Gen 5 Camaro Internal Engine Tech - New Camaro alot like a gto

I was wondering if any of you guys feel the same way about the new camaro. I am a huge gm fan but the car is not going to save them. Look at how big of a hit the gto was. The camaro is built by the same people and has irs. I like how it looks but there should be an option for a solid rear. Is the diff going to blow apart when you put upgrades on it like cts vs and gtos do. I am gm guy but ford is where I would go to buy a new car to built parts on and take to the track. Ford offers several different options for a fast off the floor car. Is gm going to have 2 option v6 or v8 that is no fun. Just my two cents

I was wondering if any of you guys feel the same way about the new camaro.While I do sort of feel the same way, I don't think it's a bad thing, the GTO (and more importantly, the G8 that shares even more with the new Camaro) was a GREAT car for the money offering an AMAZING interior and ride quality in a low 13/high 12 second package.





Is the diff going to blow apart when you put upgrades on it like cts vs and gtos do.No, it won't.
The (first gen) CTS-V is a different animal but the GTO (and the G8) have VERY strong rear set ups actually, especially when the car is an automatic.
I watched a guy named Kenny with his then 'still IRS' Cartek rear mount/STS turbo black GTO cut low 1.4 sixty foots on his way to a 9.7 (and other multiple high 9s) at over 141mph all on a stock GTO IRS.
The new Camaro will be fine. :drive:

So you'd get a Ford because it's slower stock and you want to have to run a blower to hang with a new Camaro with a converter and drag radials?

The Camaro will do alot better than the GTO.The GTO was more of a older person's car were the Camaro suit's all ages.The part's breaking under too much HP well that will happen to all models if you just upgrade the motor and not do the whole drivetrain.I think the Camaro will make a great come back.How long it will last we will have to see.

Camaro won't save GM, GM will have to save GM.

what ever happened to the bail out? lol i lost track of that junk


but looking at how the IRS is setup, i believe they have larger diameter on one side vs the other to prevent wheel hop (lol hello cobra's)

they look alike because they are both coupes with big v8's and IRS, but thats about it

buy it and find out

not sure what GTO you looked at......

what ever happened to the bail out? lol i lost track of that junk


They didn't get the money they requested, but they are getting some to hold them over til the new administration takes over. Allegedly Obama has been working on a plan he will put in place to help out the big 3.

So you'd get a Ford because it's slower stock and you want to have to run a blower to hang with a new Camaro with a converter and drag radials?

Same thing I was thinking :eyes:

From what i have been reading from forum to forum ,site to site, lets hope all the enthusiast waving the bow-tie banner actual purchase the new Camaro. This car should prove more popular due to it's looks alone. I like the GTO but found it lacking in visual aesthetics.

Believe it or not, the drag racing crowd is the minority, even with the Camaro. If GM put a live axle in the new Camaro it would hurt sales more over a broader demographic than putting IRS in it will. Besides, they have made a lot of progress in IRS setups since the original CTS-V's.

GTO is/was a great car but it just didn't catch peoples eyes.

IF the Camaro was nothing more than a little more flashy version of the GTO (and it's not, it is significantly more than that) when we'd still be doing pretty good. The 05-06 GTO was a pretty great combo wrapped in a mundane shell.

The Camaro SS w/ an LS3 is the way to go, you'll be able to make 500+ hp w/ bolt ons and a cam w/ total ease, and a drivetrain that should easily be able to handle it. The LS3 is an insane engine for us to be getting in the "base" V8 Camaro, what a kickass deal.

Not until (and if) Ford releases their rumored 375+hp 5.0l engines (and only if they dump them in GTs) will the Mustang even compare as far as your "standard" V8 models go.

So you'd get a Ford because it's slower stock and you want to have to run a blower to hang with a new Camaro with a converter and drag radials?

I'm a Chevy guy and would definitely buy a Shelby, which appear to be strong enough to put 650 to 700 at the wheels. Is the LSX able to hold this kind of power or get there fairly cheap?

yeah, look at the ls2 blocks in the GTO's getting boosted ;)

The Camaro will do alot better than the GTO.The GTO was more of a older person's car were the Camaro suit's all ages.The part's breaking under too much HP well that will happen to all models if you just upgrade the motor and not do the whole drivetrain.I think the Camaro will make a great come back.How long it will last we will have to see.

old persons car? i baught mine brand new at 26 years old, infact most of the people I know that own them are in there 20's younger 30's.

OP is so misinformed. The IRS on the 05-06 GTO's is plenty beefed up. I don't think about it 1/2 as much as I worried about the SS's. It just isn't the coolest looking car. Thats why it didn't sell.

CTS-V's had a design flaw and were blowing up under light duty by normal folks just driving around. They were even blowing up on regular CTS's.

The Camaro will be a great car. Faster than the GTO with the same comfort and sexy as a corvette. Also track tested in the Nurbeuring (sp?) in Germany. Many magazines and shows have raved about how well GM's cars that are tested/tuned there handle.

So yes, the Camaro will be a lot like the GTO except faster, stronger (hopefully), and sexier.

GM spent alot of time and money to upgrade the Camaro's IRS, so that should'nt be on top of your worry list. They didn't expect alot of the early CTS-Vs to be drag racing and it bit them in the butt, there was no excuse for the GTO's wheel hop issue. FWIW, GM did shoot themselves in the leg with the design of the GTO, but it had a great powerplant. The Camaro will have alot more "built in" buyers than the GTO, way too many years from the original GTO until the newer ones, all those old guys who felt nostalgic enough to buy a new one couldn't see well enough to tell if it was a Grand Am, Grand Prix or a GTO at the lot, so they bought a Buick instead. There's still quite a "younger" following for the Camaro. If considering a Ford with the "fast off the showroom floor" options, consider a bank account historectamy, you'll pay alot to get a Mustang from the factory that'll hang with the top of the line Camaro.

http://www.edmunds.com/insideline/do/Features/articleId=121044#34

this just shows the gto and camaro are 1 in the same

http://www.edmunds.com/insideline/do/Features/articleId=121044#34

this just shows the gto and camaro are 1 in the same

No, that shows you can hack up a GTO chassis to make some one-off Camaro panels fit.
The 2010 Camaro is riding on a shortened version of the next generation platform the GTO had. Its like saying the 3rd gen camaro is the same as the 4th gen because you can modify the chassis to make panels fit :eyes:

ok sorry ,saw that and from what i saw it was the same lenth

I was wondering if any of you guys feel the same way about the new camaro. NO! I am a huge gm fan but the car is not going to save them. NO SINGLE CAR TRUCK ETC. IS GOING TO SAVE ANY CAR COMPANY. "There once was a car called a VW bug. They all looked the same, everyone had one. The auto industry changed. The bug went away and was replaced by something else.

