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.650 double springs too much for this cam?

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Old 12-16-2008, 04:19 AM
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Default .650 double springs too much for this cam?

i have the chance to pick up some comp 921 springs cheap but i think they might be too much for the cam ill be running which has .591-.601 lift. what do you guys think? ill be running the stock lifters until i swap heads and possibly the stock pushrods temporarily
Old 12-16-2008, 04:43 AM
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I don't think they're too much at all, but they will offer you some breathing space.

Cheers,

Macca
Old 12-16-2008, 05:54 AM
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They will work, but i'd run PAC 1518 for that app.
Old 12-16-2008, 07:23 AM
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I run a 250/266-.651/.651-112 with the TSP.660 springs. And had no problems at all , but they were out pretty quick, about every 15,000 miles but that at a 7400 rpm rev.
Old 12-16-2008, 10:51 PM
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Lift isn't the only determining factor when selecting valve springs. What are the rest of the specs, what type, and what is the intended use? The Comp Cams 26921 is a good spring and not too much for most cases.
Old 12-16-2008, 10:58 PM
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Springs aren't ever "too much" for a cam. It's the lifters that a spring can be "too much" for. If a spring is pumping out too much pressure, it can collapse a lifter. Hence the reason for going to a solid valve train in very high lift setups.

Comp 921's are perfect for almost any hydraulic setup
Old 12-17-2008, 06:42 AM
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Thanks for the replies everyone!


Damian thats exactly what i was wondering,I was worried about collapsing one of the stock lifters with those springs..Thanks!
Old 12-17-2008, 07:26 AM
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Originally Posted by MattysTA
.….Damian thats exactly what i was wondering,I was worried about collapsing one of the stock lifters with those springs..Thanks!
You won't collapse a lifter with those, it will take much more than that. Here's an interesting test conducted by Crane and published in July 2007. A good hydraulic roller lifter can take much more spring pressure than most think.

Why Crane Cams Hydraulic Roller Lifters are Worth the Extra Cost!



As part of our continuing Product Development Program, Crane Cams’ product development team conducted an exhaustive series of evaluation tests aimed at finding areas of improvement for our hydraulic roller lifter family. We knew that the hydraulic mechanism has proven itself at 8400b RPM when used with a smooth operating rocker arm system such as the Crane Cams Shaft-Mount Rockers featuring the exclusive “polymer-matrix composite bearings,” but we decided to find out exactly how much abuse our hydraulic roller lifters could really take.



We initially decided to run a Spintron test simulating a typical offshore, “poker run” application, but extend the endurance time. Test parameters were as follows: .632” lift at the valve with a 248 degrees @ .050” lifter rise duration lobe; 1.7 rocker arms; 145# of seat pressure and 440# of open pressure; 5400 RPM constant test speed. The valve train was checked for wear every 10 hours and the engine was shut down every evening.



We ran this test profile for 50 hours, which is a target we use for marine applications. At the 50-hour point, everything looked good, so we decided to shoot for a total of 100 hours and continued the test. At 100 hours, everything still looked like it had after the first 10 hours! That was great and made us feel good about the lifters, but we wanted to “put a hurt” on the lifters and see how they held up.



We decided to increase the seat pressure to 175# and the open pressure to 535# to see how everything would hold up and see if we could “collapse” some lifters. We continued with the same cam lobe and the 5400 RPM continuous test speed. Engine oil was various types of 10W-30 oils. We decided to test various oils to see if there were any changes in noise, performance or wear. The engine continued to be inspected every 10 hours of operation. Everything continued to perform flawlessly. We started to hear a couple of seconds of lifter ticking upon start up, but that never lasted more than 2 or 3 seconds. After 20 hours, all of the lifters and cam lobes looked just as pristine as on our first inspection at the initial 10-hour mark.



We were happy with the 120 hours of abuse, but we weren’t seeing any wear, and this was starting to get boring. We pumped the seat pressure up to 205# and the open pressure went to 565#. We continued the same test speed of a constant 5400 RPM. There was no increase in the amount of lifter ticking after an overnight shutdown. Some would think that with 565# of open pressure working on at least 3 valves overnight that one would collapse, or at least take several seconds to “pump-up” on start up, but the ticking was very slight and went away after 2 to 3 seconds. The engine continued to run along happily for the next 20 hours! The inspection of parts was still showing everything pristine. At this point, we were extremely proud of the test results, but we still hadn’t put a “real hurt” on the lifters!



