Automotive News, Media & Press - OMG! America can make decent sedans




LEO
01-18-2009, 07:23 AM
OMG! Is America actually building sedans that people would want to be seen driving rather than renting? Both the 2010 Ford Taurus and the Chrysler 200C
are a great improvement over what is offered now, with the exception of the G8. Oh and please don't get on here and tell me the last great American sedan was that budget rental car the '05 Pontiac Bonneville GXP.:eyes:
Hopefully the interiors of these two new offerings will match the level of their exteriors. Too bad they had to be threatened with their death or near death in order to start designing vehicles that are attractive to consumers and not just a, "Well... that's all I could afford.", vehicle.


LEO
01-18-2009, 07:55 AM
Any moderators out there feel free to delete the word an from the title in this thread. What can I say it was too early sunday morning and I hadn't even had my first cup of coffee.:emb:

LS1LT1
01-18-2009, 03:11 PM
OMG! America can make decent sedansYes, yes they can (and do). :nod:


Irunelevens
01-18-2009, 03:33 PM
Yeah, I recently saw the new Taurus and I too think it looks promising. Let's see if the overall car actually does what the exterior promises.

Blakbird24
01-18-2009, 03:47 PM
They have been for a few years now. Well at least GM has. I would have hoped that Ford and Chrysler would have followed their lead by now. My wife's 2007 G6 is every bit as nice as a 2007 Camry or Accord...in fact the interior in the G6 is of far higher quality with alot less hard plastic than either the Toyota or the Honda. It also has more room than both cars, and get's better gas mileage than both while being faster. Keep in mind, that's the G6 released in 2005...the 2008 Malibu puts that G6 to shame.

Things are turning around, but is it too late?

LEO
01-18-2009, 04:07 PM
Gotta agree the '08 Malibu's seem pretty nice.

RedBeauty84ZX
01-18-2009, 05:04 PM
The new Taurus does seem promising....hopefully Ford dosnt throw a bunch of low quality crap in it at the last minute like they have been known to do. Otherwise it appears to be a great competitor for the big 3 Japanese sedans...

caseypayne69
01-20-2009, 11:53 AM
They have been for a few years now. Well at least GM has. I would have hoped that Ford and Chrysler would have followed their lead by now. My wife's 2007 G6 is every bit as nice as a 2007 Camry or Accord...in fact the interior in the G6 is of far higher quality with alot less hard plastic than either the Toyota or the Honda. It also has more room than both cars, and get's better gas mileage than both while being faster. Keep in mind, that's the G6 released in 2005...the 2008 Malibu puts that G6 to shame.

Things are turning around, but is it too late?
Not to be a punk but Ford is ahead of GM in quality. ANd if you want links, just ask or look up 2008 Quality awards. Ford tied Toyota and Honda while GM is a couple steps back.

ICEMAN 31
01-20-2009, 11:46 PM
I am guessing this is a thread for the under 40 grand sedan, because to me the lincoln town car is the defention of the best sedan ever made. A ride whose comfort is second to none, and being a kid who was raised by a dad who had a limo buisness, the only car I can think of that can take 200,000 miles in just one year and not have any issues or not even a crease in the leather. Even right now he has an 06 town car in his garage with 305,000 miles on it and only a radiator replaces and looks like it has 0 miles on it. And I had a 95 town car that had close to 450 thousand miles and I can honestly say it never failed me and only went through 2 window motors and the rest was routine maintanence. These are all limo cars so thats why they get so many miles in so little time

Irunelevens
01-21-2009, 12:52 AM
It's a great sedan if you want to feel like you're being taken for a ride, even if you're driving. For people that want to actually feel like they're driving something, a Town Car simply won't do. But I will say that they are a pleasure to ride in.

Jakes Dad
01-21-2009, 01:03 PM
OMG! Is America actually building sedans that people would want to be seen driving rather than renting? Both the 2010 Ford Taurus and the Chrysler 200C
are a great improvement over what is offered now, with the exception of the G8. Oh and please don't get on here and tell me the last great American sedan was that budget rental car the '05 Pontiac Bonneville GXP.:eyes:
Hopefully the interiors of these two new offerings will match the level of their exteriors. Too bad they had to be threatened with their death or near death in order to start designing vehicles that are attractive to consumers and not just a, "Well... that's all I could afford.", vehicle.


For you to make such a statement you obviously have some ideas on what some GREAT NON AMERICAN sedans have been. Would you please take the time and throw them out here for discussion? :D

:angel: Jakes Dad

phirepower
01-21-2009, 01:07 PM
Not to be a punk but Ford is ahead of GM in quality. ANd if you want links, just ask or look up 2008 Quality awards. Ford tied Toyota and Honda while GM is a couple steps back.

Those awards are meaningless to me. I own a fourth Gen F-body, does anyone in here really think I care all that much about my interior? You get what you pay for, as long as there are decent seats, and a nice stereo I am happy. I don't want/ need telescoping steering wheels, 6 way power seats, Navigation (although I do like it) CVT, I just want a nice looking, REASONABLY PRICED vehicle, that is built with simple enough components and design telemetry that I don't have to mortgage my home to repair it or modify it

JD_AMG
01-21-2009, 02:57 PM
For you to make such a statement you obviously have some ideas on what some GREAT NON AMERICAN sedans have been. Would you please take the time and throw them out here for discussion? :D

:angel: Jakes Dad

BMWs
Mercedes
Audis
Infinity G35/G37
higher end Lexuses (IS models)
WRXs

You know, sedans that haul people and are actually fun to drive?

JD_AMG
01-21-2009, 02:57 PM
Not to be a punk but Ford is ahead of GM in quality. ANd if you want links, just ask or look up 2008 Quality awards. Ford tied Toyota and Honda while GM is a couple steps back.

We are talking about sedans, not trucks.