Look at how big of a hit the gto was. HOLDEN MADE A CAR THAT COULD BE ALTERED AND CALLED A GTO. ALL THE GTO FOLKS COULDN'T BUY ENOUGH OF THEM TO MAKE THEM A HIT. The camaro is built( DESIGNED) by the same people and has irs. I like how it looks but there should be an option for a solid rear. DESIGN A SOLID REAR FOR THIS CAR. SPEND THE MONEY DO IT RIGHT. SELL IT TO GM - YOU CAN GO BROKE TOGETHER. IN 40 YEARS OF SELL CARS. I HAVE NEVER HAD ANYONE FALL ON THE GROUND AND LOOK UNDER THE CAR TO LOOK FOR ANYTHING. I am gm guy but ford is where I would go to buy a new car to built parts on and take to the track. Ford offers several different options for a fast off the floor car. Is gm going to have 2 option v6 or v8 that is no fun. Just my two cents GM ISN'T BUILDING THE CAR FOR YOU. No one builds a car to be raced.. IF YOU WANT A FORD PLEASE BUY ONE AND ENJOY IT. :chug:

:angel: Jakes Dad

GM ISN'T BUILDING THE CAR FOR YOU. No one builds a car to be raced.. IF YOU WANT A FORD PLEASE BUY ONE AND ENJOY IT. :chug:

:angel: Jakes Dad

No one builds a car to be raced? Then why would GM spend so much time and money developing their performance cars on various race tracks (like Germany's Nurburgring, which they have to rent out and fly their cars over to race, not cheap), or even build their own track (GM built a track that resembles the n-ring so they don't have to constantly fly over there to test)?
Or do you think that GM spent the time and money developing the Camaro's suspension, brakes, and engine just for low RPM <60mph street cruising?
For the people bitching about the IRS, get over it. Its a FAR superior setup than a solid axle, seriously if you care that your car gets .01 seconds slower in the 60ft at the dragstrip you visit monthly then a $30,000 Camaro SS with track tuned (handling) suspension is not for you. Buy an old fox body mustang and drop in an LS1.

ok sorry ,saw that and from what i saw it was the same lenth
quote from article:
"Since the GTO with its 109.8-inch wheelbase is already about the same size as the Camaro Concept with its 110.5-inch wheelbase, the Australian-built Pontiac became a natural base upon which to build the two Bumblebees. But the GTO is built around a unitized structure, so Saleen couldn't simply drop a new body onto the chassis. "Basically it was reverse-engineered by our build team," explains Bryan Chambers, the director of production at Saleen. "We had less than 45 days to build both cars so it was a barn-burner."

To simplify, the bodies were chopped off the two 5.7-liter, LS1-powered GTOs while box frames of steel were welded up to compensate for the lost structure. Then a team led by Jon Zorn in Saleen's showcar body shop grafted on the GM-supplied fiberglass bodies that had bee"

I'm a Chevy guy and would definitely buy a Shelby, which appear to be strong enough to put 650 to 700 at the wheels. Is the LSX able to hold this kind of power or get there fairly cheap?

How much is a Shelby Mustang, mid 40's? I have no idea.

I'm sure you could put 600-650 to the wheels in a new Camaro with a stock bottom end. Folks have been doing 500-600rwhp with stock bottom end LS1's for over 7 years.

No one builds a car to be raced? Then why would GM spend so much time and money developing their performance cars on various race tracks (like Germany's Nurburgring, which they have to rent out and fly their cars over to race, not cheap), or even build their own track (GM built a track that resembles the n-ring so they don't have to constantly fly over there to test)?
Or do you think that GM spent the time and money developing the Camaro's suspension, brakes, and engine just for low RPM <60mph street cruising?
For the people bitching about the IRS, get over it. Its a FAR superior setup than a solid axle, seriously if you care that your car gets .01 seconds slower in the 60ft at the dragstrip you visit monthly then a $30,000 Camaro SS with track tuned (handling) suspension is not for you. Buy an old fox body mustang and drop in an LS1.:bang: They built what :confused: and then want's tax payers to bailout their company ???GM should have been building capital instead of racetracks :nod:. Just kidding guys this was probably minimal compared too other things going on with their finance's.

:bang: They built what :confused: and then want's tax payers to bailout their company ???GM should have been building capital instead of racetracks :nod:. Just kidding guys this was probably minimal compared too other things going on with their finance's.
This was before many of their problems:
http://www.caranddriver.com/features/columns/c_d_staff/larry_webster/who_needs_the_nuerburgring_anyway_column

But its no different than building a test facility for their cars.

How much is a Shelby Mustang, mid 40's? I have no idea.

I'm sure you could put 600-650 to the wheels in a new Camaro with a stock bottom end. Folks have been doing 500-600rwhp with stock bottom end LS1's for over 7 years.

I have been looking at used Shelby with low miles going for about 35K. Wanted to buy used and use the money for an upgraded blower.

I'm not up to speed on the LS3 in the Camaro and didn't know if it could handle a blower and put down those kind of numbers. Glad to see 600rwhp can be done.

GM took the good things about the GTO, made them better, and wrapped them in the new Camaro. The GTO's problem was that most people think it looks like a Grand Prix so it didn't sell very well. If GM advertises the new Camaro properly they will sell a ton of them.