Note: There was still only very limited, slight “lifter tick” on start-up after an overnight stop. No evidence of hydraulic mechanism “collapse” was ever evident. We now had 140 hours of significant abuse on our valve train. If you consider that 5400 RPM in most any car in high gear will result in at least 120 MPH, our test valve train had just completed 16,800 miles at 5400 RPM.



To get more pressure, we had to change to taller springs. We set the seat pressure at 240# and the open pressure at 615#. These are the kind of pressures that are used with mechanical roller applications in “Sprint car racing” and “Drag racing.” We continued with the marine simulation at a constant 5400 RPM. After 8 hours, we started to hear an audible “tick.” We disassembled the engine for inspection and found that the lifters were still fine; we had started to lose a cam lobe. One hundred forty-eight (148) hours of testing at 5400 RPM had just ended. Twenty-eight hours had been completed with seat pressures exceeding 200# and open pressures exceeding 560#.



Further inspection revealed that we probably were getting some valve train separation, and the separation probably “wounded” the cam lobe. The valve train separation was probably the result of pushrod “flex” due to the high spring pressures placed on the hydraulic lifters. The whole purpose of the test was to run an entire valve train typical of components used with hydraulic roller lifters. We did not expect to be running spring seat pressures of 240# and open pressures of 615# on a hydraulic valve train! We will conduct this test again with pushrods typical of what would be used in a Sprint car or serious Drag car.



All in all, we are extremely pleased with the performance of Crane Cams hydraulic roller lifters. When you combine the RPM potential (which we have seen at the track with customers’ engines) with the extreme durability that this test confirmed; it is easy to see why serious performance engine builders demand Crane Cams hydraulic roller lifters and are willing to pay a little extra for them!



Additionally, this test “blew apart” most of the comments of “website tech experts” about how too much spring pressure will “collapse” a hydraulic lifter mechanism. It won’t collapse a “good hydraulic lifter mechanism.” All of the higher spring pressure tests were done with 10W-30 oils and 70# of oil pressure. We are extremely confident that the same results would occur with 5W-30 oil. Our next series of tests will confirm that, as well as some new “tricks we have up our sleeves.” We will stay in touch! Thanks for your business!
Old 12-17-2008, 07:32 AM
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stock pushrods? thats a no-no
Old 12-17-2008, 08:08 AM
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Originally Posted by dre2013
stock pushrods? thats a no-no
Not the best thing to do, but it can be done.
Old 12-17-2008, 08:34 AM
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I dont mean to hijack the thread but i have TEA golds (same spring as Patriot and PRC) which are good to .650. With the cam in my sig...how long should they last?
Old 12-17-2008, 08:48 AM
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thats a pretty small cam they'll probably last a long time
Old 12-17-2008, 08:49 AM
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Originally Posted by Damian
Springs aren't ever "too much" for a cam. It's the lifters that a spring can be "too much" for. If a spring is pumping out too much pressure, it can collapse a lifter. Hence the reason for going to a solid valve train in very high lift setups.

Comp 921's are perfect for almost any hydraulic setup
As long as one uses a spring designed for a hydraulic roller application in a hydraulic roller valvetrain, lifter collapse will never be an issue.

Intended use, cam specifications, and valvetrain limitations will dictate the best spring for the job.
Old 12-17-2008, 08:50 AM
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Originally Posted by badaSS346
I dont mean to hijack the thread but i have TEA golds (same spring as Patriot and PRC) which are good to .650. With the cam in my sig...how long should they last?
No way to tell for sure without testing them. One could guess, but it would be just that.
Old 12-17-2008, 11:06 AM
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Originally Posted by 405HP_Z06
You won't collapse a lifter with those, it will take much more than that. Here's an interesting test conducted by Crane and published in July 2007. A good hydraulic roller lifter can take much more spring pressure than most think.
They put a BBC on a spintron, and didn't notice "valvetrain seperation"? I guess if they had monitored valve motion, the test may have concluded otherwise...

These are the same guys who market and sell "Quick Lift" rockers.
Old 12-17-2008, 11:45 AM
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Originally Posted by KCS
They put a BBC on a spintron, and didn't notice "valvetrain seperation"? I guess if they had monitored valve motion, the test may have concluded otherwise...
Concluded otherwise.....? The test can be 'nitpicked' to death but considering we are discussing valve spring load on hydraulic roller lifters it's a good point of reference.