It's a great sedan if you want to feel like you're being taken for a ride, even if you're driving. For people that want to actually feel like they're driving something, a Town Car simply won't do. But I will say that they are a pleasure to ride in.

+10000000
I've had the displeasure of driving a town car :barf:. Ok, I understand its just supposed to be a reliable, big people hauler, and by god it does its job well but its light years away from being the "best" anything. ICEMAN 31 go take a CTS for a test drive...

dakkrin
01-21-2009, 03:49 PM
BMWs
Mercedes
Audis
Infinity G35/G37
higher end Lexuses (IS models)
WRXs

You know, sedans that haul people and are actually fun to drive?

Those arent exactly cheap cars...i think the Cadillac CTS-V, Pontiac G8, and G6, and even the Grand Am are (were)great cars...also i hear the dodge charger is pretty good and the lincoln town car

Jakes Dad
01-21-2009, 04:05 PM
BMWs
Mercedes
Audis
Infinity G35/G37
higher end Lexuses (IS models)
WRXs

You know, sedans that haul people and are actually fun to drive?
--------------------------------------------------------------------------

Unfortunately, none of those cars hold a candle to the TOP SELLING sedans the folks in the US buy. But you want more fun to drive cars from the American car builders - OK!

I think recently, Caddy has been doing a good job of bringing fun and driving pleasure to the sedan.

For the american auto industry to build something there needs to already be a market for a product. Or they think there is a market for something so they build it. I think the G8 is a prime example of a car built for a market that really doesn't exist. In my opinion fun and sedan don't mix.

A family sedan is around 25 K, seats 5, and has a trunk. This is based on a family of four, one income, with an income of say 50 - 65K. I can't see too many folks in this income level spending the money required on your fun to drive list, yet haul people.

:engarde: my opinion

:angel: Jakes Dad

Irunelevens
01-21-2009, 04:41 PM
And that opinion is why the Big 3 lost market share, and just had to be bailed out.

LEO
01-21-2009, 06:41 PM
For you to make such a statement you obviously have some ideas on what some GREAT NON AMERICAN sedans have been. Would you please take the time and throw them out here for discussion? :D

:angel: Jakes Dad

I think Mercedes makes the best sedans around. They have second to none build quality, a wide variety of motors from mild to wild, great styling, each model has an original look to it (C, E, S, & CLS), they handle well without being jarring like the BMW's, and the interiors can't be beat. Plus they cover a wide price range from 29K to 180K - a little something for everybody.

Jakes Dad
01-21-2009, 06:55 PM
And that opinion is why the Big 3 lost market share, and just had to be bailed out.


They didn't need to be bailed out. File BK. Everyone thats retired or still working under a UNION contract gets FXXXXX. Every supplier gets FXXXXX. Every dealer gets FXXXXX. And in less than two years 2 more million Americans are out of work.

You don't own or drive a family sedan. I still value your opinion. I'll bet if you were able to find the place you vote at, you voted for change. That's ok too :chug: You'll be putting up with this SXXX far longer then I will live..:D

:angel: Jakes Dad

Irunelevens
01-21-2009, 07:40 PM
They didn't need to be bailed out. File BK. Everyone thats retired or still working under a UNION contract gets FXXXXX. Every supplier gets FXXXXX. Every dealer gets FXXXXX. And in less than two years 2 more million Americans are out of work.

You don't own or drive a family sedan. I still value your opinion. I'll bet if you were able to find the place you vote at, you voted for change. That's ok too :chug: You'll be putting up with this SXXX far longer then I will live..:D

:angel: Jakes Dad

Your posts only make sense half of the time... but nobody can argue that the Big 3 (GM in particular) spent too much time/energy/money building too many cars that people didn't want to buy, and too little time/energy/money building cars that people actually did want to buy. And in the meantime everybody that wanted what they didn't build developed their own preferences and opinions. Then when GM comes late to the game with stuff that people would actually want, they wonder why nobody buys it.

JD_AMG
01-21-2009, 08:12 PM
Unfortunately, none of those cars hold a candle to the TOP SELLING sedans the folks in the US buy.
Wont hold a candle in what sense? :|


I think recently, Caddy has been doing a good job of bringing fun and driving pleasure to the sedan.

Exactly, they have been making cars (namely the CTS) similar to the ones I listed and have been selling like hot cakes until recently.


For the american auto industry to build something there needs to already be a market for a product. Or they think there is a market for something so they build it. I think the G8 is a prime example of a car built for a market that really doesn't exist.

The problem with the G8 is the timing, the economy is in the shitter and no one is buying cars.

In my opinion fun and sedan don't mix.

Clearly you have never driven any of the above cars. (G8 and CTS included)


A family sedan is around 25 K, seats 5, and has a trunk. This is based on a family of four, one income, with an income of say 50 - 65K. I can't see too many folks in this income level spending the money required on your fun to drive list, yet haul people.
Right, and a car is just a vehicle with 4 wheels that transports you from A to B, and there is no difference between any of them, and there is no passion involved.

silplu83
01-21-2009, 11:37 PM
http://www.caranddriver.com/reviews/hot_lists/car_shopping/green_machines/2010_ford_fusion_hybrid_short_take_road_test

ICEMAN 31
01-22-2009, 12:22 AM
+10000000
I've had the displeasure of driving a town car :barf:. Ok, I understand its just supposed to be a reliable, big people hauler, and by god it does its job well but its light years away from being the "best" anything. ICEMAN 31 go take a CTS for a test drive...[/QUOTE]


I like the CTS, the new styling is top notch and its great but I feel like I am going to break it. Thats me I use to box heavily and am a pretty big guy so I find bigger sedans better. Was raised around 70 and 80's cadillacs and continentals and impalas to me a cts is like they added two doors to a coupe, its dainty. I will agree that in elegance and trinkets and styling the cts is by far better. But when it comes to reliability, comfort, overall how well every part of the car holds up over time, not just engine, there the cts is left miles back by the town car.