For the people bitching about the IRS, get over it. Its a FAR superior setup than a solid axle, seriously if you care that your car gets .01 seconds slower in the 60ft at the dragstrip you visit monthly then a $30,000 Camaro SS with track tuned (handling) suspension is not for you. Buy an old fox body mustang and drop in an LS1.

I know of a few guys who have been waiting very patiently to buy a new 2010 Camaro to use as thier new drag radial cars. Unfortunately, most drag radial class rules insist on stock suspension. While this new IRS may be better than most, i doubt you're going to get low 1.20 60fts using it and that (or better) is what it takes to be competitive. SO, yes, they scared off a few. As for how many people will actually buy one, I did my part. Mine has been on order for a month or so and I look forward to testing its limits :devil:

I was wondering if any of you guys feel the same way about the new camaro. I am a huge gm fan but the car is not going to save them. Look at how big of a hit the gto was. The camaro is built by the same people and has irs. I like how it looks but there should be an option for a solid rear. Is the diff going to blow apart when you put upgrades on it like cts vs and gtos do. I am gm guy but ford is where I would go to buy a new car to built parts on and take to the track. Ford offers several different options for a fast off the floor car. Is gm going to have 2 option v6 or v8 that is no fun. Just my two cents

there are huge differences between the Camaro and the GTO. to start, Holden is not going to make the Camaro. It will be made in Canada and by GM of North America. The suspension system is a lot better on the Camaro than the GTO. The styling of the Camaro is leap years ahead of the GTO.

Do not get me wrong, however, I love the GTO. But the Camaro is cooler.But for me, here is my next ride:

http://forums.peddersusa.com/imagehosting/74928fcf72b131.jpg

or at least the USA version: G8ST

mike
dms

The Camaro will do alot better than the GTO.The GTO was more of a older person's car were the Camaro suit's all ages.

I know many GTO owners and most are in their 20's. Of course you may consider someone in their 20's older, I don't know.

wow that g8st is what i wanna get....price with shipping to 61301?

I know of a few guys who have been waiting very patiently to buy a new 2010 Camaro to use as thier new drag radial cars. Unfortunately, most drag radial class rules insist on stock suspension. While this new IRS may be better than most, i doubt you're going to get low 1.20 60fts using it and that (or better) is what it takes to be competitive. SO, yes, they scared off a few. As for how many people will actually buy one, I did my part. Mine has been on order for a month or so and I look forward to testing its limits :devil:

Well this was kinda my point. Why spend all that extra money on a car that was designed and engineered to turn and stop when they aren't going to use it? Its like buying a NASA space ship, but only using it to drive on the ground. Whats the point of that? You could buy something cheaper to use for that. I.E. if all they care about is how hard they launch then why not just buy some cheap car and mod it?
And either way GM would probably be putting a 10 bolt in the car anyway(which would hurt both ride quality and handling), so they would want to replace the rear end still.
IRS is a smart move, they will attract more customers than they draw away, and the ones they draw away are usually the people that gave the Camaro the mullet stereotype to begin with...

Well this was kinda my point. Why spend all that extra money on a car that was designed and engineered to turn and stop when they aren't going to use it? Its like buying a NASA space ship, but only using it to drive on the ground. Whats the point of that? You could buy something cheaper to use for that. I.E. if all they care about is how hard they launch then why not just buy some cheap car and mod it?
And either way GM would probably be putting a 10 bolt in the car anyway(which would hurt both ride quality and handling), so they would want to replace the rear end still.
IRS is a smart move, they will attract more customers than they draw away, and the ones they draw away are usually the people that gave the Camaro the mullet stereotype to begin with...

there are a lot of GTOs running in the mid 11's with IRS. Granted it is not the best setup for drag racing, but neither is the Vette, and those are drag raced all the time. I know of one GTO that puts down 865 rhwp and he has IRS.

There are serious advantages in handling with IRS.

But the biggest dissadvantage of the Camaro for drag racing is not the IRS, but the lack of tire size. This will also be a major limiting factor of the Camaro and all ZETA vehicles for the twisties as well. Being able to run a big tire is one of the major advantages of the VETTE.

The GTO is more than competitive at the drags with a Vette. But thru the twisties, autocrossing, etc, the Vette has a serious advantage


But what a fun ride it will be!!

mike
dms

Camaro looking like the GTO is the stupidest "this car looks like this car" comparison I've ever heard.

i think they are kinda similar.

theyre both pigs :jest:

Hope they wont be delayed from the bail out failure in the senate. I ended up buying an 09 Challenger RT six speed, but wanted to test drive the Camaro to, may never be able to do that now. The IRS is great for handling in the corners, even at 4,000 pounds. Its not bad for drag racing either, no wheel hop and takes off smooth. They are designed off the previous Gen Mercedes E class though. The Camaro IRS should do well also.

Look at how big of a hit the gto was.


It was? I thought they stopped production on them because they sold like hot chocolate on Daytona Beach in the middle of June.

It was? I thought they stopped production on them because they sold like hot chocolate on Daytona Beach in the middle of June.

yeah im pretty sure this is truth.....

I would agree the 04 GTO doesnt look very aggressive, but 05 and up looks so much better! I wish the New Camaro was lighter but hey its still gonna be fast! I dont know how ford can not bother being competitive with either the new Camaro, or Challenger, seems like they will never get ahead or even.....

I would agree the 04 GTO doesnt look very aggressive, but 05 and up looks so much better! I wish the New Camaro was lighter but hey its still gonna be fast! I dont know how ford can not bother being competitive with either the new Camaro, or Challenger, seems like they will never get ahead or even..... I think Pontiac would have loved to be more agressive with the GTO's styling, but they was criticized previously for having boy racer like body cladding. (IE) The Grand-Am/Grand Prix/ Bonneville/ was targeted for these reasons. I like the Gto even though it needed to have more of a presence so to speak. I think with the new competition Ford will step up in power for the Mustang Gt. Now if they don't get the loans from the government we might be seeing the end of the modern performance era.

It was? I thought they stopped production on them because they sold like hot chocolate on Daytona Beach in the middle of June.

You thought wrong. The GTO was never planned to go past 2006 because Holden stopped making the chassis. That was known in the beginning.

