toyota make such better quality vehicles. If the big three weren't making trucks and SUVs who would be? Not all of us want small 4 banger cars and some of us need the capacity of a truck or SUV. I was a Honda tech for 3 years and I've worked for GM dealers as well as independants. Wanna know why Hondas "last so long"? Honda owners care about maintenance more than GM owners. I've personally owned 3 GM trucks with 350 engines that had over 200,000 miles and ran great still. I've also seen civics with 50,000 miles that were beat to hell. My service writer at the Honda dealer had an 03 Grand Am that needed head gaskets around 20k miles, but what about the 04 Accord that had the oil pump pick up fall off and destroy the engine at less than 5,000 miles? Often times when I hear people complain about american cars sucking compared to Hondas and Toyotas they are talking about 20 yr old neglected domestics compared to 5 year old well maintain imports.

Anyway sorry for the rant, and sorry if I got off topic, but as an automotive tech I get tired of people blaming car companies for the fact that they (the owners) are too cheap to maintain their vehicles and I just needed to vent............And plus I just like to hear myself type:D

^^^ I'm going to agree with you on those points. My wife has an 06 Civic with about 30K on it. I'm not impressed whatsoever with that car. It is the most uncomfortable car i've ever been in. I'm 6' 6" so yeah its a little small but driving the camaro is far superior.

as tech myself i agree 100%

please this doesn't mean crap. You will say ANYTHING to get some of the meat on the table when you're starving.

Yep. That's exactly what they are doing.

The money isn't going to fix the problem. Its only going to delay the inevitable. What do they think that "whala" all the sudden this money is going to give them new ideas, concepts, better money management, time management, cheaper wages/pentions, etc. ?? :jest:

Let all 3 fail!

There are realistic reasons for any bailout is a good idea, often times it is cheaper to give GM the money now rather and keep them afloat, rather than having to give all their workers unemployment and welfare once the company goes under. Either way the tax pay pays in the end.

The problem with GM is, it is regressing. Look at the JD Power Reliability ranks for say 2003 or 2004 compared with the ones for 2007 and 2008. Caddy and Buick are up at the top, kicking ass and taking names, but Pontiac and Chevy are getting worse. It seems for every good product Chevy brings out, like the Malibu, they take two steps backwards.

GM cannot survive as the worldwide leader of automotive if it does not pull its head out of its ass and do well in the small and midsized car segement. GM can survive as a luxury brand (Caddy), performance (the Vette and other LS products) and trucks (Silverado, Tahoe, etc), but if thats all it sells then it has to become smaller.

Until GM can convince the world that they have a plan to ensure that their reliability ratings go up and they market good small and midsized cars (good quality cars, none of this Aveo crap) I don't want them getting any money.

There are realistic reasons for any bailout is a good idea, often times it is cheaper to give GM the money now rather and keep them afloat, rather than having to give all their workers unemployment and welfare once the company goes under. Either way the tax pay pays in the end.

The problem with GM is, it is regressing. Look at the JD Power Reliability ranks for say 2003 or 2004 compared with the ones for 2007 and 2008. Caddy and Buick are up at the top, kicking ass and taking names, but Pontiac and Chevy are getting worse. It seems for every good product Chevy brings out, like the Malibu, they take two steps backwards.

GM cannot survive as the worldwide leader of automotive if it does not pull its head out of its ass and do well in the small and midsized car segement. GM can survive as a luxury brand (Caddy), performance (the Vette and other LS products) and trucks (Silverado, Tahoe, etc), but if thats all it sells then it has to become smaller.

Until GM can convince the world that they have a plan to ensure that their reliability ratings go up and they market good small and midsized cars (good quality cars, none of this Aveo crap) I don't want them getting any money.

I'd have to agree that the small cars could be an area where they could bring it up a notch. Trucks good! Malibu and its sister platforms good, LSX engined vehicles great! A ten item hit list for each vehicle line and its largest complaint or warrantee item would address a lot of the quality perception issues. Having been an Engineer for American and a Japanese OEM you see the bad and the good of each one and theres not much of a difference. GM has never been appreciated for innovation even when they are leading edge; ala: Turbocharged cars in the 60's, Grand nationals in the 80's, hydroformed frames, LSx series of Engines, Onstar etc.