I guess its more of if you truly been around these cars for a long time (almost 30 years for me). Like the fbody, their are better cars and nicer interiors and this and that but you get that feeling when you drive it that only your TA delivers. So what I am saying is I am biased to the older land yachts. I do like the new STS though

LS1LT1
01-22-2009, 01:08 AM
I am guessing this is a thread for the under 40 grand sedan, because to me the lincoln town car is the defention of the best sedan ever made. A ride whose comfort is second to none, and being a kid who was raised by a dad who had a limo buisness, the only car I can think of that can take 200,000 miles in just one year and not have any issues or not even a crease in the leather. Even right now he has an 06 town car in his garage with 305,000 miles on it and only a radiator replaces and looks like it has 0 miles on it. And I had a 95 town car that had close to 450 thousand miles and I can honestly say it never failed me and only went through 2 window motors and the rest was routine maintanence. These are all limo cars so thats why they get so many miles in so little time:werd: Crown Victorias (just look at all of the extremely beaten on and abused police cars and taxi cabs still running strong) and Grand Marquis aren't too far behind either. :nod:

And yes, as far as pure luxury and roominess, Town Cars (and the older big Cadillacs) have always been almost like driving around in your living room. :)

Jakes Dad
01-22-2009, 01:15 PM
"Clearly I haven't driven any of your fun to drive sedans" wrong

I haven't kept track of the number of vehicles I've sold, really doesn't matter. I began in the auto business in 1968. I haven't driven the G-8.

Most recently I evaluated all used cars at the dealership to confirm they were worth spending the money on to become part of our inventory. Or walked through each used car we bought with a ASA mechanic confirming repair costs to bring used car up to our dealership standards. I was paid to do this what do you do for a living?

Bottom line I value your opinion............. My opinion differs from yours. All of your hot cars are expensive to keep on the road. I would be happy to allow you to sell new Chevrolets or used cars for 30 days in Ohio if you're interested.

Jakes Dad

Jakes Dad
01-23-2009, 10:05 AM
I seldom check this site from home. Today I was interested in seeing if anyone wanted a job in the auto industry.

Please remember, even I am not correct 100% of the time. My attitudes stem from the following facts. On every issue there is always a right way, wrong way, and my way.

Jakes Dad

JD_AMG
01-23-2009, 07:01 PM
"Clearly I haven't driven any of your fun to drive sedans" wrong

I haven't kept track of the number of vehicles I've sold, really doesn't matter. I began in the auto business in 1968. I haven't driven the G-8.

Most recently I evaluated all used cars at the dealership to confirm they were worth spending the money on to become part of our inventory. Or walked through each used car we bought with a ASA mechanic confirming repair costs to bring used car up to our dealership standards. I was paid to do this what do you do for a living?

Bottom line I value your opinion............. My opinion differs from yours. All of your hot cars are expensive to keep on the road. I would be happy to allow you to sell new Chevrolets or used cars for 30 days in Ohio if you're interested.

Jakes Dad

So you've driven(by driven I mean more than through the car lot, try on a winding back road) newer (newer than 1990) BMW, Audi, MB, Subaru etc. sedans and not enjoyed yourself in them, or at least enjoy yourself more than in a sloppy FWD sedan?
Honestly I don't believe you because quite frankly you wouldn't be making the stupid comments if you had driven such cars.

Jakes Dad
01-27-2009, 02:11 PM
Thanks for the vote of confidence. Starting today I'll keep of log of what I drive and how I liked it.

Normally, I never drive a private, dealership - new or used vehicle hard. My attitude has always been why abuse a vehicle someone else is going to buy?

I read every car magazine that comes through the dealership. That's good enough for me.

I think you're missing my point. I obviously am missing yours. I'll close with this. The four door sports sedans that are fun to drive, according to you, aren't sellers. ie the market is too small. Most folks with children aren't interested in driving above the speed limits on straight or non straight roads.

All new cars and trucks are fun to drive. Thanks for the conversation.:chug:

:angel: Jakes Dad

JD_AMG
01-28-2009, 04:09 PM
Thanks for the vote of confidence. Starting today I'll keep of log of what I drive and how I liked it.

Normally, I never drive a private, dealership - new or used vehicle hard. My attitude has always been why abuse a vehicle someone else is going to buy?

So just as I thought, only driving the car across the parking lot...
No need to abuse the cars, just take one out on the highway and get a feel for how it drives. The said sports sedans will make the typical large FWD sedan feel like a 1980s barge in comparison.


I read every car magazine that comes through the dealership. That's good enough for me.
So then you know that the big FWD sedans never win (or even come close) when compared to the sports sedans?


I think you're missing my point. I obviously am missing yours. I'll close with this. The four door sports sedans that are fun to drive, according to you, aren't sellers. ie the market is too small.

The BMW 3 series is a seller globally. The cars your trying to defend like the Impala get most of their sales figures from rental car lots, company fleet cars, taxi and police cars...


Most folks with children aren't interested in driving above the speed limits on straight or non straight roads.

Right,and that's why most of the population who own performance cars are married with children? And who said anything about speeding?

LS1LT1
01-28-2009, 06:22 PM
The BMW 3 series is a seller globally. The cars your trying to defend like the Impala get most of their sales figures from rental car lots, company fleet cars, taxi and police cars...Oh, and BMW gets none of those "globally sold" 3 series sales figures from rental fleets and taxi services as well?:huh:
Been to Europe lately? :lol:

Jakes Dad
01-29-2009, 12:34 PM
JD AMG

I still say the average 4 door sedan is bought by a family making 65K or less. These FWD cars are fun to drive..

People don't care how a car sells globally. Many young folks are too image orientated. Price, size, ride, looks, cost to operate are selling points.

