Window Motor..Thermal Bypass Mod
01-25-2009, 01:26 AM
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Window Motor..Thermal Bypass Mod Ok..
About 2 months ago, I replaced the drivers side window motor in my gfs 2000 Camaro. It worked great for about 3 weeks and then died. I put off replacing it for a few weeks..We bought both driver/pass side motors at the same time and I hadn't installed the pass. side yet since it was still working. So I used the motor that was supposed to be for the pass side and replaced the drivers side again about 3 days ago..Works great..Then we come to today a few days later we go to visit my mom in the hospital..get there and the window won't roll up! I couldn't believe it.
So we get home..I pull everything apart AGAIN. I still have the original motor that was in the car, it was replaced because it was just really slow but hadn't completely stopped working yet.
So I take the top plastic part that has the brushes/springs/thermal crap in it out of the old one and put it on the new one that just died and plug it back in without installing it. Surer than ****, the motor works.
So..The actual motor itself is not dead. I decide to try the thermal bypass mod which I had remembered reading about a long *** time ago..However I noticed something odd.
The black one is from the original window motor, as you can see it has solder on the left side. The white one is from the new replacement motor which is not soldered. If you don't know what the thermal bypass mod is, then you might not realize why I thought this was strange.
Sorry about the crappy camera phone picture.
About 2 months ago, I replaced the drivers side window motor in my gfs 2000 Camaro. It worked great for about 3 weeks and then died. I put off replacing it for a few weeks..We bought both driver/pass side motors at the same time and I hadn't installed the pass. side yet since it was still working. So I used the motor that was supposed to be for the pass side and replaced the drivers side again about 3 days ago..Works great..Then we come to today a few days later we go to visit my mom in the hospital..get there and the window won't roll up! I couldn't believe it.
So we get home..I pull everything apart AGAIN. I still have the original motor that was in the car, it was replaced because it was just really slow but hadn't completely stopped working yet.
So I take the top plastic part that has the brushes/springs/thermal crap in it out of the old one and put it on the new one that just died and plug it back in without installing it. Surer than ****, the motor works.
So..The actual motor itself is not dead. I decide to try the thermal bypass mod which I had remembered reading about a long *** time ago..However I noticed something odd.
The black one is from the original window motor, as you can see it has solder on the left side. The white one is from the new replacement motor which is not soldered. If you don't know what the thermal bypass mod is, then you might not realize why I thought this was strange.
Sorry about the crappy camera phone picture.
01-25-2009, 11:08 AM
#3
Too many people replace their window motors when that is not what they really need. The thermal protection is there for a reason, if it is kicking in and slowing down/stopping the motor, it might be because there is too much resistance to the window going up. I would try lubricating all the moving parts as best as possible (I realize access is difficult). Also, the thermal resistor can be replaced if it has failed, and I would guess it probably does fail if the motor has been has been struggling for a long time. Here's a write-up on that:
http://nikon.250free.com/window/index.htm
http://nikon.250free.com/window/index.htm
01-25-2009, 11:16 AM
#4
Too many people replace their window motors when that is not what they really need. The thermal protection is there for a reason, if it is kicking in and slowing down/stopping the motor, it might be because there is too much resistance to the window going up. I would try lubricating all the moving parts as best as possible (I realize access is difficult). Also, the thermal resistor can be replaced if it has failed, and I would guess it probably does fail if the motor has been has been struggling for a long time. Here's a write-up on that:
http://nikon.250free.com/window/index.htm
http://nikon.250free.com/window/index.htm
IMO The window motors build up resistance when the commutator gets packed full of garbage.
I cleaned my motor up, bypassed the thermal strip, didn't touch the window mechanism. Been working fine since.
See how the commutator looks like it's one piece?
IMO most people could just clean the garbage out of the commutator and fix the problem.
See how deep the grooves are supposed to be.
And to people who think the thermal strip is a safty device to keep you from getting your head or other things stuck in the window (I seen a huge arguement on thi somewhere)
May be true....but f bodies use a frameless window, so if you get your head stuck in it---open the door!
01-25-2009, 05:53 PM
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The key source of the problem is improper voltage to the motors. Do a search on the AutoTrix Window Fix kit.
The factory wiring gauge is too small and too long. When operated together both motors are VERY under powered. The kit can be found at the ws6store. Thousands of kits installed with 100% happy customers.
I personally have 2 cars with 200k and factory motors working great thanks to the kit.
The factory wiring gauge is too small and too long. When operated together both motors are VERY under powered. The kit can be found at the ws6store. Thousands of kits installed with 100% happy customers.
I personally have 2 cars with 200k and factory motors working great thanks to the kit.
01-27-2009, 01:59 PM
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The key source of the problem is improper voltage to the motors. Do a search on the AutoTrix Window Fix kit.
The factory wiring gauge is too small and too long. When operated together both motors are VERY under powered. The kit can be found at the ws6store. Thousands of kits installed with 100% happy customers.