I have also seen as some of the techs above mentioned completely deficient areas on Japanese, European and Korean vehicles that are "rarely criticized".
You hear this, even on this board "I will never buy an American vehicle again". You never hear "I will never buy a Korean vehicle again" even after all of the junk Hyundais they dumped off on our shores in the 80's and 90's, Hell they still suck, but they have a 100k warrentee! Same appies to Mitus and Subs. You don't see any old ones because they are crap.
Not sure what the psychology of this is: blast an American vehicle when they have issues and ignore the deficiencies in a Foreign built vehicle. I would think the reverse would be true.

Either way these Foreign companies don't supply us with jobs even approaching the big three and our American supplier base! If they want to make money off of us they better employ us and not just end point Assembly plants which is just lip service anyway! Just like Japan and China, If you want to sell to them you better move your factory there!

They need to fail.. and then get rid of the useless UAW

No more of this unskilled labor, assembling a car in an assembly line w/ergonomic smart tools, getting paid wages many skilled laborers don't make.

They need to fail.. and then get rid of the useless UAW

No more of this unskilled labor, assembling a car in an assembly line w/ergonomic smart tools, getting paid wages many skilled laborers don't make.

That’s the 3 million job question. How do you replace 3 million jobs with pittance that the Foreign manufacturers have on our shores, while our companies are restructuring.

Even though I currently work in an aerospace division of my company, other divisions supply sub component parts to the big three. We supply very few parts to the Foreign manufacturers, because they buy from their own back in Japan, Germany or Korea.

If the big three American manufacturers do go done it will bring the Foreign car manufacturers with them. The job losses will be so great no one will be buying cars including Foreign ones.

They need to fail..Translation: the U.S. needs to fail.
That's essentially what you're saying because that's EXACTLY what's going to happen if the U.S. auto industry is forced into a bankruptcy/restructuring.
This could ultimately lead to what will someday be referred to as THE END of life in the U.S. as it was once known.
Such a shame. :nono:

That’s the 3 million job question. How do you replace 3 million jobs with pittance that the Foreign manufacturers have on our shores, while our companies are restructuring.

Even though I currently work in an aerospace division of my company, other divisions supply sub component parts to the big three. We supply very few parts to the Foreign manufacturers, because they buy from their own back in Japan, Germany or Korea.

If the big three American manufacturers do go done it will bring the Foreign car manufacturers with them. The job losses will be so great no one will be buying cars including Foreign ones.Exactly.
It's a lose lose situation no matter how you slice it.

Imagine that...GM actually sacking up and taking responsibility. Now THAT'S a concept.

Swing on Toyota's nuts some more. :eyes: You piss me off sometimes doing that all over the place. You like them so much, get a Supra and get off LS1tech.


GM has to say a lot of BS to get the idiots in congress to push this thing through. I've been a republican my whole life, but not anymore. They're F*cking ignorant idiots about this whole issue. :eyes: The automakers have been restructuring all year, cutting positions and jobs and making moves to make profitability easier. They made shitty products in the late 70s and throughout the 80s, but started a turnaround in the 90s and since 2000, they've been making the best products in their (GM at least, I really don't know crap about ford or chrysler) 100 year history. Their showrooms now are full of products that according to magazines that are as import-biased as Meent and 3/4 of this thread here are equal to or BETTER than their foreign competition. Malibu anyone?
The German press admits that the CTS-V is better than the M-series or AMG. Honestly, anyone who doesn't have their head up their ass has sat up in the last eight years and taken notice that GM has made a turnaround. They're on the right track, with Chevy having only .5 MPG less on average than Honda fleet-wise even including all their industrial vehicles and trucks. Chevy is the THIRD MOST FUEL EFFICIENT AUTOMAKER after Mini and Honda, and when you look at the vehicles each of the three makes and how close Chevy is, you realize how far along GM really is.

GM, at least, is on the right track. So what if they need some cash now to keep going. They'll pay it back and become profitable with ease in the next few years, especially since the UAW is being/has been broken. If you don't think so, I really think you ought to pull your head outta your ass.

Not to attack anyone, but this issue REALLY pisses me off.

They need to fail.. and then get rid of the useless UAW

No more of this unskilled labor, assembling a car in an assembly line w/ergonomic smart tools, getting paid wages many skilled laborers don't make.



Yours is the most un-informed, ignorant statement that I have read on this site; and you're a moderator?

I am educated & have done business in several Countries. If you want to "blame" anyone for the current state of the auto Industry & actually the electronics manufacturing Industry you can start w/ the US Governments' plan to re-build Japan after WWII. It was the beginning of giving away US trade secrets & off shore manufacturing. Japanese auto workers wear uniforms because McGarther demanded that they do so while training them.
This opened the door to US Corporations manufacturing outside of the US.