YOUR BMW makes a M3 Sedan. Cost 59K. goes through skidpad .95 slalom 72.9
Chev makes a LTZ Malubu 28K .81 63.8
YOUR AUDI A53.2 Quattro 48K .91 67.1
YOUR MERC E320 59K .83 62.0
YOUR G35 36K .88 67.3
YOUR WRX 28K .87 67

Thank gXX for magazines tests.

It's been a long time since GM, Ford, or Chrysler have introduced a new model that replaced a previous model where there weren't improvements. A fun to drive 4 door vehicle doesn't need to cost more than 28K, or be RWD or AWD drive to transport people.

If you want to be thrilled all the time try an amusement park.

Jakes Dad

JD_AMG
01-31-2009, 07:22 PM
Oh, and BMW gets none of those "globally sold" 3 series sales figures from rental fleets and taxi services as well?:huh:
Been to Europe lately? :lol:

If Im not mistaken 5 and 7 series are used as taxis, not the 3 series. And unless its a higher end rental lot, you're only going to find POS FWD hatches to rent over there.

JD_AMG
01-31-2009, 07:42 PM
JD AMG

I still say the average 4 door sedan is bought by a family making 65K or less. These FWD cars are fun to drive..

People don't care how a car sells globally. Many young folks are too image orientated. Price, size, ride, looks, cost to operate are selling points.

YOUR BMW makes a M3 Sedan. Cost 59K. goes through skidpad .95 slalom 72.9
Chev makes a LTZ Malubu 28K .81 63.8
YOUR AUDI A53.2 Quattro 48K .91 67.1
YOUR MERC E320 59K .83 62.0
YOUR G35 36K .88 67.3
YOUR WRX 28K .87 67

Thank gXX for magazines tests.

Why exactly are you comparing the top of the line (MANY class above your "competition" listed) cars to lower level cars?
And what exactly are you trying to show by posting skidpad and slalom figures?

Try this one for fairness.
BMW 328i $33,175
INFINITI G35 SPORT $33,115
MERCEDES C300 SPORT $31,975
AUDI A4 $29,675
Cadillac CTS $32,990
Lexus IS $31,980
MB C-Class $32,975
Pontiac G8 $28,875
WRX $24,995
Subaru Legacy $21,140

These are fun to drive sedans for relatively cheap (and even the bare bones base models are fun to drive).
This is from Car&Driver's database.


It's been a long time since GM, Ford, or Chrysler have introduced a new model that replaced a previous model where there weren't improvements.

Never said they haven't done so. For the most part they are making huge improvements, but that is in no way the point I am trying to make. I am in no way shape or form attacking the big 3, but rather attacking over weight/over sized FWD sedans.


A fun to drive 4 door vehicle doesn't need to cost more than 28K,

Yep, just as I have shown.

or be RWD or AWD drive to transport people.

Sorry but all else equal(I must emphasize this before anyone trys to compare a lame RWD vehicle to a less lame FWD vehcle) a FWD car will not be near as fun to drive as a RWD or AWD car. NOT just because of performance (lack of) but because of feel and control over the car.


If you want to be thrilled all the time try an amusement park.
Jakes Dad
And you wonder why you're not selling cars...

25psi
02-02-2009, 09:22 AM
Why exactly are you comparing the top of the line (MANY class above your "competition" listed) cars to lower level cars?
And what exactly are you trying to show by posting skidpad and slalom figures?

Try this one for fairness.
BMW 328i $33,175
INFINITI G35 SPORT $33,115
MERCEDES C300 SPORT $31,975
AUDI A4 $29,675
Cadillac CTS $32,990
Lexus IS $31,980
MB C-Class $32,975
Pontiac G8 $28,875
WRX $24,995
Subaru Legacy $21,140

These are fun to drive sedans for relatively cheap (and even the bare bones base models are fun to drive).
This is from Car&Driver's database.


Never said they haven't done so. For the most part they are making huge improvements, but that is in no way the point I am trying to make. I am in no way shape or form attacking the big 3, but rather attacking over weight/over sized FWD sedans.


Yep, just as I have shown.

Sorry but all else equal(I must emphasize this before anyone trys to compare a lame RWD vehicle to a less lame FWD vehcle) a FWD car will not be near as fun to drive as a RWD or AWD car. NOT just because of performance (lack of) but because of feel and control over the car.


And you wonder why you're not selling cars...


I can't believe this. Am I actually agreeing with you :D Good points on all accounts.

kain01
02-08-2009, 08:58 PM
I'm not going to sit here and say that the big three haven't been shooting themselves in the foot for a long time, but let's look at the successes they do have.

New Malibu is the North American Car of the Year, The CTS was before that., the Cobalt SS sedan just got second place in an eight car comparison in Motor Trend, the Silverado and and Sierra are the best selling trucks in the world pretty much since they've been selling (combined they almost double the F150), the new v6 Camaro has been compared to a G37 and a 3 series instead of a Mustang, and the New ZR1 Vette is handing every sports car over 200k it's ass.

The new Fusion Hybrid gets better mileage than the Camry hybrid, The upcoming Taurus is already being proclaimed the new standard for the big three's car's, the new F150 is still doubling the sales of the Tundra, the Explorer sport trac sells hand over fist even though it's truck bed is useless, and if they ever truly get the Euro spec focus here they'd have a world class compact.

Detroit can make car's they have just been out of the business for so long it took them a minute to remember it. If it isn't too late, and they can manage to change their public perception (I've yet to own a Camry that impressed me and I've owned an 05 and an 07, about the same quality as my 00 Malibu, just looked prettier, and the Toyota's were in the shop more) they should do really well.

I also don't understand why a car brand that averages over 300 warranty repairs per 100 vehicles sold over the course of three years sells well enough to survive here (jd power dependability tests = hyundai/kia, at least hyundai the infiniti/lexus competitor only averages 250+). It's all about image.

kain01
02-08-2009, 09:11 PM
JD AMG

I still say the average 4 door sedan is bought by a family making 65K or less. These FWD cars are fun to drive..

