Meth Tuning Question
12-23-2008, 06:30 PM
#1
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Meth Tuning Question I just ordered a Snow Performance stage 2 kit with a 2.5 gallon tank and have a few questions. What are the main things I will be able to do with the meth. Last night we were driving around checking out how well the new hole I cut int he grill was working. It was 39* outside and my IATs went up to around 70* on a long pull. I am only running about 6lbs because I am limited by the 42lb svo injectors that are working at a max 89% duty cycle. The A/F stayed around 11.3-11.4. We ran the timing up all the way to 21* last night and never had any KR.
So my question is what should I do as far as timing?
Add boost?
How much timing, what is the max?
Should the A/F stay the same with the meth?
I don't know how much power the car is making. After we went from 16* to 21* it really woke it up. It hits full boost hard at 3k rpm.
So my question is what should I do as far as timing?
Add boost?
How much timing, what is the max?
Should the A/F stay the same with the meth?
I don't know how much power the car is making. After we went from 16* to 21* it really woke it up. It hits full boost hard at 3k rpm.
12-23-2008, 06:45 PM
#2
I am still new so one of the more experienced guys will probally be more help full. I would start by pulling back the Timing a bit and adding boost. Once you get the boost up too a good level then start working your timing up. I dont think you will see a large change in your AFR. But like i said i am still very new with this and could be totally wrong.
12-23-2008, 06:53 PM
#3
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I am limited on boost because my injectors and pump are near there limit. I am guessing that the meth will be able to dump enough extra fuel for a pound or two. My main goal is to hit a 10 second pass on the 3rd when I go to the track. I ran 11.0s over and over with my cam and nitrous setup, it really began to **** me off. lol
12-23-2008, 07:05 PM
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there are no set limits. to many factors to have set limits. the timing is decided by the knock sensors/track times. afr is decided by egt. if you are already at 11.4afr i would not turn up the boost as the injectors are already maxed out. get bigger injectors and crank up the boost.
Last edited by night ryder; 12-23-2008 at 07:21 PM.
12-23-2008, 08:01 PM
#6
there are no set limits. to many factors to have set limits. the timing is decided by the knock sensors/track times. afr is decided by egt. if you are already at 11.4afr i would not turn up the boost as the injectors are already maxed out. get bigger injectors and crank up the boost.
We will need to know what your combo is before we can give you real sound advice. I will however say that it sounds like you could get another couple of #s of boost as well as more timing.
Logging as you go up will be helpful, Depending on how much meth you are spraying will dictate you A/F. I would start at around 10.5:1 or 10.7:1 to start. Meth has more O2 than gas so you'll need tune a little on the fat side.
My 347 ran 8#s w/meth and 42# inj at 90% dc and 21dg timing made 500/510 w/ a maggie.
Doug
12-23-2008, 10:07 PM
#7
I just ordered a Snow Performance stage 2 kit with a 2.5 gallon tank and have a few questions. What are the main things I will be able to do with the meth. Last night we were driving around checking out how well the new hole I cut int he grill was working. It was 39* outside and my IATs went up to around 70* on a long pull. I am only running about 6lbs because I am limited by the 42lb svo injectors that are working at a max 89% duty cycle. The A/F stayed around 11.3-11.4. We ran the timing up all the way to 21* last night and never had any KR.
So my question is what should I do as far as timing?
Add boost?
How much timing, what is the max?
Should the A/F stay the same with the meth?
I don't know how much power the car is making. After we went from 16* to 21* it really woke it up. It hits full boost hard at 3k rpm.
So my question is what should I do as far as timing?
Add boost?
How much timing, what is the max?
Should the A/F stay the same with the meth?
I don't know how much power the car is making. After we went from 16* to 21* it really woke it up. It hits full boost hard at 3k rpm.
Are you asking what to change in the tune once you get the meth kit and still have 42 lbers? If you havent bought some larger injector yet, that would have been my first purchase.
You are running a bit of timing, I personally would not add anymore. If you do turn the boost up, most tuners would run less timing.
Add the methanol kit and see how much it richens it up on the wideband(naturally it should richen), you will want a lower AFR then with meth then without. I usually leave mine in the mid-high 10's with meth.
As far as engine tuning different people approach it different ways, you can take the same combo to two different "good" tuners and get two completely different styles. Some will keep the boost low and run more timing, some will run higher boost numbers and less timing. A rule of thumb that some people use is subtracting 1.5* of timing for every psi of boost off of a n/a tune-up.
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12-23-2008, 11:42 PM
#8
A/F should typically be around 10.5:1 with meth.
For reference I am running 10 lbs with A/F around 10.5 with 18 degrees of timing. I tried adding a few degrees of timing on the dyno and didn't pick up much power so I turned it back down to 18.
You need to see at what point adding timing stops making significant gains in power and leave it there. There's no point in running right on the ragged edge for just a few hp, but the actual timing number is going to depend on your specific setup.
You really should get some 60's. You can use the meth to make as an additional fuel source but most prefer to use it as a safety feature rather than a fuel source.