Congress is bashing Detroit while at the same time handing out Billions to Foreign Countries. Let's get Congress to start collecting Foreign debts owed the US by other Countries & stop all hand outs to Foreign Contries. It's far beyond time for us to take care of our own people. Don't even get me started on Iraq.

This Country's biggest problem is that the US Government's attention is focused abroad under the veil of "National Security" & "Foreign policy." It's far, far beyond time to take care of our own. Petty arguments about unions & wage untruths is pointless. Us Auto workers do not make high wages. The media has relied on your ignorance to beleive it. Had it been War time, this would be known as propaganda. The average is approx. $28/hr, which is $4 to $5/hr greater than Foreign Auto Companies.

Everyone in this Country deserves the opportunity to earn a meaningful income. Giving away our manufacturing is what has weakend this Country....slowly, over the past 60 years & it will continue unless we start focusing on taking care of our own people.

^^ I agree people have a right to earn a meaningful income, but someone who takes a bolt, and screw's it in on the chassis all day long I can't see that earning 30+ an hour to do.

A freaking monkey knows the round tube goes in the round hole.

Another edit if you look during WW2 with FDR as president it was a democratic controlled congress and president. Just an observation.

^^Wait a min?......plant workers make an average of $28/hour?!!!!! As a tech the average wage is probably $20. Maybe $22 for people with more than 10yrs experience. It takes way more skill and training and mental aptitude to become a good technician. But......I figured out a long time ago that being a tech is a lowsy paying career.

^^Looked it up top pay for hourly is 27 bucks an hour. Still... putting bolts in holes..

^^Looked it up top pay for hourly is 27 bucks an hour. Still... putting bolts in holes..



As I stated, Everyone has the right to earn a meaningful wage. Good for them for landing a job that helps to support their Families. Further, $20-$30 is hardly a wage worth arguing against. It's not that much money.

My greatest isuue is with the notion that only the most highly skilled & highly educated people are worthy of earning a stable living. So, I ask what are we to do with those who lack the ability & or education? Not everyone has the talent, intelligence or opportunity to earn a reasonable living according to modern standards. All of these people are entitled to earn enough to support themselves. There's no reason that we as a so called "Great Country" can't take care of each other.

Yours is the most un-informed, ignorant statement that I have read on this site; and you're a moderator?

I am educated & have done business in several Countries. If you want to "blame" anyone for the current state of the auto Industry & actually the electronics manufacturing Industry you can start w/ the US Governments' plan to re-build Japan after WWII. It was the beginning of giving away US trade secrets & off shore manufacturing. Japanese auto workers wear uniforms because McGarther demanded that they do so while training them.
This opened the door to US Corporations manufacturing outside of the US.

Congress is bashing Detroit while at the same time handing out Billions to Foreign Countries. Let's get Congress to start collecting Foreign debts owed the US by other Countries & stop all hand outs to Foreign Contries. It's far beyond time for us to take care of our own people. Don't even get me started on Iraq.

This Country's biggest problem is that the US Government's attention is focused abroad under the veil of "National Security" & "Foreign policy." It's far, far beyond time to take care of our own.Excellent points.
People are so quick to state that "let them fail, it's entirely their own faults, it is not the government's responsibility to help these corporations because that is NOT what the principles of capitalism are about" etc. etc. yet guess what played a huge role in getting some of these corporations into the messes they're in in the first place?
That's right, certain government policies.
So wouldn't it now make sense that it is in fact their responsibility to help get those negativity affected by such heinous administrative acts/policies out of this bind they're in?
Ya can't have it both ways.

As I stated, Everyone has the right to earn a meaningful wage. Good for them for landing a job that helps to support their Families. Further, $20-$30 is hardly a wage worth arguing against. It's not that much money.

My greatest isuue is with the notion that only the most highly skilled & highly educated people are worthy of earning a stable living. So, I ask what are we to do with those who lack the ability & or education? Not everyone has the talent, intelligence or opportunity to earn a reasonable living according to modern standards. All of these people are entitled to earn enough to support themselves. There's no reason that we as a so called "Great Country" can't take care of each other.