People don't care how a car sells globally. Many young folks are too image orientated. Price, size, ride, looks, cost to operate are selling points.

YOUR BMW makes a M3 Sedan. Cost 59K. goes through skidpad .95 slalom 72.9
Chev makes a LTZ Malubu 28K .81 63.8
YOUR AUDI A53.2 Quattro 48K .91 67.1
YOUR MERC E320 59K .83 62.0
YOUR G35 36K .88 67.3
YOUR WRX 28K .87 67

Thank gXX for magazines tests.

It's been a long time since GM, Ford, or Chrysler have introduced a new model that replaced a previous model where there weren't improvements. A fun to drive 4 door vehicle doesn't need to cost more than 28K, or be RWD or AWD drive to transport people.

If you want to be thrilled all the time try an amusement park.

Jakes Dad

Those number's only hurt your argument btw, compare the CTS/G8 to those cars not a FWD Malibu. The Bu only comes close to the E320, and considering that is an almost 4700 lb land whale, it's not impressive.

Chevrolet has no competitor to the car's you listed, except the Cobalt Vs. WRX, which the Cobalt SS just won in Mxxxx Txxxx. On a circuit track, not 1/4. The only thing they have that is RWD is the Vette until the Camaro comes out, and neither are competitor's to the car's you listed.

If you do sell Chevrolet vehicles, keep your comparison's where they should be,

Cobalt = Civic/Corolla
Malibu = Camry/Accord
Impala = Avalon (and don't try to sell someone the SS unless they ask you about it)

Oh you should also maybe look up some gm inside news sites so if a customer walks in asking you about upcoming models you have an inkling of an idea of what's going on. I went to six different dealerships and asked about the upcoming ZR1 and none of them knew anything about a supercharged Corvette. WHY DO YOU WORK FOR CHEVROLET IF YOU DON'T KNOW THE PRODUCTS?????!!!!!!!

Ok, that last comment wasn't directed at you specifically, but seriously know your job or let people who know the industry in to try and help it.

phirepower
02-09-2009, 09:40 AM
Of course America can make decent sedans, ever been in a 300M, my mom has an 02' and the car has been nothing but excellent, for the family. Comfortable, spacious, reliable, decent efficiency, and reasonably quick. And has handsome looks as well

Jakes Dad
02-13-2009, 09:09 AM
Those number's only hurt your argument btw, compare the CTS/G8 to those cars not a FWD Malibu. MY ARGUEMENT HAS BEEN YOU DON'T NEED TO SPEND THE EXTRA MONEY FOR A NON DOMESTIC RWD VEHICLE THAT COSTS MORE TO HAVE A FUN CAR TO DRIVE..

Chevrolet has no competitor to the car's you listed. WOW YOU'RE AS SHARP AS A TACK. YOU'RE RIGHT CHEVROLET VEHICLES DON'T COST AS MUCH AS THE ONES I LISTED

If you do sell Chevrolet vehicles, keep your comparison's where they should be. THIS THREAD WAS ABOUT 4 DOOR SEDANS. NOT A GENERAL OPINION ON THE AUTO INDUSTRY.

Oh you should also maybe look up some gm inside news sites so if a customer walks in asking you about upcoming models you have an inkling of an idea of what's going on. I went to six different dealerships and asked about the upcoming ZR1 and none of them knew anything about a supercharged Corvette. WHY DO YOU WORK FOR CHEVROLET IF YOU DON'T KNOW THE PRODUCTS?????!!!!!!! ALL CHEVROLET SALES ASSOCIATES, AND EVERY OTHER BRAND, ARE TESTED ON PRODUCT KNOWLEDGE. HOW MANY ZR1 TESTS ARTICLES HAVE THERE BEEN? WHAT COULD YOU POSSIBABLY HAVE WANTED TO KNOW? "GIVE ME A SHOT AT YOUR ALL IMPORTANT QUESTIONS" JAKES DAD :D WHY WOULD ANY COMMISSION SALES ASSOCIATE WASTE TIME TALKING TO ANYONE ABOUT SUCH A LOW VOLUME VEHICLE? I'VE BEEN TELLING THIS BOARD, FOR ALMOST TWO YEARS, MOST CAR GUYS ARE GONE FROM THE AUTO INDUSTRY.

WHY GO TO 6 DEALERSHIPS? YOU'RE A CHEVY GUY! WHY IN THE HELL DON'T YOU KNOW THE OWNER OF YOUR FAVORITE CHEVROLET DEALER? WHO IS YOUR PAST SALES ASSOCIATE? YOU SHOULD KNOW THE PARTS MANAGER ON A FIRST NAME BASIS. I'LL BET YOU DON'T!

WITH THE LIMITED PRODUCTION NUMBERS THE ZR-1 WILL HAVE - ONLY HIGH VOLUME CORVETTE DEALERS WILL HAVE INFORMATION. LET ME GIVE YOU A LITTLE HINT. WHEN YOU ARE INTERESTED IN A 100K VEHICLE DO A LITTLE LEG WORK. TRY THE INTERNET - PHONE - FIND OUT WHO AT THE DEALERSHIP BEST KNOWS ABOUT THE PRODUCT YOU'RE INTERESTED IN. DON'T DRIVE TO THE DEALERSHIP IN YOUR UGO OR WHAT EVER. DON'T PULL YOUR PANTS UP THREE TIMES FROM THE CAR TO THE BUILDING. DON'T DRIVE AROUND THE LOT LOOKING FOR A MODEL.

AND YES I DOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOO SELL CHEVROLETS. NORMALLY USED BECAUSE MY USED CARS STAND OUT. #2 IN THE AREA FOR CERTIFIED GM CARS OUT OF 26 DEALERS. ALL OF THIS HAPPENS IN OHIO. IF YOU WOULD LIKE TO CHANGE THE WORLD OF AUTOMOBILE SALES I'LL GET YOU A JOB.