That doesn't negate the fact they didn't sell. I'm not bashing your car, I love GTOs, but don't try to defend their shitty numbers just because you have one.

GTO's plan from day one was 3 model years, 15,000 cars maximum per year.
They built around 42,000 in the 3 years, so pretty close to target.

GTO and Camaro are similar in that they are both coupes, both are RWD, and both have 4 wheels and 4 tires and windsheilds. :D

I like owning a car that I rarely ever see someone else driving. I get tired of seeing gazillions of mustangs, corvettes, camaros, and trans ams. So a lot of people didn't like the GTO. To each his own. Have fun driving with the rest of the clones (no offense).

I like owning a car that I rarely ever see someone else driving. I get tired of seeing gazillions of mustangs, corvettes, camaros, and trans ams. So a lot of people didn't like the GTO. To each his own. Have fun driving with the rest of the clones (no offense).
It's good to have a different unique car that everyone and their cousin doesn't have, i agree with that.In saying this there is always a trade off,(IE) The Impala SS/ Grand National/Syclone/Typhoon/ are all great vehicles but do to lack of a gazillion sales didn't last long. I wonder what these vehicles including the Thunderbird Turbo-coupe/ Monte Carlo SS/ GNX/Hurst Olds/ would be if they were continued today ???? I remember when Chevy delayed the C-4 Corvette in '83 which had no model that year . Even though it was only a year it still was missed by many. As i have stated before i want the new Camaro/Challenger/Mustang/Corvette's to sell otherwise we might end up with no American Muscle.

It's good to have a different unique car that everyone and their cousin doesn't have, i agree with that.In saying this there is always a trade off,(IE) The Impala SS/ Grand National/Syclone/Typhoon/ are all great vehicles but do to lack of a gazillion sales didn't last long. I wonder what these vehicles including the Thunderbird Turbo-coupe/ Monte Carlo SS/ GNX/Hurst Olds/ would be if they were continued today ???? I remember when Chevy delayed the C-4 Corvette in '83 which had no model that year . Even though it was only a year it still was missed by many. As i have stated before i want the new Camaro/Challenger/Mustang/Corvette's to sell otherwise we might end up with no American Muscle.

That's not true. The Grand National was a car people begged GM to keep in production and they added shifts to meet demand, they sold over 25,000 in 1987. That's more than many muscle cars today sell.

The reason the Grand National stopped production was the same reason the Sy/Ty and LSX GTO stopped production, the lines that built them were always planned to convert over to producing something else at a scheduled date.

The Camaro and GTO are very similar in design because Holden created them both. If you've driven the G8 (which is a rebadged Holden like the GTO was) you'll have a very good idea what the Camaro will be like as Holden made it out of the G8 itself. I own both a GTO and a G8 and they are very similar, except the G8's steering and suspension is light years ahead.

The line the G8 rolls down in Australia is the same one that produced the GTO and the G8 is the next generation of that car. GTO (and Monaro) production stopped in Spring 2006 to changover to producing the all-new Commodore (which is what the G8 is with a different nose).

That's not true. The Grand National was a car people begged GM to keep in production and they added shifts to meet demand, they sold over 25,000 in 1987. That's more than many muscle cars today sell.

The reason the Grand National stopped production was the same reason the Sy/Ty and LSX GTO stopped production, the lines that built them were always planned to convert over to producing something else at a scheduled date. My point is the G-body's were made into FWD chassis due to lack of demand for RWD. 25,000 plus the 547 GNX models was not going to change GM's mind about the change. I comprehend what you are saying about a change in production strategy but the changes where due to slow sales.

BlueOvalTurbo, what are you arguing, I am not following you.

Now I think the fastest stock LS2 GTO went like 13.3? If that is the case, the new Camaro will be as fast or faster. It's probably not that much heavier and it makes power power. I'm hoping to run 12's stock in my ordered 5G 6AT Camaro.

BlueOvalTurbo, what are you arguing, I am not following you.

Now I think the fastest stock LS2 GTO went like 13.3? If that is the case, the new Camaro will be as fast or faster. It's probably not that much heavier and it makes power power. I'm hoping to run 12's stock in my ordered 5G 6AT Camaro. READ THE POST BY TRI SHIELD AFTER MINE "ANSWER" . Discussing is the actual word no one is argueing. Back on topic : The new Camaro will do fine as long as GM " Chevy" stay's committed to it's success.

That doesn't negate the fact they didn't sell.
How many didn't get sold?

I'm not bashing your car, I love GTOs, but don't try to defend their shitty numbers just because you have one.

I didn't defend anything, I stated a fact. You thought wrong. Sorry if you don't like being corrected. 4th gen f-bods, like you have, didn't exactly sell like hot cakes.

I thought that some had broken into the 12's with the ls2 GTO stock? And im sure that 13.3 was rather easily achievable with a good driver.

pretty much mirrored an ls1 f-bod in the 1/4 from what ive read

Now I think the fastest stock LS2 GTO went like 13.3?I thought that some had broken into the 12's with the ls2 GTO stock? And im sure that 13.3 was rather easily achievable with a good driver.They did, at least two people ran in the high 12s in a bone stock LS2 GTO, might've even been three people actually. :nod:

I will be looking at an SS when my 335i lease is up. But the GTO is very tempting. There really is not that much difference between the cars and the difference in price will buy a lot of mods to easily make up the small (most likely) performance gap.

GTO prices seem be hit hard by the pending release of the Camaro which makes them an attractive deal.

GTO versus the Camaro:
Plainer looking, 40-50% cheaper, and will always be a more unique car to drive.

One other interesting point on this thread is that you can now buy a used GT 500s for mid to high thirties. That car will hold its value better than either of these two cars. It has tons of mod potential. I know thats LS heresy, sorry.

One other interesting point on this thread is that you can now buy a used Cobra for mid to high thirties.Are you referring to the '03/'04 Cobras?
Cheaper than that I bet....they were even down to the low 20s at one point before they started climbing back up.
Unless you meant the GT500s.

And yes, a used 6.0L GTO is an amazing performance bargain/value but it's still not quite the total package that the new Camaro SS will be.