What in the world are you talking about? You are saying that people who lack ability and or education should make just as much as those who work hard and make sacrifices to gain an education and strong knowledge of their field? So I guess burger flippers deserve to make the same as doctors? If that were the case then what would motivate people to better themselves? I agree that $20-$30/hr is not much these days. But for an average factory worker to make $25/hr when I as a technician who has spent thousands on school, I do everything I can to improve my skills, and I work in a more mentally challenging environment, I make $20/hr on flat rate. Last year I was working 60hrs/wk to earn 40. And that is not do to my lack of skill. Also as a technician the benefits sucks. I'm sure these factory workers making more than I do are getting much better benefits, and only working 40hrs to earn 40hrs. I do think that everyone with a good work ethic deserves to be able to support themselves and a family. But I'm just saying.......close to $30/hr to work in a factory when so many other higher skilled jobs pay less and have less benefits...it's pretty crazy to me.

^^^ Exactly the hourly rate with benefits included for these employees is almost 80 bucks an hour. With them making 30/hr doing super easy jobs.. I make half that an hour working for an insurance company having to handle injuries, doctor offices, all kinds of stupid people. I still am able to pay my bills comfortably and own a house.

yeah i make a hair under $16/hr....those people making $30/hr+ at companies that can't maintain a customer base in its own country of operations aren't hurting too bad. i don't want them to lose thier jobs or suffer, but i don't want to bail out a failing business i own no stock in and will see no return from. "fuck them." ...there, i said it. flame on if you want, call me ignorant, but i'm a VERY skilled laborer and i don't make jack, yet i budget my earnings, save when i can, and invest what's left, and although i don't have MUCH to show for it, i'd be ok if i lost my job. those people should have done the same. 3 million jobs lost won't be all bad, there will be new businesses started, existing businesses taking new-hires, and so on and so forth.

bottom line: it is not, and should not, be my (or your) responsibility to bail out GM. so what if it's a huge business people rely on. others go out every day and you never hear about it. small towns go under, people lose everything, others gain everything, and the news never tells you about it.

2000 SS-

You aren't your tax money. But since you think so, I'm curious, are you okay with GIVING yourself away to the financial sector? Or would you rather LOAN yourself to the automakers?

2000 SS-

You aren't your tax money. But since you think so, I'm curious, are you okay with GIVING yourself away to the financial sector? Or would you rather LOAN yourself to the automakers?

wtf are you talking about? all i'm saying is all these gov't bailouts AREN'T coming from a magical banker in some underground facility...they're coming out of every taxpayers pockets in one way or another. i don't want any of my money being wasted on a a bailout that is only going to prolong the inevitable.

Translation: the U.S. needs to fail.
That's essentially what you're saying because that's EXACTLY what's going to happen if the U.S. auto industry is forced into a bankruptcy/restructuring.
This could ultimately lead to what will someday be referred to as THE END of life in the U.S. as it was once known.
Such a shame. :nono:

sig'd for now

I think more people need to realize thats what will happen. If you think the layoffs are bad now...the trickle down effect will affect EVERYONE you know.

history has proven over and over again that all great societies and civilizations follow the same trend, ultimately ending in their downfall after 150-250 years. this should not be a surprise to anyone when/if it happens. i, for one, however do not think the auto industry's failure will result in the collapse of this nation. if you people think GM will just vanish when they go belly up, you're wrong. the name, rights, and all the stuff that goes with it will be for sale, and someone will pick it up. we can't NOT have auto manufacturers in the US, something will crawl out from uner the rubble.....just my $.02

history has proven over and over again that all great societies and civilizations follow the same trend, ultimately ending in their downfall after 150-250 years. this should not be a surprise to anyone when/if it happens. i, for one, however do not think the auto industry's failure will result in the collapse of this nation. if you people think GM will just vanish when they go belly up, you're wrong. the name, rights, and all the stuff that goes with it will be for sale, and someone will pick it up. we can't NOT have auto manufacturers in the US, something will crawl out from uner the rubble.....just my $.02

We already export hardley anything we can't afford to lose what we do.

I work as a mechanic in a independant neighborhood repair shop. My job is plenty secure no matter what happens, but everyone that works in any facet(sp?) of the auto industry will be effected.

I say give them 100 billion if thats what it takes. But it has to be paid back.

the pay cuts have to start at the top. I voted for Ron Paul but i can't wait for Barack to get into office.