Ok, that last comment wasn't directed at you specifically, but seriously know your job or let people who know the industry in to try and help it.

OK YOU MADE THE STATEMENT. SEND ME A PM. IF YOU'RE DRUG FREE AND HAVE A CLEAN DRIVING RECORD I'LL MAKE YOU A STAR!:confused:

:angel: JAKES DAD

Sinner
02-14-2009, 08:54 PM
I think Mercedes makes the best sedans around. They have second to none build quality,

If by second to none you mean the next step up above no build quality you're right.

Mercedes builds the most unreliable luxury cars in the world. They're worse built than their German counterparts(which aside from Porsche suck balls as it is) as well as both GM and Ford's new products.

Expensive doesn't equal well built.

LEO
02-14-2009, 09:09 PM
If by second to none you mean the next step up above no build quality you're right.

Mercedes builds the most unreliable luxury cars in the world. They're worse built than their German counterparts(which aside from Porsche suck balls as it is) as well as both GM and Ford's new products.

Expensive doesn't equal well built.

Ever get inside a ten year old Mercedes? They feel sturdy and the materials handle wear and tear better then any other sedans I can think of. I've had plenty of friends that have owned them and they love them. What is your idea or better yet which brand do you feel stands above the rest? However, I'm sure you would prefer a 1998 Cavalier because as you said expensive doesn't equal well built. What about those well built Kia's to suit your taste.

Irunelevens
02-14-2009, 11:26 PM
Yeah, I don't know wtf that guy is talking about.

DiscerningZ32
02-15-2009, 03:04 AM
If by second to none you mean the next step up above no build quality you're right.

Mercedes builds the most unreliable luxury cars in the world. They're worse built than their German counterparts(which aside from Porsche suck balls as it is) as well as both GM and Ford's new products.

Expensive doesn't equal well built.

I hope you're not trying to say Porsches are reliable anywhere in that fuddled statement.

LS1LT1
02-15-2009, 03:14 AM
Ever get inside a ten year old Mercedes? They feel sturdy and the materials handle wear and tear better then any other sedans I can think of.That does apply to some models (the S Class for one maybe) yes, but go ask the average first generation ML320 owner what they think about Mercedes Benz reliability/dependability/build quality LOL. :lol:
Those things were horrible. :nono:

Irunelevens
02-15-2009, 12:04 PM
You know the worst part of talking shit about ML320 build quality, and how Honda/Toyota have not been as well-built in the past 5-10 years? That's when Honda/Toyota started building a lot of their cars in America, and the ML320 was one of Benz's first automobiles assembled here...

LEO
02-15-2009, 07:50 PM
You know the worst part of talking shit about ML320 build quality, and how Honda/Toyota have not been as well-built in the past 5-10 years? That's when Honda/Toyota started building a lot of their cars in America, and the ML320 was one of Benzes first automobiles assembled here...

Good point. I'm saying in general Mercedes makes the best sedans. However, America is making more stylish, reliable and better overall sedans then they have in the past. I'm liking this trend.

Irunelevens
02-15-2009, 07:52 PM
Yeah I know, that was in response to LS1LT1

LEO
02-15-2009, 07:56 PM
I was agreeing with you.

LS1LT1
02-16-2009, 03:04 AM
You know the worst part of talking shit about ML320 build quality, and how Honda/Toyota have not been as well-built in the past 5-10 years? That's when Honda/Toyota started building a lot of their cars in America, and the ML320 was one of Benz's first automobiles assembled here...Ahhh, and therein lies the rub.

So often when confronted by those who go off on people for buying their Toyotas/Hondas/BMWs/Mercedes, the response from those owners is all too often "yeah, well, it was made in Kentucky, Ohio, South Carolina, Alabama etc so it's ok, I actually did buy an American car, see".
Yet when the quality/reliability of these very same vehicles gets questioned then all of a sudden the response is "well, it's made in the U.S. so what do you expect".
Quite interesting that the very same answer can be utilized in response to two entirely separate criticisms...how convenient. :lol:
Ya can't have it both ways bro.

LEO
02-16-2009, 07:26 AM
Try reading post #45, I said that America is making better sedans, not the best. As in improved over previous years. :D

Irunelevens
02-16-2009, 09:41 AM
Ahhh, and therein lies the rub.

So often when confronted by those who go off on people for buying their Toyotas/Hondas/BMWs/Mercedes, the response from those owners is all too often "yeah, well, it was made in Kentucky, Ohio, South Carolina, Alabama etc so it's ok, I actually did buy an American car, see".
Yet when the quality/reliability of these very same vehicles gets questioned then all of a sudden the response is "well, it's made in the U.S. so what do you expect".
Quite interesting that the very same answer can be utilized in response to two entirely separate criticisms...how convenient. :lol:
Ya can't have it both ways bro.

I just said it was an interesting situation. My Frontier was made in America, and I have nothing but praise for it, and I personally don't have any problems with the other Hondas/Toyotas/Nissans/Benzes/BMWs/etc made in America. BUT; the apparent "decline" in build quality and reliability of all those brands did start happening when they moved production to the US. That's a hard statistic.

kain01
02-16-2009, 09:08 PM
QUOTE=Jakes Dad;MY ARGUEMENT HAS BEEN YOU DON'T NEED TO SPEND THE EXTRA MONEY FOR A NON DOMESTIC RWD VEHICLE THAT COSTS MORE TO HAVE A FUN CAR TO DRIVE..No you can get a G8 or CTS a RWD luxury vehicle to compete with RWD luxury vehicle'syou listed, the Malibu is not in their price range, not in the sports performance range, or in the sane driving experience range.