OFF TOPIC-----------

Originally Posted by KCS
These are the same guys who market and sell "Quick Lift" rockers.
I've been running the Crane 'Quick Lift' rockers for the last 60,000 miles in my Z06 with stock valvetrain and now with Dart 225's. I've heard many opinions and I've read all of the information Miller has published on 'Mid lift geometry' along with most other rocker manufacturers 'strategies'. I can say I've had NO issues what-so-ever while running these Crane rockers. JMHO and experience.

OFF TOPIC-----------

Last edited by 405HP_Z06; 12-17-2008 at 12:00 PM.
Old 12-17-2008, 10:29 PM
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Originally Posted by 405HP_Z06
Concluded otherwise.....? The test can be 'nitpicked' to death but considering we are discussing valve spring load on hydraulic roller lifters it's a good point of reference.
It's hard to believe, over 600lbs of spring pressure didn't cause any problems on a hydraulic lifter. Not necessarily with reliability, but power output and/or accuracy in following the cam profile. Neither of which were measured. Not only that, but we are left to assume they applied typical preload.

Given that it is a company trying to prove it's own product and validate the "extra cost", doesn't help credibility either.


Originally Posted by 405HP_Z06
OFF TOPIC-----------



I've been running the Crane 'Quick Lift' rockers for the last 60,000 miles in my Z06 with stock valvetrain and now with Dart 225's. I've heard many opinions and I've read all of the information Miller has published on 'Mid lift geometry' along with most other rocker manufacturers 'strategies'. I can say I've had NO issues what-so-ever while running these Crane rockers. JMHO and experience.

OFF TOPIC-----------

Fact of the matter is that the "Quick Lift" geometry places certain dynamics in the wrong place and time. Just because you don't have any issues with your stock valvetrain, doesn't mean its a good design. I have seen an oil pump spacer installed upside down on a 408, effectively cutting the oil passage that feeds into the engine in half, and it had no issues. Had it been a more radical engine, it probably wouldn't have survived. Start pushing the capabilities of the system in the pursuit of power, and you'll run into issues quicker than a more ideal "strategy" for rocker geometry.
Old 12-17-2008, 10:31 PM
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PRC Gold .660's here w/ Torquer 2 - don't even eclipse .600 (max .598), they'll be fine, and provide some "space" for future/BIGGER mods.
Old 12-18-2008, 07:01 AM
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Originally Posted by KCS

Given that it is a company trying to prove it's own product and validate the "extra cost", doesn't help credibility either.
Correct me if I am wrong, but I read that the Crane billets are built for them by Morel.
Old 12-18-2008, 09:27 AM
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Originally Posted by KCS
It's hard to believe, over 600lbs of spring pressure didn't cause any problems on a hydraulic lifter. Not necessarily with reliability, but power output and/or accuracy in following the cam profile. Neither of which were measured. Not only that, but we are left to assume they applied typical preload.

Given that it is a company trying to prove it's own product and validate the "extra cost", doesn't help credibility either.
They were not testing power output, but rather the impact of valve spring load on a hydraulic roller lifter. Concerning what was measured, what you state could have been measured but not included in the test summary. Stating it wasn't measured is an ASSUMPTION.

This was a data point to help illustrate to the OP the valve springs he is proposing will not collapse a hydraulic roller lifter.


Originally Posted by KCS
Fact of the matter is that the "Quick Lift" geometry places certain dynamics in the wrong place and time. Just because you don't have any issues with your stock valvetrain, doesn't mean its a good design. I have seen an oil pump spacer installed upside down on a 408, effectively cutting the oil passage that feeds into the engine in half, and it had no issues. Had it been a more radical engine, it probably wouldn't have survived. Start pushing the capabilities of the system in the pursuit of power, and you'll run into issues quicker than a more ideal "strategy" for rocker geometry.
Doesn't mean it's bad either. I have a street car/weekend warrior, not a race car campaigned at national competitive events. I do frequent the road course for HPDE's where I spin the engine to 6800 RPM. I have never had an engine related issue in 71,xxx miles since the car was new. Approximately 60,xxx miles of the 71,xxx were with the Crane rockers and Crane 144833-16 valve springs.

Pushing the power envelope will cause one to discover the flaw in any part or design that's substandard for the task, agreed. We can discuss theory all day long, but what I have used/experienced has shown no flaw in the Crane rocker design. Can you cite any specific cases where this product was proven faulty, specifically contributable to the 'quick lift' design?

Last edited by 405HP_Z06; 12-18-2008 at 12:37 PM.



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