I work on just about every make of car beside exotic european's, and personally I love most gm vehicals. Its hard to beat a honda or toyotas engine that needs a water pump and 3 timing belts to go 300,000 miles, but the americans quality has gotten a lot better in the last 15 years whether you want to believe it or not. Although I'm putting a set of headgaskets on a 2002 deville at work currently and its fucking rediculas the amount of work.

America got it twisted when we started buying these POS hyandai's and kia's. I guess everyone thought they were the same thing as a honda or toyota and with a 100,000 mile warrenty who could go wrong? Fcking garbage.

I work on just about every make of car beside exotic european's, and personally I love most gm vehicals. Its hard to beat a honda or toyotas engine that needs a water pump and 3 timing belts to go 300,000 miles, but the americans quality has gotten a lot better in the last 15 years whether you want to believe it or not. Although I'm putting a set of headgaskets on a 2002 deville at work currently and its fucking rediculas the amount of work.

America got it twisted when we started buying these POS hyandai's and kia's. I guess everyone thought they were the same thing as a honda or toyota and with a 100,000 mile warrenty who could go wrong? Fcking garbage.

i agree, domestics have come a long way...a LONG way. but also, it's too little too late. i mean, who REALLY gave a shit about a hybrid or electric car until last year? besides toyota and honda...

you know....college students have been building solar powered, human powered, and electric cars for YEARS now. i went to UMR and have seen them first hand, start to finish, concept to final product...and their budget's are next to nil when compared to GM, Ford, or Chrylser. now, why can't a multi-billion dollar industry come up with a vehicle, say, 50% more efficient than your run-of-the-mill engineering student? that's an easy question to answer: they're lazy and market to the wrong demographics with poor foresight. the million dollar question is: why have they waited until they were on the brink of bankruptcy to start being "green?" you can't tell me they didn't see this coming two years ago.

Why does everyone talk about GM coming a LONG way? As if all the Japanese manufacturers were making better cars 20yrs ago? ALL car companies have come along way. How many imports from the 70s and 80s do you see around? Not many. Sure there were less sold but they were NOT better quality cars than the domestics and IMO are not better cars today. Ever driven or worked on an 86-89 Accord? I hate those cars. They are ugly, uncomfortable and the engines are poorly designed. Were GM's cars better in the late 80s? They definitely weren't any worse.

Why does everyone talk about GM coming a LONG way? As if all the Japanese manufacturers were making better cars 20yrs ago? ALL car companies have come along way. How many imports from the 70s and 80s do you see around? Not many. Sure there were less sold but they were NOT better quality cars than the domestics and IMO are not better cars today. Ever driven or worked on an 86-89 Accord? I hate those cars. They are ugly, uncomfortable and the engines are poorly designed. Were GM's cars better in the late 80s? They definitely weren't any worse.

20 years ago there wasen't even a comparison. A 88 89 accord prelude or civic was 1 million times better then a as evidenced pontiac 6000. There were worse,(88-91) tempos,taurus',anything chrysler, luminas, grand am's.........straight junk.

The seat's were stiff as fuck, bodys rotted out up here in the rust belt, but I have to disagree about the motors, thats a 2.2 non vtec iirc, a timing and balance shaft belt and maybe a water pump if theres shaft play and your good to 200,000.

The one thing I always like about honda...they run their brake lines inside the car and in places where they use salt like where I live, those little things go a long way.

The entire "circus" that has transpired over the last month has soured many people that might have been somewhat neutral to decide rightly or wrongly that they don't want to support the American auto companies.

At a time, when the industry needs every buyer it can get, it's likely that their reputation has become even more tranished in the eyes of many Americans. I'm talking about the people that buy a Japanese or Korean TV set because they believe that it's the best deal for them. There used to be a huge electronics industry in the USA making TVs but the American TVs were more expensive for the same quality and people starting buying the imported TVs instead. Adios to the American TV industry. Some of the basic requirements for most people are that a car is both reliable and financially affordable and they buy cars that they PERCEIVE meet those requirements the best.

We can all discuss car build quality, and whose fault it is, etc... but at the end of the day, if people don't buy their cars, it won't matter much.

so its cool that we pass 700 billlion, thats 700,000,000,000. to white collar jobs and wall street because they all gambled with our credit and morgages and fucked the boat. but when it comes time to provide our AMERICAN auto industry with a 15 billion dollar LOAN, not bailout, which in turn supports blue collar jobs, everyone shits themselves. how much more is it going to cost us as tax payers when millions of people lose their jobs? if we lose our auto industry we lose are main manufacturing capabilities, if god forbid we were to enter another kind of conflict on a global scale. I agree that restructering and and a better business plan is needed, but to simply shrug it off and laugh about the colapse of our auto companies is stupid. if our rivals are happy about this happening should we be? losing the big 3 is losing our country.

i agree, domestics have come a long way...a LONG way. but also, it's too little too late. i mean, who REALLY gave a shit about a hybrid or electric car until last year? besides toyota and honda...

why have they waited until they were on the brink of bankruptcy to start being "green?" you can't tell me they didn't see this coming two years ago.