It's good to have a different unique car that everyone and their cousin doesn't have, i agree with that.In saying this there is always a trade off,(IE) The Impala SS/ Grand National/Syclone/Typhoon/ are all great vehicles but do to lack of a gazillion sales didn't last long. I wonder what these vehicles including the Thunderbird Turbo-coupe/ Monte Carlo SS/ GNX/Hurst Olds/ would be if they were continued today ???? I remember when Chevy delayed the C-4 Corvette in '83 which had no model that year . Even though it was only a year it still was missed by many. As i have stated before i want the new Camaro/Challenger/Mustang/Corvette's to sell otherwise we might end up with no American Muscle.

The Grand National would have continued to sell, and continued to rise in sales....but thanks Chevrolet and its beloved corvette (that the Grand National desimated) they were stopped and the buick regal became a 4 door fwd family car.....its like Chevy punished buick for having a faster car than a corvette. And todays Typhoon (TBSS) has done fairly well i think

The Grand National would have continued to sell, and continued to rise in sales....but thanks Chevrolet and its beloved corvette (that the Grand National desimated)I too love GNs (and turbo T-types) and I agree that they could've sold them all well into the late '80s if they chose to keep building them but the turbo Regals did not exactly decimate the Corvette, they merely beat it (in a straight line).
An '86/'87 Corvette was a solid low 14 second car in stock trim with stock turbo Regals only slightly ahead running high 13s in the same weather conditions.
Once the modding starts of course the Regal pulls WAY ahead. :nod:

My point is the G-body's were made into FWD chassis due to lack of demand for RWD. 25,000 plus the 547 GNX models was not going to change GM's mind about the change. I comprehend what you are saying about a change in production strategy but the changes where due to slow sales.

No it wasn't, the plan to switch from FWD to RWD was set years prior to 1987. They cranked out all the Grand Nationals they could prior to the planned switchover. Once the decision and investment is made years in advance it's difficult and costly to reverse it which is why it seldom ever happens.

The Grand National would have continued to sell, and continued to rise in sales....but thanks Chevrolet and its beloved corvette (that the Grand National desimated) they were stopped and the buick regal became a 4 door fwd family car.....its like Chevy punished buick for having a faster car than a corvette. And todays Typhoon (TBSS) has done fairly well i think

It was always a four door family car too, the Grand National model was the exception not the rule. It had nothing to do with Chevrolet either, it had everything to do with GM's decision to not redesign the G-body chassis and replace it with the W-body chassis in 1987. That also killed all the other brand flavors of the RWD G-body, not just the Grand National.

The Grand National would have continued to sell, and continued to rise in sales....but thanks Chevrolet and its beloved corvette (that the Grand National desimated) they were stopped and the buick regal became a 4 door fwd family car.....its like Chevy punished buick for having a faster car than a corvette. And todays Typhoon (TBSS) has done fairly well i think The GN/T-Type's/SS Monte Carlo/Hurst Olds, could have been saved . People forget on two occations the F-bodies were going to be FWD but due to enthusiast outrage it didn't happen. The mustang was going to have the same fate also in the late eighties but due to people writing in etc, the Ford Probe was created instead. I observe things that a lot of people don't think about(IE) The updated n/a 3.8 L made 200 h.p. the same rating as the '85 GN . Imagine possibly what would be done today with better ignition/turbo's/ intercooling/etc.

Are you referring to the '03/'04 Cobras?
Cheaper than that I bet....they were even down to the low 20s at one point before they started climbing back up.
Unless you meant the GT500s.

And yes, a used 6.0L GTO is an amazing performance bargain/value but it's still not quite the total package that the new Camaro SS will be.

Doh, I meant GT500.

I came up with a price comparison comparing a not highly optioned SS at say $33K and an average 2006 GTO at $18K. Fair numbers?

And comparing the GTO and SS is not quite fair to the new SS in price since the GTO is now 3 years old and has miles on it, but is the new SS going to be worth $15K+ more?

Maybe not to me. I just wish the Camaro being smaller would be 200 - 300 lbs lighter then the GTO (with comparable options). Then I could see a significant advantage. LS2 versus LS3? Not a huge difference. The handling difference? You might notice only at the track (IMO), the round kind.

But that $15K will buy 100 HP and a Pedders suspension, easy, with change left over and better performance every where. And maybe you get some of these mods for free on the GTO.

Which leaves looks. GTO - boring, but is a bit of a Q ship just like the original GTO. Camaro - I like it better, but beautiful in way the 1970 and 1993 Camaros seemed at the time? No, the SS is not a beauty.

The GTO just makes more sense. But then the new SS is more exciting. I guess it depends on which brain is doing the thinking.

But wait, what if I just drop an LS3 in my WS6?

Hmmm let me think this over.

Assuming my WS6 is worth $7.5K and the '06 GTO $18K. For the $11.5K difference could I drop in a new LS3 and upgrade to a smoother better handling suspension?

Then my WS6 would out perform both the GTO and the Camaro SS.

As fars as looks go the WS6 attracts more attention already than a GTO but maybe does not fare so well against an SS Camaro. But if the Camaro becomes popular people will stop noticing these as much too.

But then what is that $18K LS3 WS6 worth? $10K? The $18K GTO is still worth $18K at first but droping fast. In 2-3 years both cars may be worth about the same.

The $25K modded GTO will not be worth much more that the stock GTO in the long run.

In that same time period the $33K SS will be worth say $23K.

Ok so let's compare the cost of the 4 options:

Car:...................Cost .......After 3 years...Diff
'97 LS3 WS6......- $18K...........$10K?.........$8K
'06 GTO Stock... - $18K .........$11K ..........$7K
'06 GTO Modded - $25K .........$12K ..........$13K
'10 Camaro SS... - $33K..........$23K...........$10K

These number are all just not so wild guesses. Feel free to rip me for them.

Which of the options would be the most fun? The LS3 WS6?

But looking at it this way the SS is not so expensive compared to the others. If we extend this train of thought over more years the SS will continue to drop and the other cars will bottom out. But who knows what will be happening then? Will we all be living in trailers?