Where are you running on the 3rd? I was looking at going to SAR, but it's only 1/8 mile that night. I'll be in Liberty tomorrow to see the in laws. You going to HRP?
For reference I am running 10 lbs with A/F around 10.5 with 18 degrees of timing. I tried adding a few degrees of timing on the dyno and didn't pick up much power so I turned it back down to 18.
You need to see at what point adding timing stops making significant gains in power and leave it there. There's no point in running right on the ragged edge for just a few hp, but the actual timing number is going to depend on your specific setup.
You really should get some 60's. You can use the meth to make as an additional fuel source but most prefer to use it as a safety feature rather than a fuel source.
Where are you running on the 3rd? I was looking at going to SAR, but it's only 1/8 mile that night. I'll be in Liberty tomorrow to see the in laws. You going to HRP?
12-24-2008, 06:15 AM
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A/F should typically be around 10.5:1 with meth.
For reference I am running 10 lbs with A/F around 10.5 with 18 degrees of timing. I tried adding a few degrees of timing on the dyno and didn't pick up much power so I turned it back down to 18.
You need to see at what point adding timing stops making significant gains in power and leave it there. There's no point in running right on the ragged edge for just a few hp, but the actual timing number is going to depend on your specific setup.
You really should get some 60's. You can use the meth to make as an additional fuel source but most prefer to use it as a safety feature rather than a fuel source.
Where are you running on the 3rd? I was looking at going to SAR, but it's only 1/8 mile that night. I'll be in Liberty tomorrow to see the in laws. You going to HRP?
For reference I am running 10 lbs with A/F around 10.5 with 18 degrees of timing. I tried adding a few degrees of timing on the dyno and didn't pick up much power so I turned it back down to 18.
You need to see at what point adding timing stops making significant gains in power and leave it there. There's no point in running right on the ragged edge for just a few hp, but the actual timing number is going to depend on your specific setup.
You really should get some 60's. You can use the meth to make as an additional fuel source but most prefer to use it as a safety feature rather than a fuel source.
Where are you running on the 3rd? I was looking at going to SAR, but it's only 1/8 mile that night. I'll be in Liberty tomorrow to see the in laws. You going to HRP?
I am going to build an entire new fuel system, I just can't spend $2k on it right now before Christmas. 75lb injectors with an Eliminator pump We were just testing out the 21* of timing because it was so cold. It will be turned back down to 16* the next time I drive it.
Here is a link to my setup https://ls1tech.com/forums/forced-in...ytp-build.html
So would putting in the largest nozzle, checking A/F then adding a little boost to get it into the 10.5 - 11.0 area be a good place to start? Then adjust fuel and timing from there.
12-24-2008, 07:00 AM
#11
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Methanol_fuel
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Methanol
12-24-2008, 07:08 AM
#12
You have to run a mixture of around 6.7:1 because meth has a much lower BTU than gas. But, it also has a much higher octane rating. Octane is nothing more than a rating of a fuels ability to resist detonation. So, in reality, you can run a HIGHER A/F RATIO using methanol, than you can with gasoline. You can also run more timing.
So, with meth, and you injectors at 89%, you can spray the meth, and if you spray enough of it, you can drop the amount of gas you're injecting, either by VE table adjustment, or MAF, whatever, and get your IDC down. Just MAKE SURE, if you're using the meth as a fuel YOU NEVER RUN OUT.
12-24-2008, 08:06 AM
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So, with meth, and you injectors at 89%, you can spray the meth, and if you spray enough of it, you can drop the amount of gas you're injecting, either by VE table adjustment, or MAF, whatever, and get your IDC down. Just MAKE SURE, if you're using the meth as a fuel YOU NEVER RUN OUT.
I really just want to do this for the track, I don't plan on using it on everyday. Thanks for your input.
12-24-2008, 09:33 AM
#14
Not true, neither "has 02". Neither is an oxygen bearing compound.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Methanol_fuel
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Methanol
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Methanol_fuel
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Methanol
To the op The meth only comes into play while in boost if your driving around town just cruising you wont be using any meth.
Doug
12-24-2008, 12:05 PM
#15
im confused? is the kit on the car and working yet? if not go ahead and do that .
if you add timing and make power you are req'ing more fuel same as if you add boost and make more power
if you are on a built motor you are wasting all that previous money fooling with just 6#
also there is nothing costing $2000 that you immediately need to do to your fuel system.
look at my sticky in the fuel section and add as second walbro for about $125 bux. mototron 60's are a great investment for $400 but as said the meth will add to your total fuel capability. at full boost on my car i am spraying 15% of my total fueling through meth nozzles
if you have a rising rate regulator you can even keep with the 42's and set them to a higher base pressure
turn the meth kit wide open and raise boost until the afr cleans up to say 11.0, but dont go over say 15# boost as i prefer mixing in better fuel at that point for reliability.
if you add timing and make power you are req'ing more fuel same as if you add boost and make more power
if you are on a built motor you are wasting all that previous money fooling with just 6#
also there is nothing costing $2000 that you immediately need to do to your fuel system.
look at my sticky in the fuel section and add as second walbro for about $125 bux. mototron 60's are a great investment for $400 but as said the meth will add to your total fuel capability. at full boost on my car i am spraying 15% of my total fueling through meth nozzles
if you have a rising rate regulator you can even keep with the 42's and set them to a higher base pressure
turn the meth kit wide open and raise boost until the afr cleans up to say 11.0, but dont go over say 15# boost as i prefer mixing in better fuel at that point for reliability.