A little harsh on GM since Toyota opened a giant trucks plant in Texas at the exact wrong time along with introducing a V8 in the 4runner that averages 14mpg, along with their poor mpg sixes. Nissan has also been pimping worst in class mileage Armadas and Titans the last few years. In the meantime GM full size trucks have been as good or better than all of the competitors in fuel mileage every year.

Open your eyes guys, the statement that the Japanese do everything right and the American OEMs do everything wrong doesn't fly when you start looking closer at the Foreigners.

A little harsh on GM since Toyota opened a giant trucks plant in Texas at the exact wrong time along with introducing a V8 in the 4runner that averages 14mpg, along with their poor mpg sixes. Nissan has also been pimping worst in class mileage Armadas and Titans the last few years. In the meantime GM full size trucks have been as good or better than all of the competitors in fuel mileage every year.

Open your eyes guys, the statement that the Japanese do everything right and the American OEMs do everything wrong doesn't fly when you start looking closer at the Foreigners.

this is true. i'm not in any way shape for form saying foreign automakers are "better," but they're way ahead the game compared to domestics. i love GM's trucks. i've owned 3 and would love a new one, but i straight up can't afford one. it's all i can do the finish my camaro, much less take on a $400+/month payment for a base-model 4x4. they're ALL way overpriced. nobody can argue that. i don't care how much material costs have gone up, there's no reason for a $50K+ pickup. a truck is a utility vehicle, not a pimpin' wagon like so many seem to think. i actually have a need for a truck, but i can't afford to buy a new one, and i can barely maintain the old one.

you will never catch me driving a japanese truck, period. but it's also going to be a long time before i drive a new(er) GM truck as well. they've got longevity and quality, but they need to work on value.

A little harsh on GM since Toyota opened a giant trucks plant in Texas at the exact wrong time along with introducing a V8 in the 4runner that averages 14mpg, along with their poor mpg sixes. Nissan has also been pimping worst in class mileage Armadas and Titans the last few years. In the meantime GM full size trucks have been as good or better than all of the competitors in fuel mileage every year.

Open your eyes guys, the statement that the Japanese do everything right and the American OEMs do everything wrong doesn't fly when you start looking closer at the Foreigners.:werd:x 100 :nod:

You don't want them to go under because it would bring the rest of America with them.

I can tell you this; if anyone wants to trade for a nice low mileage 06 Toyota RAV4 for their same year full size GM truck or Avalanche I have one waiting for them! It is by far the worse POS vehicle I have owned in years including other than GM vehicles. Yeh, Toyota is so superior my ass! I buy an low mileage import every so often and I'm still waiting to be impressed. In the mean time I drive my same 115k 02 GMC thet I bought new that drives just as it did when it was new!


OMG!!!!!!!!!!!!! I am so GLAD to hear someone actually say this!!!!!!!!!!!!!

history has proven over and over again that all great societies and civilizations follow the same trend, ultimately ending in their downfall after 150-250 years. this should not be a surprise to anyone when/if it happens. i, for one, however do not think the auto industry's failure will result in the collapse of this nation.

GM going belly up may not be the end of the USA.... but it will surely HURT!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

If GM goes under.... it will cause millions of job losses.... hell.... even Toyota fears it may hurt them more than it would help.

It could even drive the country in to a depression.... which would cost us Trillions and take YEARS to recover from.

Even if we wind up GIVING GM $100B.... it will be better than the price we all would pay as the result of a depression.

And for the ones that say let them fail.... that failure has a cost as well....