I personally have 2 cars with 200k and factory motors working great thanks to the kit.
The factory wiring gauge is too small and too long. When operated together both motors are VERY under powered. The kit can be found at the ws6store. Thousands of kits installed with 100% happy customers.
I personally have 2 cars with 200k and factory motors working great thanks to the kit.
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01-27-2009, 02:04 PM
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01-27-2009, 02:37 PM
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The main problem with the circuit is both windows sharing it. Once the passenger side is isolated there is a very small voltage drop for the driver side. Depending on the temperatures and the battery some people have no problem with the driver side after the passenger kit.
01-27-2009, 03:57 PM
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That switch detects when the motor reaches end of travel and keeps the voltage spike from surging thru the circuit.
The average person will stop holding the switch when its obvious the window is down/up, however if you were to ever hold the switch down for any length of time after this the motor is going to effectivly create a direct short to ground and could cause melting issues,blown fuses or worst case a fire. The wires are designed for a certian amperage and once that is reached the resistance will create heat and that will melt things and blow fuses.
This is a worst case scenario thing but removing that switch is WAY more of a bandaid than isolating the window on its own circuit and powering it properly.
I'm not trying to scare you or anything, you will most likely be fine. For the average person the best route is to run proper wiring to the motor instead of taking it out and modifying it.
01-27-2009, 05:59 PM
#14
Not true at all.
After I removed my thermal switch I plugged the motor in.
Hit the express down button and it never stops, I squeezed the gear with my hand, heard a click under the dash and it stopped right away.
I tested motor amp draw with it installed and it spikes up a split second when the window reaches the end of it's travel. Again, thermal switch bypassed.
THERMAL, thats heat. Thermal switches do not control voltage spikes.
I think your theories are wrong.
Sales tactics IMO.
After I removed my thermal switch I plugged the motor in.
Hit the express down button and it never stops, I squeezed the gear with my hand, heard a click under the dash and it stopped right away.
I tested motor amp draw with it installed and it spikes up a split second when the window reaches the end of it's travel. Again, thermal switch bypassed.
THERMAL, thats heat. Thermal switches do not control voltage spikes.
I think your theories are wrong.
Sales tactics IMO.
The motor will most likely have no issues. As to what can be caused by removing that thermal switch is un-known.
That switch detects when the motor reaches end of travel and keeps the voltage spike from surging thru the circuit.
The average person will stop holding the switch when its obvious the window is down/up, however if you were to ever hold the switch down for any length of time after this the motor is going to effectivly create a direct short to ground and could cause melting issues,blown fuses or worst case a fire. The wires are designed for a certian amperage and once that is reached the resistance will create heat and that will melt things and blow fuses.
This is a worst case scenario thing but removing that switch is WAY more of a bandaid than isolating the window on its own circuit and powering it properly.
I'm not trying to scare you or anything, you will most likely be fine. For the average person the best route is to run proper wiring to the motor instead of taking it out and modifying it.
That switch detects when the motor reaches end of travel and keeps the voltage spike from surging thru the circuit.
The average person will stop holding the switch when its obvious the window is down/up, however if you were to ever hold the switch down for any length of time after this the motor is going to effectivly create a direct short to ground and could cause melting issues,blown fuses or worst case a fire. The wires are designed for a certian amperage and once that is reached the resistance will create heat and that will melt things and blow fuses.
This is a worst case scenario thing but removing that switch is WAY more of a bandaid than isolating the window on its own circuit and powering it properly.
I'm not trying to scare you or anything, you will most likely be fine. For the average person the best route is to run proper wiring to the motor instead of taking it out and modifying it.
01-27-2009, 06:42 PM
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Not true at all.
After I removed my thermal switch I plugged the motor in.
Hit the express down button and it never stops, I squeezed the gear with my hand, heard a click under the dash and it stopped right away.
I tested motor amp draw with it installed and it spikes up a split second when the window reaches the end of it's travel. Again, thermal switch bypassed.
THERMAL, thats heat. Thermal switches do not control voltage spikes.
I think your theories are wrong.
Sales tactics IMO.
After I removed my thermal switch I plugged the motor in.
Hit the express down button and it never stops, I squeezed the gear with my hand, heard a click under the dash and it stopped right away.
I tested motor amp draw with it installed and it spikes up a split second when the window reaches the end of it's travel. Again, thermal switch bypassed.
THERMAL, thats heat. Thermal switches do not control voltage spikes.
I think your theories are wrong.
Sales tactics IMO.
What you explained above makes perfect sense when you are talking about the driverside. The driverside has an express down module hence why you said the express down switch. The module basically uses a Zener diode to set the voltage at 10-11volts then it monitors the spike with the PIC on the circuit board and opens the circuit to shut the motor off. The click under the dash was the module relay.