WOW YOU'RE AS SHARP AS A TACK. YOU'RE RIGHT CHEVROLET VEHICLES DON'T COST AS MUCH AS THE ONES I LISTED. You listed a midsize economy car to compete against European luxury cars, that, by the way, have been the standard of the world for over 20 years in sedan luxury and performance. Drive one. (I am by the way the biggest supporter for GM you will ever see and firnly believe the CTS and G8 kick those cars buttt)

THIS THREAD WAS ABOUT 4 DOOR SEDANS. NOT A GENERAL OPINION ON THE AUTO INDUSTRY. 4 door econoboxes, and you threw in the RWD luxury supercars.

WHY DO YOU WORK FOR CHEVROLET IF YOU DON'T KNOW THE PRODUCTS?????!!!!!!! ALL CHEVROLET SALES ASSOCIATES, AND EVERY OTHER BRAND, ARE TESTED ON PRODUCT KNOWLEDGE. HOW MANY ZR1 TESTS ARTICLES HAVE THERE BEEN? WHAT COULD YOU POSSIBABLY HAVE WANTED TO KNOW? "GIVE ME A SHOT AT YOUR ALL IMPORTANT QUESTIONS" JAKES DAD WHY WOULD ANY COMMISSION SALES ASSOCIATE WASTE TIME TALKING TO ANYONE ABOUT SUCH A LOW VOLUME VEHICLE? I'VE BEEN TELLING THIS BOARD, FOR ALMOST TWO YEARS, MOST CAR GUYS ARE GONE FROM THE AUTO INDUSTRY. Then the people I talked to failed those test's. They didn't even have the everyday posted information from GMInsisdenews (where I get my info). It's retarded to sell something you are not passionate about. My question was a simple one actually. In small conversation I asked if he knew about the new LS9 engine. He said he had never heard of it.

WHY GO TO 6 DEALERSHIPS? YOU'RE A CHEVY GUY! WHY IN THE HELL DON'T YOU KNOW THE OWNER OF YOUR FAVORITE CHEVROLET DEALER? WHO IS YOUR PAST SALES ASSOCIATE? YOU SHOULD KNOW THE PARTS MANAGER ON A FIRST NAME BASIS. I'LL BET YOU DON'T! LMAO, Pay attention. I have yet to be to a dealership that knows more about their product than I do. And I don't work for GM at all.

WITH THE LIMITED PRODUCTION NUMBERS THE ZR-1 WILL HAVE - ONLY HIGH VOLUME CORVETTE DEALERS WILL HAVE INFORMATION. LET ME GIVE YOU A LITTLE HINT. WHEN YOU ARE INTERESTED IN A 100K VEHICLE DO A LITTLE LEG WORK. TRY THE INTERNET - PHONE - FIND OUT WHO AT THE DEALERSHIP BEST KNOWS ABOUT THE PRODUCT YOU'RE INTERESTED IN. DON'T DRIVE TO THE DEALERSHIP IN YOUR UGO OR WHAT EVER. DON'T PULL YOUR PANTS UP THREE TIMES FROM THE CAR TO THE BUILDING. DON'T DRIVE AROUND THE LOT LOOKING FOR A MODEL. I refuse to waste my time with a dealerships salesmen. If I want a car I find it on autotrader walk on the lot and buy it after a test drive and I inspect it. Your job is to say yes or no when I ask you if you have something. If I don't know what I'm looking for I shouldn't be at a lot.

AND YES I DOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOO SELL CHEVROLETS. NORMALLY USED BECAUSE MY USED CARS STAND OUT. #2 IN THE AREA FOR CERTIFIED GM CARS OUT OF 26 DEALERS. ALL OF THIS HAPPENS IN OHIO. IF YOU WOULD LIKE TO CHANGE THE WORLD OF AUTOMOBILE SALES I'LL GET YOU A JOB. Whoopdy doo. I wasn't attacking you personally so don't get all offended. I was sharing with you my experiences with the dealerships in my area. I doubt you sell cars in KY, so calm down.

Ok, that last comment wasn't directed at you specifically, but seriously know your job or let people who know the industry in to try and help it.
OK YOU MADE THE STATEMENT. SEND ME A PM. IF YOU'RE DRUG FREE AND HAVE A CLEAN DRIVING RECORD I'LL MAKE YOU A STAR!:confused:


LOL I'm on this board which means I drive one of the heaviest targeted cars in the world for speeding tickets. So my driving record blows. Again I didn't attack you specifically, but there is no comparison to a BMW 3/Infiniti G37/Audi A6 and a Malibu. The Malibu is a superb car, but those cars are like comparing the Cobalt SS to an Aston Martin Vantage. They are specifically designed to be performance luxury sedans and the Malibu is not. That is my main point. Keep the Malibu's/Fusion's/Camry's Accord's together. And the 3's/A6's/G37's/CTS' together.

kain01
02-16-2009, 09:20 PM
I seldom check this site from home. Today I was interested in seeing if anyone wanted a job in the auto industry.

Please remember, even I am not correct 100% of the time. My attitudes stem from the following facts. On every issue there is always a right way, wrong way, and my way.

Jakes Dad

I'd love a job in the auto industry, but my driving record means I can't get salesman insurance (I've tried). If nothing else I'd love to just go around and educate people on upcoming products. I keep up with the auto shows and told a person that works at the Georgetown Toyota pkant the other day he's getting a new 2.5 4 cylinder engine for the Camry, and he found out about it a week later.

petechapter50
02-17-2009, 05:15 PM
let me point out the point that everyone is missing on this thread. if you're on this thread then you're a car guy. you don't think like the rest of the world when it comes to cars. you're talking about fun to drive and performance when the majority of america ...and the world doesent give a shit! look at the camry. have you ever driven a camry? it is probiblly the lamest car to drive ever! absolutlly no fun. fwd and no power. they handle like shit and don't even have the power to spin the tires at all. hell i think the inside of them sucks too. but they sell like hot cakes! the moral of the story is america gm is trying to build quality cars for people like us but the reality people are idiots and want shitboxes like the camry

Irunelevens
02-17-2009, 11:48 PM
Um... have you ever driven a Camry/Accord? It's not a "shitbox," just because it's not a performance car.