The cost of letting them fail is around $200B!!!!!!!!!!

http://www.bloomberg.com/apps/news?pid=20601087&sid=ad09qxbiElB8&refer=home

Did I miss something..... $100B<$200B

The cost of failure is truly greater than the cost of a bailout!!!!!!!!!!!


if you people think GM will just vanish when they go belly up, you're wrong. the name, rights, and all the stuff that goes with it will be for sale, and someone will pick it up. we can't NOT have auto manufacturers in the US, something will crawl out from uner the rubble.....just my $.02

Give me a break....That won't be worth crap..... it may be worth a few bucks... but not enough to really matter.

all I got to say is GM spent all kinds money and took out a Print Add for this crap?!? Yes because there are soo many people that still read printed media on a daily basis. Just shows how out of touch they are. What next a fireside chat on AM radio from GM? :eyes:

all i got to say is gm spent all kinds money and took out a print add for this crap?!? Yes because there are soo many people that still read printed media on a daily basis. Just shows how out of touch they are. What next a fireside chat on am radio from gm? :eyes:


lol!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

What in the world are you talking about? You are saying that people who lack ability and or education should make just as much as those who work hard and make sacrifices to gain an education and strong knowledge of their field? So I guess burger flippers deserve to make the same as doctors? If that were the case then what would motivate people to better themselves? I agree that $20-$30/hr is not much these days. But for an average factory worker to make $25/hr when I as a technician who has spent thousands on school, I do everything I can to improve my skills, and I work in a more mentally challenging environment, I make $20/hr on flat rate. Last year I was working 60hrs/wk to earn 40. And that is not do to my lack of skill. Also as a technician the benefits sucks. I'm sure these factory workers making more than I do are getting much better benefits, and only working 40hrs to earn 40hrs. I do think that everyone with a good work ethic deserves to be able to support themselves and a family. But I'm just saying.......close to $30/hr to work in a factory when so many other higher skilled jobs pay less and have less benefits...it's pretty crazy to me.



Spoken like a true "Employee." BTW, Doctors don't make nearly the income they could be making had Congess not allowed "Drug Corporations" to Monopolize their income under the veil of "managed healthcare." Yes, everyone deserves the right to an income capable to sustain a healthy life, in this Country. I would include technicians in my statement. In this Country
one must be a Corproate executive, a business owner, Sports start, entertainment star, have a dual income Family, or work well over 40 hours in order to produce an income large enough to maintain a healthy living. We were born into this system of which gets more difficult to reside in each year. We are well on our way to forming two social classes, the rich & the poor, that's it. Whining about how ones pitiful wage should be greater that another's pitiful wage is pointless. The problem is far greater & resides at a much higher level.

This Country has not been operated "Buy the people" & "For the people" in well over a Century. This Country & the World are operated by the "Corporation & Government," for the "Corporation & Governement."

Spoken like a true "Employee."


What does that mean? I agree that it is very difficult to support a family compared to 20 years ago. Back then my dad made $35k and we lived in a $85k house. That house is now worth $200k(or was before the market went to crap) and my dad now makes $65k but he is in a better position. He is lucky to make what he does, most people in positions like his make around $45-$50k. So yeah, it's hard to make a living. But the funny thing that people don't understand is what "money" is. It's just a paper representation of resources: time, labor, and materials. We are definitely getting to where there's no middle class anymore but are there really enough "rich" people that if we averaged all us poor folk would be making significantly more? I kinda doubt it. And not everyone deserves to make as much as everyone else. Those who apply themselves, work harder, take the time to get an education, etc deserve to make more. For every one to make more money it has to come from some where. So unless we become more productive and efficient as a nation then charging more for our labor would just jack up the prices of everything and it would cancel out.

So anyway, it is my opinion that for factory workers to make significantly more than I do. Given that I am in the same industry and I'm much more educated in the technology of that industry, I believe I should be making more. That's all I was say. I don't expect to make 40/hr while they make 30, but they should be in the low 20s and guys like me in the high 20s, not the other way around. And I mentioned the benefits before.

What in the world are you talking about? You are saying that people who lack ability and or education should make just as much as those who work hard and make sacrifices to gain an education and strong knowledge of their field? So I guess burger flippers deserve to make the same as doctors? If that were the case then what would motivate people to better themselves? I agree that $20-$30/hr is not much these days. But for an average factory worker to make $25/hr when I as a technician who has spent thousands on school, I do everything I can to improve my skills, and I work in a more mentally challenging environment, I make $20/hr on flat rate. Last year I was working 60hrs/wk to earn 40. And that is not do to my lack of skill. Also as a technician the benefits sucks. I'm sure these factory workers making more than I do are getting much better benefits, and only working 40hrs to earn 40hrs. I do think that everyone with a good work ethic deserves to be able to support themselves and a family. But I'm just saying.......close to $30/hr to work in a factory when so many other higher skilled jobs pay less and have less benefits...it's pretty crazy to me.