The lesson here seems to be: Buy your cars pre-modded. :eyes:

The GN/T-Type's/SS Monte Carlo/Hurst Olds, could have been saved . People forget on two occations the F-bodies were going to be FWD but due to enthusiast outrage it didn't happen. The mustang was going to have the same fate also in the late eighties but due to people writing in etc, the Ford Probe was created instead.Very true, I remember that well.
The FWD Probe was originally slated to replace the RWD Mustang and I think the Beretta was going to do the same to the Camaro but the public outcry was well received and the Pony cars were spared. :thumb: Thank God. :D

I came up with a price comparison comparing a not highly optioned SS at say $33K and an average 2006 GTO at $18K. Fair numbers?

And comparing the GTO and SS is not quite fair to the new SS in price since the GTO is now 3 years old and has miles on it, but is the new SS going to be worth $15K+ more?

Maybe not to me. I just wish the Camaro being smaller would be 200 - 300 lbs lighter then the GTO (with comparable options). Then I could see a significant advantage. LS2 versus LS3? Not a huge difference. The handling difference? You might notice only at the track (IMO), the round kind.

But that $15K will buy 100 HP and a Pedders suspension, easy, with change left over and better performance every where. And maybe you get some of these mods for free on the GTO.

Which leaves looks. GTO - boring, but is a bit of a Q ship just like the original GTO. Camaro - I like it better, but beautiful in way the 1970 and 1993 Camaros seemed at the time? No, the SS is not a beauty.

The GTO just makes more sense. But then the new SS is more exciting. I guess it depends on which brain is doing the thinking.

But wait, what if I just drop an LS3 in my WS6?I hear ya on this one, it IS a tough call. The Camaro will likely be the overall better (and better performing) car but will it be $15k+ better? I'm not sure.
They're both great cars and ya can't go wrong either way.

I also like your LS3 WS6 idea, lighter, cheaper, FASTER. :devil:

Stop comparing the GTO and the Camaro.

They are not the same car, not even the same platform, even if the V-body and Zeta have some similarities.

I wouldn't go as far as saying at they are basically with same thing, as the OP did, just because they are RWD, IRS, V8 coupes.

Stop comparing the GTO and the Camaro.

They are not the same car, not even the same platform, even if the V-body and Zeta have some similarities.

I wouldn't go as far as saying at they are basically with same thing, as the OP did, just because they are RWD, IRS, V8 coupes.

They are or will be; however, heavy pigs...

You dumbass, have you ever driven a GTO?

I've driven in one and they are very nicely made and handle very well. That's why I'm considering a G8, so I at least get a couple extra doors to go with the weight. My buddy has the 2006 model w/stall and tune. He runs 14.0s very consistently on street tires, LOL!

I've driven in one and they are very nicely made and handle very well. That's why I'm considering a G8, so I at least get a couple extra doors to go with the weight. My buddy has the 2006 model w/stall and tune. He runs 14.0s very consistently on street tires, LOL!

The G8 suspension and steering is light years better. Unlike the GTO it can also fit wide tires up to 305s out back.

The G8 suspension and steering is light years better. Unlike the GTO it can also fit wide tires up to 305s out back.

Exactly. Compare the G8 and the Camaro. Not that the GTO is a bad car, but the V platform it is too different from the Zeta platform, to call the Camaro, a new paneled GTO

I was wondering if any of you guys feel the same way about the new camaro. I am a huge gm fan but the car is not going to save them. Look at how big of a hit the gto was. The camaro is built by the same people and has irs. I like how it looks but there should be an option for a solid rear. Is the diff going to blow apart when you put upgrades on it like cts vs and gtos do. I am gm guy but ford is where I would go to buy a new car to built parts on and take to the track. Ford offers several different options for a fast off the floor car. Is gm going to have 2 option v6 or v8 that is no fun. Just my two cents

Most of these cars will never see sticky tires and a drag strip.

Many will be used as intended, a sporty, everyday car.

The rear, if the same as the G8 rear will be fine. There are cars running 11s with that rear.

Also, the Aussies have been using the same rear for almost 3 years now, with 6 speed cars.

Exactly. Compare the G8 and the Camaro. Not that the GTO is a bad car, but the V platform it is too different from the Zeta platform, to call the Camaro, a new paneled GTO

But why can't we compare them? The Camaro has a few improvements and I do hate the GTO's hacked gas tank, but the cars are very similar. All we can compare the Camaro to is a 4,000 + pound 4 door family car? Now I am not knocking the G8 GT, I like them, but this is rather sad.

It is also sad to see the Mustang winning the lightweight race if only by a little. If they ever put a strong motor in the GT and improve the handling it has a built in advantage.

The Camaro has very little added content over the 4th gen, why couldn't they keep the weight down? The GTO is a little fat too. So if we bought cars like food based on $ per pound, the $18K GTO is running up against its sell by date @ $4.86 per pound and the fresh $33K Camaro is $9.19 per pound.

I might just have to go for the managers special.

How many didn't get sold?



I didn't defend anything, I stated a fact. You thought wrong. Sorry if you don't like being corrected. 4th gen f-bods, like you have, didn't exactly sell like hot cakes.

+1

I don't think the reason GM stopped making the F-Body was because they sold too many of them.

I've driven in one and they are very nicely made and handle very well. That's why I'm considering a G8, so I at least get a couple extra doors to go with the weight. My buddy has the 2006 model w/stall and tune. He runs 14.0s very consistently on street tires, LOL!

He needs to fire his tuner.

But why can't we compare them? The Camaro has a few improvements and I do hate the GTO's hacked gas tank, but the cars are very similar. All we can compare the Camaro to is a 4,000 + pound 4 door family car? Now I am not knocking the G8 GT, I like them, but this is rather sad.

It is also sad to see the Mustang winning the lightweight race if only by a little. If they ever put a strong motor in the GT and improve the handling it has a built in advantage.

The Camaro has very little added content over the 4th gen, why couldn't they keep the weight down? The GTO is a little fat too. So if we bought cars like food based on $ per pound, the $18K GTO is running up against its sell by date @ $4.86 per pound and the fresh $33K Camaro is $9.19 per pound.