12-24-2008, 12:29 PM
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im confused? is the kit on the car and working yet? if not go ahead and do that .
if you add timing and make power you are req'ing more fuel same as if you add boost and make more power
if you are on a built motor you are wasting all that previous money fooling with just 6#
also there is nothing costing $2000 that you immediately need to do to your fuel system.
look at my sticky in the fuel section and add as second walbro for about $125 bux. mototron 60's are a great investment for $400 but as said the meth will add to your total fuel capability. at full boost on my car i am spraying 15% of my total fueling through meth nozzles
if you have a rising rate regulator you can even keep with the 42's and set them to a higher base pressure
turn the meth kit wide open and raise boost until the afr cleans up to say 11.0, but dont go over say 15# boost as i prefer mixing in better fuel at that point for reliability.
if you add timing and make power you are req'ing more fuel same as if you add boost and make more power
if you are on a built motor you are wasting all that previous money fooling with just 6#
also there is nothing costing $2000 that you immediately need to do to your fuel system.
look at my sticky in the fuel section and add as second walbro for about $125 bux. mototron 60's are a great investment for $400 but as said the meth will add to your total fuel capability. at full boost on my car i am spraying 15% of my total fueling through meth nozzles
if you have a rising rate regulator you can even keep with the 42's and set them to a higher base pressure
turn the meth kit wide open and raise boost until the afr cleans up to say 11.0, but dont go over say 15# boost as i prefer mixing in better fuel at that point for reliability.
With another walbro the stock lines are big enough to deliver all the fuel needed? What would I do with a regulator? Also what are 60# injectors good to? I was worried about maxing them out that is why I was planning on 75lbs.
12-24-2008, 12:39 PM
#17
guess it depends on your long term goals, though i dont think ive spent 2k on my fuel system to date.
so your motor is pobably solid to 850 to the tires, that would be really pushing it for stock lines, can get a rail kit from summit for 180 and are nice pieces. mototron 60's have the capability to make it this far as well.
if you are happy with say 750 then you could make it with the stock rails
if you had a rising rate regulator in the return you will be able to bring the fuel pressure up with boost, and extend, greatly extend the potential of any injectors.
i have used this one for years and its always performed perfectly. kirban 5071
so your motor is pobably solid to 850 to the tires, that would be really pushing it for stock lines, can get a rail kit from summit for 180 and are nice pieces. mototron 60's have the capability to make it this far as well.
if you are happy with say 750 then you could make it with the stock rails
if you had a rising rate regulator in the return you will be able to bring the fuel pressure up with boost, and extend, greatly extend the potential of any injectors.
i have used this one for years and its always performed perfectly. kirban 5071
12-24-2008, 12:46 PM
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guess it depends on your long term goals, though i dont think ive spent 2k on my fuel system to date.
so your motor is pobably solid to 850 to the tires, that would be really pushing it for stock lines, can get a rail kit from summit for 180 and are nice pieces. mototron 60's have the capability to make it this far as well.
if you are happy with say 750 then you could make it with the stock rails
if you had a rising rate regulator in the return you will be able to bring the fuel pressure up with boost, and extend, greatly extend the potential of any injectors.
i have used this one for years and its always performed perfectly. kirban 5071
so your motor is pobably solid to 850 to the tires, that would be really pushing it for stock lines, can get a rail kit from summit for 180 and are nice pieces. mototron 60's have the capability to make it this far as well.
if you are happy with say 750 then you could make it with the stock rails
if you had a rising rate regulator in the return you will be able to bring the fuel pressure up with boost, and extend, greatly extend the potential of any injectors.
i have used this one for years and its always performed perfectly. kirban 5071
My main goal with the car was close to 800rwhp but mainly to trap 140+ in the 1/4. I have fuel rails already. Could the regulator be hooked up to the line that vents the tank as a return? Thanks for you help by the way.
12-24-2008, 12:53 PM
#19
yes, a line is a line, but you probably need to gut whatever is on the tank end of that line.. i cant remember, mine is just removed completely.
also you will need to remove and block off the original return line / regulator so it doesnt override the new one.
for a little bit more money you can run a fresh pressure line and use the stock pressure line as the return,
.. but now were getting more complicated and involved... not my original intent.. i just wanted to get you going w/ more bost with the meth kit wich is totally do-able with everything you have now. (once the kit is installed and dialed up) and give you time to save for the next step of stuff.
also you will need to remove and block off the original return line / regulator so it doesnt override the new one.
for a little bit more money you can run a fresh pressure line and use the stock pressure line as the return,
.. but now were getting more complicated and involved... not my original intent.. i just wanted to get you going w/ more bost with the meth kit wich is totally do-able with everything you have now. (once the kit is installed and dialed up) and give you time to save for the next step of stuff.