LS1LT1
02-18-2009, 03:50 AM
Um... have you ever driven a Camry/Accord? It's not a "shitbox," just because it's not a performance car.True, definitely not shitboxes...but I think his point is that they are simply 'refrigerators on wheels', basic appliances for getting from point A to point B which is essentially true.

DannoWS6
02-18-2009, 07:14 AM
I've owned / driven a lot of nice reliable domestic sedans.

I had a 92 Chevy lumina with over 230k miles on it when I was a teen, Had my bro not wrapped it around a tree it might still be running.

My brother had a 2000 GTP GP, nice car I thought, 3800's are reliable and offer great power S/C.

My Mom Had a GTP Comp G, that was a nice car and good fit and finish.
She now has an 06 Impala LT, which is a solid car. (no comp G though)

Just to throw it in the mix I even had a 93 Jeep Cherokee which I beat on and I traded it in just over a year ago (that truck just kept going), for my Bonneville GXP, again another nice domestic sedan.

I've been in and driven Corrolas and Camry's and compared to the domestic counterparts I really don't care for them. Sure I am a little biased, but I like the styling better and the power plant options. Plus I'd rather wrench on a domestic vehicle any day of the week. I think they are cheaper to maintain and buy parts for as well.

Pontiac has always put in the extra effort over chevy to make things a bit nicer, but the new Malibus are really nice car's. I would consider one for what we all call an "econobox" car.

I even test drive a Cobalt SS (S/C), and compared to say a mazda 3 I drove, I liked it better in every way. My wife has a 06 G6 coupe, she loves it, coming from a toyota celica.

I think a lot of it has to do with how you maintain and keep your car's. If you have any half decent car and you take care of it and not beat it all day long it will last a long time. Domestic and Imports have their share of failures. I will admit the interiors in domestics have come a long way in the last 10 years.

Irunelevens
02-18-2009, 11:18 AM
All I'm saying (and all I've been saying) is that there used to be a large quality gap, up until fairly recently. Like, 5 years ago kinda recently. If you argue that, you're only kidding yourself. Even the automakers acknowledge that. Like the GM commercials that have a car in shadows talking about it's great features, and then it will light up and say, "The blah blah blah... made by GM. Surprised?" That's them saying, "I know you would never expect us to make something this good, but look how far we've come." For something to come far, it has to be far away to begin with. It's not like I'm insulting the cars for acknowledging their shortcomings. One of my favorite cars (C4 Corvette) is far from perfect, and falls short in many categories. It doesn't stop me from loving the cars, but for me to put them up on a pedestal just because I love them is ridiculous.

DannoWS6
02-18-2009, 01:48 PM
LOL I think that was the saturn commercial. Which before they were owned by GM they were throw away cars for sure.

kain01
02-18-2009, 03:06 PM
LOL I think that was the saturn commercial. Which before they were owned by GM they were throw away cars for sure.

Saturn has been owned by GM since they opened there doors in 1985. They have been a throw away brand until the Saturn Aura came out, and any exec with a brain would've canceled this failure long before 2001.

Irunelevens
02-18-2009, 03:44 PM
LOL I think that was the saturn commercial. Which before they were owned by GM they were throw away cars for sure.

Saturn has been owned by GM since they opened there doors in 1985. They have been a throw away brand until the Saturn Aura came out, and any exec with a brain would've canceled this failure long before 2001.

Yeah, Saturn was STARTED by GM (I don't know how anybody doesn't know that), and it wasn't a "Saturn commercial." There are several of them, about several different GM cars.

TT632
02-18-2009, 04:13 PM
Ahhh, and therein lies the rub.

So often when confronted by those who go off on people for buying their Toyotas/Hondas/BMWs/Mercedes, the response from those owners is all too often "yeah, well, it was made in Kentucky, Ohio, South Carolina, Alabama etc so it's ok, I actually did buy an American car, see".
Yet when the quality/reliability of these very same vehicles gets questioned then all of a sudden the response is "well, it's made in the U.S. so what do you expect".
Quite interesting that the very same answer can be utilized in response to two entirely separate criticisms...how convenient. :lol:
Ya can't have it both ways bro.

The whole Japanese assembly plant vs. German assembly. vs. Mexican assembly plant difference in quality is pretty much bunk. If you have been to an assembly plant in Japan, the US, or Mexico, there is almost no difference. 95% of the time, sub-component failure is what typically is at fault when there is an issue. I have worked in an Engineering capacity, conducting comparative studies for an American and a Japanese OEM and can speak to this first hand, not from internet rumor.

There is no hard data that shows a plant in Japan vs. a plant in the US producing the same vehicle yields a vehicle of better quality. If this data does exist, it is held by the OEMs and is not likely available for your review. Show me the data if you can find it, and survey research by JD powers doesn't cut it. I’ve conducted correlation studies on the same vehicles being assembled in Japan and the US, and final results were within normal vehicle to vehicle variation. I’ve conducted a similar study on a vehicle that was being produced in Mexico vs. a US plant that yielded the same results. Prejudices slanted against the ability of American workers are behind this attitude and I'm sure against Mexican assembled vehicles also (No one can install a bolt like a German though:chug:!). Foreign car advocates typically perpetuate these myths for whatever warped reason they have.

kain01
02-18-2009, 06:31 PM
Yeah, Saturn was STARTED by GM (I don't know how anybody doesn't know that), and it wasn't a "Saturn commercial." There are several of them, about several different GM cars.

Actually a few people were confused because when the Tennessee plant was started back in the 80's it was a non union plant. Which of course = non American plant in most people's minds. But yes there are people out there that think Saturn was really a Japanese company at one point. I know of two people personally. Thankfully they know nothing of the automotive business in general, and will admit it.