I might just have to go for the managers special.


Take my G8, put it on a lift. Take the new Camaro, put it on a lift next to the G8.

The chassis is the same, save for a few inches of wheelbase. The suspension is virtually identical. Most of the parts can be swapped.

The auto trans? The same.

The diff? The same.

The 2009 GXP will even have the same LS3 and M6 as the 2010 Camaro.

The Camaro will be a few hundred pounds lighter than my family car.

Just thought this was interesting.. All those STILL complaining about how heavy this car is, along with the GTO.

Anyone read the newest Motor Trend with the Corvette ZR1 and 2008 Ferrari 599 GTB Fiorano comparo?

Anyone notice that the $354k Ferrari weighs in at 3,975lbs? That is a 2 seater supercar that costs hundreds of thousands of dollars, so why couldn't they get the weight on that car down?

Facts are simple, cars are getting heavier AND more powerful along with better designed suspensions etc.. so it all equals out

GET OVER IT!

It is also sad to see the Mustang winning the lightweight race if only by a little. If they ever put a strong motor in the GT and improve the handling it has a built in advantage.

At the rate Ford is going, by 2015 the Mustang GT may be able to compete with a 2010 Camaro SS in performance. So I don't think we have to worry about that. The 6th generation Camaro will most likely be lighter if the 5th gen sells well enough.


The Camaro has very little added content over the 4th gen, why couldn't they keep the weight down?

You're kidding right?
WAY bigger wheels/tires/brakes, overall taller and wider car, and not to mention its riding on the chassis of a large sports sedan. If it had its own one off chassis like the Fbodies did, then this would be different.

Just thought this was interesting.. All those STILL complaining about how heavy this car is, along with the GTO.

Anyone read the newest Motor Trend with the Corvette ZR1 and 2008 Ferrari 599 GTB Fiorano comparo?

Anyone notice that the $354k Ferrari weighs in at 3,975lbs? That is a 2 seater supercar that costs hundreds of thousands of dollars, so why couldn't they get the weight on that car down?

They were not trying to make a lightweight sports car. They wanted to make fast and luxurious GT super car. If they wanted to make it lightweight they could have, look at the F430 Scuderia, it comes in at just over 3000lbs.
The fact still remains that you cannot deny the laws of physics, making a car lighter improves its acceleration, braking, handling, and gas mileage.

Lightweight, stripped out cars are not what the public wants.

They want 6 to 10 airbags.

They want navigation and a 10 speaker stero.

They want power, heated seats covered in leather.

They want stiff, strong cars able to take a serious hit and protect them.

They want all the "necessities" and those things are heavy.

GM didn't design this car for the enthusiast, they designed it for the bulk of the buyers, the general public.

:mad:At the rate Ford is going, by 2015 the Mustang GT may be able to compete with a 2010 Camaro SS in performance. So I don't think we have to worry about that. The 6th generation Camaro will most likely be lighter if the 5th gen sells well enough.

I might be inclined to say this statement is true, but it will all depend on how much of the sales pie that the Camaro SS and Challenger RT takes from the Mustang GT. If the GT still significantly outsells both the RT and the SS , Ford probably will make small incremental increase's like in the past.

You're kidding right?
WAY bigger wheels/tires/brakes, overall taller and wider car, and not to mention its riding on the chassis of a large sports sedan. If it had its own one off chassis like the Fbodies did, then this would be different.

No I am not kidding. Is a taller wheel content? 20" wheels are bling IMO. The brakes I will give you. Being built on a larger platform is the main reason for the extra weight. GM has smaller rear drive platforms it could have used. Why didnt they?

The original pony car formula was a smaller lighter car that gave great acceleration and good handling with midsize engines. Chrysler was the first to use a full mid size platform and the '70 Barracuda and Challenger were a bit boat-like and performed exactly like the R/T and GTX as a result. Now both Chrysler and GM are building boatish pony cars. Of course the Challenger is the worst offender. By far the best looking of the new pony cars but a bit silly in size and weight.

I do like the Camaro but I sure wish it was 500 pounds less. Then I would be getting one for sure when my 335i lease expires. In fact I would be counting the days.

As it is now I will consider a modded GTO and maybe the G8 GXP since as everyone is saying is almost identical to the Camaro and has a more useful 4 doors. Or maybe just buy the 335i and mod it to run low 12s with simple tune mods.

And I do not accept cars getting heavier and heavier as an unavoidable fate of all new models.

Just thought this was interesting.. All those STILL complaining about how heavy this car is, along with the GTO.

Anyone read the newest Motor Trend with the Corvette ZR1 and 2008 Ferrari 599 GTB Fiorano comparo?

Anyone notice that the $354k Ferrari weighs in at 3,975lbs? That is a 2 seater supercar that costs hundreds of thousands of dollars, so why couldn't they get the weight on that car down?

Facts are simple, cars are getting heavier AND more powerful along with better designed suspensions etc.. so it all equals out

GET OVER IT!:werd: :nod:

Lightweight, stripped out cars are not what the public wants.

They want 6 to 10 airbags.

They want navigation and a 10 speaker stero.

They want power, heated seats covered in leather.

They want stiff, strong cars able to take a serious hit and protect them.

They want all the "necessities" and those things are heavy.

GM didn't design this car for the enthusiast, they designed it for the bulk of the buyers, the general public.True, it's not what I necessarily want/need but it is what Joe Public wants and if it helps sell more cars for Chevrolet/GM then it's ok by me. :nod:

True, it's not what I necessarily want/need but it is what Joe Public wants and if it helps sell more cars for Chevrolet/GM then it's ok by me. :nod:

:cheers:

That is what I mean. If I can buy a "new" Camaro, cheap, a few years from now, I'll be ecstatic!

:D

The IRS is good to go, and the GTO's don't break them very easily and the new camaros' will be even better

Whoever said there have only been three GTO's in the 12's stock thats untrue, there are multiple, it is definitely not unheard of to see a stock down to the paper filter 05-06 gto go 12's when driven well and the track conditions are favorable.