When using the express down the motor will lose power do to that module. When rolling the driver side up or the passenger side either way will result in exactly what I described above if the thermal switch is removed.
Do some research, you will see I'm not full of crap. Also the thermal switch is actually a proxy switch wich is made of up certain metals that will break/open the connection once a certain temperature has been acheived. That temperature is achieved by the increased resistance from the motor being stopped which also causes a voltage spike. Removing it does nothing but remove factory safe guards.
The problem is the increased carbon build up on the brushes, this is something that happens with all electric motors. However, the brushes in each motor are designed for a certain voltage and amperage. If the voltage to the motor is below or above the design threshold the motors will exhibit increased dusting and therefore make the motor "use" more electricity to operate which makes the proxy switch heat up quicker which makes the motor stop early.
01-27-2009, 08:05 PM
#16
I'm with gnomee on this, except for one minor correction. It is a current spike, not voltage spike 
I wish I still had my factory motor from the driver side, the cheapo motor I have in there now has plastic internal gears that strip out
Came in a pair, first one lasted a year then stripped so now I'm on the second motor. To think I could have fixed my original more than likely and saved the $40 
I wish I still had my factory motor from the driver side, the cheapo motor I have in there now has plastic internal gears that strip out
Came in a pair, first one lasted a year then stripped so now I'm on the second motor. To think I could have fixed my original more than likely and saved the $40
01-27-2009, 08:09 PM
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I'm with gnomee on this, except for one minor correction. It is a current spike, not voltage spike
I wish I still had my factory motor from the driver side, the cheapo motor I have in there now has plastic internal gears that strip out Came in a pair, first one lasted a year then stripped so now I'm on the second motor. To think I could have fixed my original more than likely and saved the $40
I wish I still had my factory motor from the driver side, the cheapo motor I have in there now has plastic internal gears that strip out
Came in a pair, first one lasted a year then stripped so now I'm on the second motor. To think I could have fixed my original more than likely and saved the $40 
Thanks for the help!
01-27-2009, 10:47 PM
#18
Well see now you get very technical, I like this better.
I'm just the kind of person who likes to hear the "whys" and not the "just becauses" (if you understand what I mean)
Things make way more sense now that you explained it this way, thanks.
I'm just the kind of person who likes to hear the "whys" and not the "just becauses" (if you understand what I mean)
Things make way more sense now that you explained it this way, thanks.
Whoa! Don't get crazy on me hear. You really need to take a look at the schematic for the circuit before you start accusing me of sales tactics.
What you explained above makes perfect sense when you are talking about the driverside. The driverside has an express down module hence why you said the express down switch. The module basically uses a Zener diode to set the voltage at 10-11volts then it monitors the spike with the PIC on the circuit board and opens the circuit to shut the motor off. The click under the dash was the module relay.
When using the express down the motor will lose power do to that module. When rolling the driver side up or the passenger side either way will result in exactly what I described above if the thermal switch is removed.
Do some research, you will see I'm not full of crap. Also the thermal switch is actually a proxy switch wich is made of up certain metals that will break/open the connection once a certain temperature has been acheived. That temperature is achieved by the increased resistance from the motor being stopped which also causes a voltage spike. Removing it does nothing but remove factory safe guards.
The problem is the increased carbon build up on the brushes, this is something that happens with all electric motors. However, the brushes in each motor are designed for a certain voltage and amperage. If the voltage to the motor is below or above the design threshold the motors will exhibit increased dusting and therefore make the motor "use" more electricity to operate which makes the proxy switch heat up quicker which makes the motor stop early.
What you explained above makes perfect sense when you are talking about the driverside. The driverside has an express down module hence why you said the express down switch. The module basically uses a Zener diode to set the voltage at 10-11volts then it monitors the spike with the PIC on the circuit board and opens the circuit to shut the motor off. The click under the dash was the module relay.
When using the express down the motor will lose power do to that module. When rolling the driver side up or the passenger side either way will result in exactly what I described above if the thermal switch is removed.
Do some research, you will see I'm not full of crap. Also the thermal switch is actually a proxy switch wich is made of up certain metals that will break/open the connection once a certain temperature has been acheived. That temperature is achieved by the increased resistance from the motor being stopped which also causes a voltage spike. Removing it does nothing but remove factory safe guards.
The problem is the increased carbon build up on the brushes, this is something that happens with all electric motors. However, the brushes in each motor are designed for a certain voltage and amperage. If the voltage to the motor is below or above the design threshold the motors will exhibit increased dusting and therefore make the motor "use" more electricity to operate which makes the proxy switch heat up quicker which makes the motor stop early.
01-29-2009, 09:34 AM
#20
it's nice to know that they make one for the driver's side now too...i'll have to look into that. i replaced my driver's side window a few months after i got the car and i wasnt the first (the whole were already drilled into the fiberglass where the factory motor's connections where punched out). but the duralast motor from AZ seems to be working very well.