I agree. $30hr isn't exactly pocket change...

Ya lets see whats easier to build things with lego's or Erector sets?

It amaze's me that people think they have it hard and cant take a pay cut with such a easy job. I used to work as a general Service Technician at Goodyear and living in Buffalo NY in the winter it snows and it builds up under the wheel well's and falls on you and you get all what and cold! I think even doing tires and oil changed would be hard then half of the automotive factory jobs in these plants!

I would like to see them in our shoe's making the money we make!

$30 an hour is outrageous for unskilled labor... not too mention all the people getting paid that money for not doing anything at all in "job bank." These people deserve $15-20 an hour, there's no reason for anyone getting paid higher than that for unskilled labor. The big 3 need to file Chapter 7 and restructure. They can't keep the union and filing for bankruptcy protection is the only way to do it. We are all here saying that these guys are getting paid too much but the entire reason the bailout didn't pass is because the UAW didn't want to take anymore pay cuts till 2011. Do you think the UAW will "restructure" its management if GM receives bail-out money?? NO, the same mob-like tatics will be used and your simply masking the problem. Ultimately setting up another failure down the road

All of you crying that if we don't save them the economy will completely crash, ask yourself this question: Do you believe in capitalism? If yes, than we've solved that problem. If you answered No, please apply for a new job here http://www.russiajobs.com/

Capitalism is the survival of the fittest and SHOULD be what this country is based on. Instead, we have decided to become socialistic and will quickly follow the path set fourth by western europe. How about the construction companies of the USA get together and say we need bailout money to survive? Then what? What job sector is next? The gov't shouldn't have started this in the first place, but believe me... The automakers don't need a bailout

To use some simpler terms, $30/hour calculates out to more than $60,000/year (assuming 40 hours per week, 52 weeks a year). That's a nice chunk of money to most people. Does anyone honestly believe that an assembly line worker is worth $60K/year plus all benefits paid?

Before you guys start ranting and raving about 60K a year listen to this:


The average income for the American guy is on the order of 48K. This is not for unskilled labour. Median home income is more like 50k.

It would not be uncommon for a "good company to work for" to pay 80% of the cost of insurance and benefits.

So to really compare how much these guys make for a HS Diploma you need to add in the benefits.... they make a lot more than 60K a year. Especially, if you don't have a job with such benefits you might not realise this... how much it really costs to employ someone at this level of support.

I realise that a factory job isn't easy but I have been there and I have worked manual labor. Even though it isn't easy I am not sure if 60K is meritable for that kind of work. Not trying to change the system here. Just my 2 cents.

I have seen the type of work that they do in these places and it isn't like in other factories I have seen people set up industrial machines for different runs and try to maintain an output quota for 16 dollars an hour.

Tell GM to build every car in there line up to be cool like the vette,G8 and camaro and they will see more people come to them



Notice how well caddy has done

GM also over charges for there cars by ALOT! Its a joke how much they are marked up

something good has to come from all this bs eventually
if it doesnt shape up in a few yrs. modding cars or even buying cars will be the least of our problems.

Look what is happenning at the Ford camp:
http://www.clickondetroit.com/video/10235271/index.html

GM also over charges for there cars by ALOT! Its a joke how much they are marked upYeah but those $25k+ Honda Civics are a great value. :eyes: :jest: ;)

Look what is happenning at the Ford camp:
http://www.clickondetroit.com/video/10235271/index.htmlNice. :usa:

people fail to realize that there are a lot of unskilled jobs out there that pay very good like UPS or FedEx drivers they can make up too 100k and its not that hard, it just takes time to get up there. I believe that if the workers spent the years there for those wages then they deserve the pay they are getting.

Yeah but those $25k+ Honda Civics are a great value. :eyes: :jest: ;)

The only Civic that costs near that much is the Hybrid Sedan, which stickers for $23,650. Maybe if you load a $21k Si up with dealer-installed options, but $25k+ is ridiculous. And how's this for an example of how they cost too much; back in 2005 I was looking for a compact/midsize truck to drive when I was doing air conditioning/appliance repair. I wanted something new, with good power, a manual transmission, and 4 doors. You know what that left me with? A Nissan Frontier. So I got a Crew Cab V6/6spd for just under $21k. The closest American competitor was a POS Colorado which was $4k more, had significantly less hp/tq, and was automatic-only.