The new camaro can't be compared to the GTO, two different platforms....different engines, suspension, everything....

Whoever said there have only been three GTO's in the 12's stock thats untrue, there are multiple, it is definitely not unheard of to see a stock down to the paper filter 05-06 gto go 12's when driven well and the track conditions are favorable.Oh ok, I was just going by some of the lists on LS1GTO.com that showed that info...I would assume that there has to be more of the bone stock LS2 cars in the 12s in good air. :drive:

ls1gto.com's track time lists is a joke....I don't know if they keep up with that very regularly. That whole site has gone to hell anyways.

Just thought this was interesting.. All those STILL complaining about how heavy this car is, along with the GTO.

Anyone read the newest Motor Trend with the Corvette ZR1 and 2008 Ferrari 599 GTB Fiorano comparo?

Anyone notice that the $354k Ferrari weighs in at 3,975lbs? That is a 2 seater supercar that costs hundreds of thousands of dollars, so why couldn't they get the weight on that car down?

Facts are simple, cars are getting heavier AND more powerful along with better designed suspensions etc.. so it all equals out

GET OVER IT!

Exactly, and many people would be surprised to find out how much the new EVO and STI weigh, check it out, those tiny ass little cars are 3700-3900 lbs, and are still considered some of the best for handling

No I am not kidding. Is a taller wheel content? 20" wheels are bling IMO. The brakes I will give you. Being built on a larger platform is the main reason for the extra weight. GM has smaller rear drive platforms it could have used. Why didnt they?
They didn't have a smaller RWD platform that would seat 4 to my knowledge. But with that said I wish they could have built one, or modified the Kappa platform for the Camaro.


And I do not accept cars getting heavier and heavier as an unavoidable fate of all new models.
+1 Im all for making cars lighter.

Exactly, and many people would be surprised to find out how much the new EVO and STI weigh, check it out, those tiny ass little cars are 3700-3900 lbs, and are still considered some of the best for handling

I'm not sure where you are getting this from, but new STi's are 3400lbs and new EVO's are 3600lbs.

They didn't have a smaller RWD platform that would seat 4 to my knowledge. But with that said I wish they could have built one, or modified the Kappa platform for the Camaro.
.

What about the Epsilon II platform which does AWD?

http://www.motortrend.com/roadtests/sedans/112_0807_2009_opel_insignia_first_drive/feature_options_specs.html

3350 lbs? Couldn't they shoehorn a compacted LSx in there? Didn't they think of a longitudinal engine position option? Shame on them if not. World car indeed.

Or better yet how about a 4 seat Solstice with a little stretch? We already know the LS fits in there. And using this platform for the Camaro would have justified a real coupe version.

Let's see the Solstice is 2800 lbs. Let's say the LS3 and 2 back jump seats adds 4-500 pounds. So 3,300 pounds. What other car has 430 Horsepower at around this weight?

http://www.edmunds.com/new/2008/chevrolet/corvette/100890461/specs.html?mktcat=style+specs+page&kw=2008+chevrolet+corvette+100890461+style+specs+p age&mktid=ik344169

Well we wouldn't want the Camaro to challenge the Corvette at $15k less now would we?

I'm not sure where you are getting this from, but new STi's are 3400lbs and new EVO's are 3600lbs.Still pretty damn heavy for such relatively small vehicles. :nono:

I was wondering if any of you guys feel the same way about the new camaro. I am a huge gm fan but the car is not going to save them. Look at how big of a hit the gto was. The camaro is built by the same people and has irs. I like how it looks but there should be an option for a solid rear. Is the diff going to blow apart when you put upgrades on it like cts vs and gtos do. I am gm guy but ford is where I would go to buy a new car to built parts on and take to the track. Ford offers several different options for a fast off the floor car. Is gm going to have 2 option v6 or v8 that is no fun. Just my two cents

Because the 10 bolt and the 8.8 28 spline are so strong? Get some slicks on them and let's see how long those differentials last.

Because the 10 bolt and the 8.8 28 spline are so strong?Actually the 8.8 is pretty damn strong, even with only 28 spline axles. :nod:

Actually the 8.8 is pretty damn strong, even with only 28 spline axles. :nod:

Mmmm, I've seen several axles break when you put some slicks on.

Mmmm, I've seen several axles break when you put some slicks on.True, I guess a lot depends on power output, driver's skill, tire and track prep etc. :)

Time well tell if the Camaro will separate itself from the fate of the GTO. Being a GM fan I hope it does.
Weird everybody talks down about the mustang, but ford sells the crap out of the cars, even if they only have a 315hp V8. Ford will never dump the mustang. Funny how Gm dumped the camaro without even trying to do anything with the car. That leads me to believe that if there are poor sales of the Camaro for about say 3 years, the camaro will have the same fate as the GTO.
Have to say that GM has the best power plants around. That ls motor has really taken off since 1997.

Time well tell if the Camaro will separate itself from the fate of the GTO. Being a GM fan I hope it does.
Weird everybody talks down about the mustang, but ford sells the crap out of the cars, even if they only have a 315hp V8. Ford will never dump the mustang. Funny how Gm dumped the camaro without even trying to do anything with the car. That leads me to believe that if there are poor sales of the Camaro for about say 3 years, the camaro will have the same fate as the GTO.
Have to say that GM has the best power plants around. That ls motor has really taken off since 1997.
The GTO didn't suffer any "fate". It was slated for a 3 year production cycle with limited production each year.

LOL, the GTO was slated for a 3 year run when it came out...GM knew it wouldn't go longer then that because the australian factory was switching over to the new G8 platform....3 years was all that was left of the monaro so they only made the GTO for 3 years.

I like how it looks but there should be an option for a solid rear. Is the diff going to blow apart when you put upgrades on it like cts vs and gtos do.

Yeah, those 10 bolts on our LS1's sure are bullet proof!!!!!!!

/sarcasm.

Yeah, those 10 bolts on our LS1's sure are bullet proof!!!!!!!

/sarcasm.Actually, mine (stock gears, automatic, converter, low horsepower) has been bulletproof. :thumb: :nod: